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Adverse BD reactions with various materials

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  • Adverse BD reactions with various materials

    Can you help complete, correct or add to the list about materials that will adversely react with BD in production or storage:

    Reaction / Material

    ? adhesive: Araldite
    ? adhesive: 739 (DOW Corning)
    N adhesive: LOXEAL 58-11 - seals against oils & other chemicals -50 to 150degC
    ? adhesive: Loctite 567
    ? adhesive: Permatex
    ? adhesive: Selleys Urethane BOND - will not bond to polyproplyene
    ? adhesive: Sikaflex by 3m
    ? adhesive: Stag
    N aluminum
    N black iron
    Y brass
    Y bronze
    N cast iron
    ? chrome
    Y copper
    Y gal
    N HDPE High Density Polyethelene
    Y lead
    Y lexan thermoplastics- degraded by methanol- terminal brittleness.
    N liquid gasket - LOXEAL 58-31 - seals against oils & other chemicals -55 to +200degC
    N O ring: Vitron
    Y O ring: rubber
    Y Paint: 'takes it off like stripper' - source: kamel
    N PET
    Y plastic yoghurt pots: 'melted clean through one when I left it overnight' - source: pangit
    Y Polystyrene cups: 'burns through' - source: casper151
    Y Polycarbonate degraded by methanol-terminal brittleness.
    N PP Polypropelene
    Y PVC
    Y rubber
    ? silicone
    Y solder
    N steel
    Y tin
    ? Vinyl
    N washer/seal/gasket: Vitron
    Y washer/seal/gasket: rubber
    N washer/seal/gasket: synthetic rubber
    Y washer/seal/gasket: lead
    ? washer/seal/gasket: leather

    from the Biodiesel Handling and Use Guide distributed by the US DOE

    Y "Nitrile rubber compounds, polypropylene, polyvinyl and Tygon materials are particularly vulnerable to B100."

    N "Materials such as Teflon, Viton, fluorinated plastics, and Nylon are compatible with B100."

    Y "B100 will degrade, soften, or seep through some hoses, gaskets, seals, elastomers, glues, and plastics with prolonged exposure. "

    N "Most tanks designed to store diesel fuel will store B100 with no problem. Acceptable storage tank materials include aluminum, steel, fluorinated polyethylene, fluorinated polypropylene, TeflonŽ, and most fiberglass."

    Y "Brass, bronze, copper, lead, tin, and zinc may accelerate the oxidation of diesel and biodiesel fuels and potentially create fuel insolubles (sediments) or gels and salts when reacted with some fuel components. Lead solders and zinc linings should be avoided, as should copper pipes, brass regulators, and copper fittings. The fuel or the fittings will tend to change color and insolubles may plug fuel filters. Affected equipment should be replaced with stainless steel, carbon steel, or aluminum."

    G
    gwalker
    Senior Member
    Last edited by gwalker; 17 October 2006, 07:02 PM. Reason: to update list

  • #2
    Re: Adverse BD reactions with various materials

    Not sure what type of plastic yoghurt pots are made from, but BD melted clean through one when I left it overnight!
    Sean

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Adverse BD reactions with various materials

      Burns through Polystyrene cups!

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Adverse BD reactions with various materials

        Paint? Takes it off like stripper.

        Well, I exaggerate. Not quite as good as stripper... but it took the paint off a old oil drum I was using... and the paint off the inside of a Jerry can... and I definately take care not to spill it on the car paintwork...
        Last edited by kamel; 4 October 2006, 03:15 PM.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Adverse BD reactions with various materials

          Hi people,
          I am in the construction phase of turning a 300ltr Solarhart hot water tank into a reactor. I need to reseal the heater element flange and was wondering what type of gasket material to use that will not be affected by bio diesel. I intend to use a two stage process with lye and sulpheric acid. I wan't to make sure that the gasket will not leak under pressure as I intend to use vacuum to reduce the amount of temperature needed to react the bio. The vacuum will also aid in removing water from tallow and WVO before reaction as well as methanol recovery durying reaction.

          If this reactor is sucessful I will run two side by side.

          On another topic I was thinking of using the 1" curculating pump to mix the methoxide (up to 200lts max at a time) in a closed system.
          Or should I use a dedicated pump just for the methoxide?

          It will be used on a farm where there will be several washing tanks (four 1000 ltr pallet tanks) set up along side with in line filteration. I intend to trial the waterless washing method using a filter medium (not sure which one yet). Bentanoite clay from the wine industry and mabor from a pool suplies shop.
          Intend to process about 2000Lts each day (4 batches) with the final system.
          PH testing of the finished bio and a 1 micron final filtering will be enough I hope to satisify the new generation diesel engines in tractors and the like.

          On the filtering point I was considering using a activated charcole water filter for removing any acids left over from the reaction. Can anyone help me with this idea?

          An anti oxidant additive will help with long term storage (I hope) I hear that Bitron diesel conditioner might be suitable. ( a commercial producer is using it at the moment)

          The whole system will be built on a flat top trailer (2.4W by 4mL) to be able to transport between local farms.
          I have a good cheap high quality tallow supply available. The price of canola oil makes it an unviable feed stock this year. (I live in bio- paradise with a couple of large meat processors and a canola crushing mill close by).

          Comments and sugestions welcome.

          Cheers
          Sandman.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Adverse BD reactions with various materials

            Originally posted by Sandman View Post
            Hi people,
            I am in the construction phase of turning a 300ltr Solarhart hot water tank into a reactor. I need to reseal the heater element flange and was wondering what type of gasket material to use that will not be affected by bio diesel. I intend to use a two stage process with lye and sulpheric acid. I wan't to make sure that the gasket will not leak under pressure as I intend to use vacuum to reduce the amount of temperature needed to react the bio. The vacuum will also aid in removing water from tallow and WVO before reaction as well as methanol recovery durying reaction.
            The use of vacuum in the processing will serve no useful purpose. If you wish to use a lower temperature, use it. For every 10°C increase in temperature, the reaction time halves. To decrease the reaction time, some people are using pressure to increase the reaction temperature.
            If this reactor is sucessful I will run two side by side.

            On another topic I was thinking of using the 1" curculating pump to mix the methoxide (up to 200lts max at a time) in a closed system.
            Or should I use a dedicated pump just for the methoxide?

            It will be used on a farm where there will be several washing tanks (four 1000 ltr pallet tanks) set up along side with in line filteration. I intend to trial the waterless washing method using a filter medium (not sure which one yet). Bentanoite clay from the wine industry and mabor from a pool suplies shop.
            Intend to process about 2000Lts each day (4 batches) with the final system.
            PH testing of the finished bio and a 1 micron final filtering will be enough I hope to satisify the new generation diesel engines in tractors and the like.

            On the filtering point I was considering using a activated charcole water filter for removing any acids left over from the reaction. Can anyone help me with this idea?
            There should be no acid in the biodiesel. If you are using a 2 stage (Acid - Base) process, the acid is neutralised as part of the base stage of the process. If you are using the single stage Base process, no acid is used at all.
            An anti oxidant additive will help with long term storage (I hope) I hear that Bitron diesel conditioner might be suitable. ( a commercial producer is using it at the moment)

            The whole system will be built on a flat top trailer (2.4W by 4mL) to be able to transport between local farms.
            I have a good cheap high quality tallow supply available. The price of canola oil makes it an unviable feed stock this year. (I live in bio- paradise with a couple of large meat processors and a canola crushing mill close by).
            In what country and climatic region are you located?
            Comments and sugestions welcome.

            Cheers
            Sandman.
            Life is a journey, with problems to solve, lessons to learn, but most of all, experiences to enjoy.

            Current Vehicles in stable:
            '06 Musso Sports 4X4 Manual Crew Cab tray back.
            '04 Rexton 4X4 Automatic SUV
            '2014 Toyota Prius (on ULP) - Wife's car

            Previous Vehicles:
            '90 Mazda Capella. (2000 - 2003) My first Fatmobile. Converted to fun on veggie oil with a 2 tank setup.
            '80 Mercedes 300D. 2 tank conversion [Sold]
            '84 Mercedes 300D. 1 tank, no conversion. Replaced engine with rebuilt OM617A turbodiesel engine. Finally had good power. Engine donor for W123 coupe. (body parted out and carcass sold for scrap.)
            '85 Mercedes Benz W123 300CD Turbodiesel
            '99 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my darling Wife's car)[sold]
            '98 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my car)[sold]
            '06 Musso Sports Crew Cab well body. [Head gasket blew!]
            '04 Rexton SUV 2.9L Turbodiesel same as Musso - Our Family car.
            '06 Musso sports Crew Cab Trayback - My hack (no air cond, no heater).

            Searching the Biofuels Forum using Google
            Adding images and/or documents to your posts

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Adverse BD reactions with various materials

              Hi Tony,
              Thanks for your feedback. I am new to this as you can probably tell, however I have been tyring to absorbe the new developments in BD processing by reading other forums and digesting their research findings. So theories abound and trials will eventually prove the hypothesis is correct or not.
              The idea of the vacuum is mainly to remove the methanol before the magnesium silicate is added, (the bottom line is that methanol and injector pumps are not compatiable) the other reason is that water and methonol combine and hold soap in suspension in the BD (I think that is the argument, however I might be confused on this point). If I remove all the methanol before adding magnesium silicate the soap will either settle out overnight or will filter out with far less magnesium silicate. The end result will be to reduce the amount of magnesol or magnesium silicate needed to filter out the soaps, and thereby reducing the amount of filtration required to remove the magnesium silicate form the BD.
              I will experiment with pressure and vacuum during reaction to see the benefit is worth the expense. However I feel that vacuum on the outlet of a cooled reflux collum will be effective in removing the unused methanol. I am undecided if a small bubler inside the reaction chamber will aid the flash dyring process by bubble washing the BD for methanol recovery (still researching this). (See www.burlingtonbiodesiel.org);)

              I did remeber a process (in Argentina I think) where vacuum and pressure are used in the reaction process but I can't find it on the net. I think for memory they used 1 bar of pressure to settle the glycerine quicker out of the BD after processing. The Vacuum was used to speed up the reaction time. Perhaps someone can put me right on this.

              By the way can anyone help me with a gasket material that is BD tollerant?
              Also is a curulating pump (see Burlington Biodiesel Coop in Burlington, North Carolina for reactor II design) for methoxide mixing a good idea or is stirring the best method ?

              I live in the South West W.A. about 2.5hrs drive south of Perth just down the road from you Tony. I assume you are alluding to the gell point of tallow feed stock, I have considered this and will experiment with a BD/diesel blend ratio for winter grade BD diesel or will switch to the more expensive canola oil feed stock durying winter months.

              Cheers
              Sandman.
              P.S looking forward to the Sunday meeting in Perth.

              Opps, forgot the filtration medium point.
              I have been reading about the qualities of activated charcole in removing acids and impurities in water and was thinking that if the PH is not netural in the final BD product for some reason (either a stuff up in caculations or basic human error), then the activated charcole would act as a saftey medium to ensure that there were no nasties left in the BD. That was my reasoning.
              Sandman
              Donating Member
              Last edited by Sandman; 6 October 2006, 02:44 PM.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Adverse BD reactions with various materials

                Originally posted by Sandman View Post
                SNIP

                Cheers
                Sandman.
                P.S looking forward to the Sunday meeting in Perth.

                Opps, forgot the filtration medium point.
                I have been reading about the qualities of activated charcole in removing acids and impurities in water and was thinking that if the PH is not netural in the final BD product for some reason (either a stuff up in caculations or basic human error), then the activated charcole would act as a saftey medium to ensure that there were no nasties left in the BD. That was my reasoning.
                Sandman,
                I look forward to seeing you tomorrow.
                Note:
                Biodiesel does not have a pH, nor does vegetable oil, Tallow or any non-aqueous liquid. pH is only valid for an aqueious solution.

                pH can be measured by using an indicator solution (wide range indicators) or by using an electronic pH meter. In determining the FFA content of an oil in preparation to making biodiesel, we titrate to a pH of around 8 - 8.5 This is to ensure complete neutralisation of the FFAs. Indicators used, to provide a colour change in this range, include phenolphthalein and curcurmin (tumeric).

                When biodiesel has been produced, the practice of washing the biodiesel has allowed the wash water to be tested to determine its pH. While wash water with a pH of 9 does not mean that the biodiesel is unusable, it does mean that the water removed sufficient soaps to cause the wash water to have a high pH. If subsequent washes are done, it would be expected that the wash water pH would rapidly approach the pH of the unused wash water. If the biodiesel (alluded to above) were used unwashed, I would expect that the Na or K soaps would increase the ash residues produced by the combustion of this biodiesel.

                Even though you are plannimg to treat the biodiesel without washing, I suggest that a sample of the biodiesel before your treatment and after your treatment should be washed to determine the relative effectiveness of your process.

                Regards,
                Tony
                Life is a journey, with problems to solve, lessons to learn, but most of all, experiences to enjoy.

                Current Vehicles in stable:
                '06 Musso Sports 4X4 Manual Crew Cab tray back.
                '04 Rexton 4X4 Automatic SUV
                '2014 Toyota Prius (on ULP) - Wife's car

                Previous Vehicles:
                '90 Mazda Capella. (2000 - 2003) My first Fatmobile. Converted to fun on veggie oil with a 2 tank setup.
                '80 Mercedes 300D. 2 tank conversion [Sold]
                '84 Mercedes 300D. 1 tank, no conversion. Replaced engine with rebuilt OM617A turbodiesel engine. Finally had good power. Engine donor for W123 coupe. (body parted out and carcass sold for scrap.)
                '85 Mercedes Benz W123 300CD Turbodiesel
                '99 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my darling Wife's car)[sold]
                '98 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my car)[sold]
                '06 Musso Sports Crew Cab well body. [Head gasket blew!]
                '04 Rexton SUV 2.9L Turbodiesel same as Musso - Our Family car.
                '06 Musso sports Crew Cab Trayback - My hack (no air cond, no heater).

                Searching the Biofuels Forum using Google
                Adding images and/or documents to your posts

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Adverse BD reactions with various materials

                  Shouldn't Vitron be No and rubber be Yes?
                  Sean

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Adverse BD reactions with various materials

                    Originally posted by pangit View Post
                    Shouldn't Vitron be No and rubber be Yes?
                    You are correct and I have fixed it!
                    Thanks G

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Adverse BD reactions with various materials

                      Major update to list at top from the Biodiesel Handling Guide by US DOE!
                      G

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Adverse BD reactions with various materials

                        Is it possible to adopt some other scheme in identifying whether a material reacts or not? I find myself asking questions such as, "is it 'Yes', it does react, 'Yes', it doesn't react, or 'Yes', it is safe to use". There is certainly a lot of room for interpretation and I guess it depends how far you look into it.

                        Could we use something like 'REACTIVE' and 'STABLE', or something to that effect?

                        Share your thoughts.

                        Cheers, Steve.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Adverse BD reactions with various materials

                          Originally posted by RASTEVE View Post
                          Is it possible to adopt some other scheme in identifying whether a material reacts or not? I find myself asking questions such as, "is it 'Yes', it does react, 'Yes', it doesn't react, or 'Yes', it is safe to use". There is certainly a lot of room for interpretation and I guess it depends how far you look into it.

                          Could we use something like 'REACTIVE' and 'STABLE', or something to that effect?
                          Share your thoughts.

                          Cheers, Steve.
                          Steve, I agree with you. This is my own search for facts. I'm finding that many 'materials' don't fit easily within Y (reacts) and N (doesn't react). Your suggestion is better, but a continuum between them might be better still. For example, are brass fittings stable enough for 1 batch per week for a year? ..and what gets degraded, the fittings or the fuel? ..and if gal 'flakes off', does the bio oxidise or is it OK and the 'flakes' are washed away anyway?
                          Not being an industrial chemist, I'm just trying to avoid big, costly and messy mistakes, while at the same time having a lot of fun, saving some money -eventually, and helping the environment.
                          George

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Adverse BD reactions with various materials

                            Shouldnt Aluminum be Yes.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Adverse BD reactions with various materials

                              Originally posted by Dodge View Post
                              Shouldnt Aluminum be Yes.
                              The US DOE says Aluminum is a suitable storage material for biodiesel.

                              Comment

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