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Jeffrey S. Brooks
24th November 2011, 12:41 PM
Blending gasoline with biodiesel at 10% to cause contaminants to precipitate out, lower the gel point, improve performance, and reduce emissions.

http://youtu.be/0EorDrATSoc

tbird650
1st December 2011, 03:09 PM
JSB, I believe I've seen you measure the specific gravity of a number of your blends.
I'm just wondering what has been learnt from the specific gravity data so far?
Are there any trends?

Jeffrey S. Brooks
2nd December 2011, 04:56 AM
Yes, I measure the specific gravity and viscosity of each of my blends, and, I have found that specific gravity does not closely follow viscosity; however, it is a way to qualify a blend.

tbird650
2nd December 2011, 08:11 AM
I have found that specific gravity does not closely follow viscosity
What can we do the various data gathered? Can it be graphed or similar? No doubt you've been thinking and have a plan.

Say, have you got those failed IP's apart yet? Am keen to know the diagnosis. It's an important piece of the puzzle, I believe.

tillyfromparadise
2nd December 2011, 03:26 PM
Hi Jeffrey,
I find your video very interesting.
I attempted to duplicate your results using 1 litre test batches.

1st test- High conversion washed and dried biodiesel. About 6 months old.
2nd test- High conversion unwashed, undried biodiesel. About 4 days old
3rd Test- Very low conversion unwashed and undried biodiesel about 3 days old.

After an hour I do not see any precipitate in any of the tests.
I will also remind you that you added petrol to the mix, not diesel. Most people who use biodiesel do not fill up with petrol when biodiesel is not available.
I think your conclusions about what clogs fuel filters is not supported by this test and requires more testing.

If it were me I would do a 3/27 test and a Shake-em-up test on the B99 to get an idea of the quality of the biodiesel.

Again, I find the video very informative. I think you are on to something. I think more testing is definately required.

SUZUDDIS
2nd December 2011, 05:41 PM
Tilly

that's because you have clean fuel and clean containers. what this video shows is that Jeff has a dirty tank or the pipe work is dirty.
adding petrol or diesel won't stop this reaction. changing the ratio of Bio/Petrol/Diesel will only slow the fall out. again informative but you would have to have poor biodiesel or dirty equipment to have any benefit from this mix.

Michael

Tony From West Oz
2nd December 2011, 09:15 PM
Jeffrey,
I cannot see how you come to the conclusion that biodiesel does not clean the residues of years of diesel use, from the tank.
The fact that you bought biodiesel which had particulates in it does not refute the many years of experience of biodiesel users.

You state that your vehicle does not smoke, but it is quite clear from the video that, at least at idle, your vehicle produces a significant amount of smoke from the exhaust.

Regards,
Tony

Jeffrey S. Brooks
3rd December 2011, 05:38 AM
What can we do the various data gathered? Can it be graphed or similar? No doubt you've been thinking and have a plan.Yes, I plan to pull all of the data together soon, and will release it.

Say, have you got those failed IP's apart yet? Am keen to know the diagnosis. It's an important piece of the puzzle, I believe.Yes, I have three failed IPs with me, and I plan to pull at least one of them apart. I noticed that my vinyl sight glass will swell if there is too much alcohol in the petrol I use, but that vinyl sight glass will shrink back to normal when the alcohol content is reduced below 2%, so I thought I would soak my two partially failed IPs in diesel fuel for a week to see if that regenerates them.

what this video shows is that Jeff has a dirty tank or the pipe work is dirty.
MichaelActually, Michael, my blending apparatus was back-flushed with clean gasoline before I put the biodiesel into it. So, the precipitates were not caused by dirt in my processing equipment; however, the biodiesel product may have been poor. So, it is good that Tilly did his experiment. Now, we just need a few more people to run the same experiment to have a broader data-set to examine. It is clear to me; however, that the post biodiesel water wash could be eliminated if the biodiesel product were blended with petrol at 5-10%, then allowed to settle for a few days, then the precipitates removed prior to filtering into the fuel tank.

My hypothesis is intermittent introduction of petroleum distillates is what causes the plugging of filters and in some cases of amber coloured gunk that accumulates in the fuel system, such as tBird reported some time ago. Therefore, if petroleum distillates are blended with biodiesel on a regular basis before the fuel tank, and allowed to settle, and any precipitates are removed, then fuel filters will not fail more frequently than when running D2, and the amber coloured gunk accumulation will not form in the fuel system of biodiesel consumers.

The precipitates of particulate and amber coloured gunk might just be so small an amount that it does not become a problem in several thousand K of driving. So, running a small sample, as Tilly did, may not reveal the problem. In 80L processed I only found about 100ml of gunk. So, in a 1L sample it would only reveal less than 1ml of gunk, which may have been too small for Tilly to observe. So, I suggest a larger sample size will be needed to prove or disprove my results.

tillyfromparadise
3rd December 2011, 07:21 AM
Hi Jeffrey,

I have been studying your video and I do have some concerns.

The fallout in your video shows chunks falling quickly down the glass tube.
If you have ever made biodiesel you will know that the fallout is not chunks.
During the initial large separation you can see a definite demarkation line between light and dark biodiesel that very slowly settles to the bottom over an hour or so.Then over the next few days/weeks the biodiesel will gradually lighten in colour as a glycerine layer slowly builds on the bottom.
I have never seen chunks as depicted in your video.

If you go to the 1:10 min mark on your video you can see an irregularly shaped lighter area on the side of your glass tube that suggests to me that the inside of your tube is dirty. Also, just before that point, when you pan up the glass tube it certainly appears that the inside of the tube is dirty as you move towards the top.

My three test batches still show no form of fall out, whether it be chunks or a fine layer of glycerine.

I think that at this stage you need to insure that your equipment is clean and repeat the test. What you are showing does not fit with anything I have experienced.

Perhaps the biodiesel is such a good solvent that t has cleaned your glass tube out

tillyfromparadise
3rd December 2011, 12:12 PM
Hi Jeffrey,
My hypothesis is intermittent introduction of petroleum distillates is what causes the plugging of filters and in some cases of amber coloured gunk that accumulates in the fuel system, such as tBird reported some time ago.If you are talking about tbird650, the way I read it he is using WVO, not biodiesel.
I can show you a multitude of horror stories on the infopop forum from people using WVO

tillyfromparadise
4th December 2011, 12:14 PM
HI Jeffrey,

Another extremely important point.
On your video starting at 1:05 minutes you say;
"You can see up here that the blend is a little thinner at the top... that's...I put the gasoline on top...two gallons of gasoline on top of eighteen gallons of B99"

When I performed my three experiments I just poured the petrol on top of the biodiesel and let it sit too. The next morning when I turned the bottles upside down I noticed that there was the swirling refraction distortion you get when two dissimilar liquids are first mixed together.
There had been NO significant mixing of the petrol and biodiesel over a 10 hour period.
Your video shows the same thing.

By pouring the petrol on top and not mixing, the petrol and biodiesel did not mix to any appreciable degree.
It is sure looking like the precipitate you are seeing has come from either the bottom of the petrol can or the dirty sides of the glass tube.

I await a re-run of your experiment.

Jeffrey S. Brooks
5th December 2011, 03:56 AM
Actually, my waste oil blending and processing equipment is attached to the rear of my van, so when I dirve it gets pretty mixed up, and I left that biodiesel/petrol blend in my blending trank for 2 days, which involved some driving each day. So, we can conclude that my blend was reasonably blended by the time I made those videos.



Secondaly, as I have already pointed out the amount of preciptiate was pretty low (<1L in 80L), which is about 1%. So, an experiment involvning a 1L blend is not likely to reveal much. I would suggest anyone wishing to confirm or refute my results must blend a larger sample, ie. >20L.

tillyfromparadise
5th December 2011, 04:11 AM
Hi Jeffrey,

Actually, my waste oil blending and processing equipment is attached to the rear of my van, so when I dirve it gets pretty mixed up, and I left that biodiesel/petrol blend in my blending trank for 2 days, which involved some driving each day. So, we can conclude that my blend was reasonably blended by the time I made those videos.
Are you now saying that what you said on the video was not correct about the liquid being thinner at the top of the glass tube because you had just poured the petrol on top of it and you had actually poured the petrol into the tube two days earlier and it had taken two days for the precipitate to develope in the glass tube and start falling out?
In the video you said that you had seen the precipitate start to form right away but were only collecting it two days later.


Secondaly, as I have already pointed out the amount of preciptiate was pretty low (<1L in 80L), which is about 1%. So, an experiment involvning a 1L blend is not likely to reveal much. I would suggest anyone wishing to confirm or refute my results must blend a larger sample, ie. >20L.There are a lot of people who mix petrol and kerosene and diesel into their biodiesel over the winter and no one has ever reported what you have shown.
Considering you had not mixed the petrol into the biodiesel when you started seeing precipitate falling I think my 1 litre test batches are more meaningful than your test.

I suggest you clean out your equipment and repeat your test.

BushBill
5th December 2011, 10:07 AM
I'm one of those that adds petrol to my Biodiesel, the amount varies from summer to winter from 2-3% in summer and ~5% in winter. I do not get any precipitate dropping out. however I would think that poorly washed Bio might get something dropping out.

I wouldn't question your method Jeffrey, just the quality of the Biodiesel you started with, and perhaps the quality of the petrol. Maybe you should try with a different supply of Biodiesel and perhaps wash it thoroughly and dry it before experimenting.

BB

tillyfromparadise
5th December 2011, 11:19 AM
Hi BushBill,
I'm one of those that adds petrol to my Biodiesel, the amount varies from summer to winter from 2-3% in summer and ~5% in winter. I do not get any precipitate dropping out. however I would think that poorly washed Bio might get something dropping out.

I wouldn't question your method Jeffrey, just the quality of the Biodiesel you started with, and perhaps the quality of the petrol. Maybe you should try with a different supply of Biodiesel and perhaps wash it thoroughly and dry it before experimenting.
BBThere are several problem with that theory.
1. One of my tests was with unwashed, very low conversion biodiesel (10% methanol) that was only about 4 days old. There is still no fallout
2. In the video the fall-out started in the glass tube Before the petrol was mixed into the biodiesel.

There is a problem with his method.
The glass tube is dirty for starters, you can see that.
Also Jeffrey uses Waste Motor Oil to fuel his engine. I would bet a dollar to a donut that Jeffrey used a container that was contaminated with the crap that settles out of Waste Motor Oil to pour the petrol into the tube. That certainly would explain why the fallout started before the petrol was mixed into the biodiesel.

Captaincademan
5th December 2011, 01:27 PM
First up I am not a blender, but I follow the blend forum, as it brings up a lot of gems of info with regard to use of bio, especially in cold climates.

But I gotta say that regardless of who is posting (with regards to experiments), I personally would appreciate if people took a little more trouble to confine themselves to scientific principles.

I.e. - is it repeatable?, have I removed all known variables? have I conducted blind tests to confirm the reaction I am seeing is actually the result of the subject experiment?

Please, if you want to post your efforts as scientific observations, conduct them scientifically.

Science is just a logical pathway. stick to logic.

Posting info that is blatantly wrong just hurts this forum. There are so many people here that try to help productively, honestly and in good faith, that I would hate to see it watered down through observations made from lazy experiments.

I'll go back to the Bio section now :p

BushBill
6th December 2011, 10:39 PM
Tilly,

I was just trying to suggest to Jeffrey, in a subtle way, that perhaps he could try the experiment again as others of us have different results to his.

Bill

tillyfromparadise
7th December 2011, 09:40 AM
Hi Bill
Tilly,

I was just trying to suggest to Jeffrey, in a subtle way, that ...
BillI thought I was being subtle.

Jeffrey S. Brooks
9th December 2011, 03:15 AM
Hi Jeffrey,
Are you now saying that what you said on the video was not correct about the liquid being thinner at the top of the glass tube because you had just poured the petrol on top of it and you had actually poured the petrol into the tube two days earlier and it had taken two days for the precipitate to develope in the glass tube and start falling out?
In the video you said that you had seen the precipitate start to form right away but were only collecting it two days later.No, you do not seem to get that the video was shot in several sequences over a 2 to 3 day period. So, there were different phenomena observed on different days, then edited together.

There are a lot of people who mix petrol and kerosene and diesel into their biodiesel over the winter and no one has ever reported what you have shown.
Considering you had not mixed the petrol into the biodiesel when you started seeing precipitate falling I think my 1 litre test batches are more meaningful than your test.This is false, The petrol had been added to the biodiesel before I started shooting the sequence on this subject. However, it is worth noting that a lot of people who mix petrol and kerosene and diesel into their biodiesel over the winter and no one has ever reported precipitates. However, that does not mean that those precipitates are not forming. After all many people running various alternative diesel fuels frequently report plugged fuel filters. This common experience should suggest that perhaps those precipitates are forming, but everyone is misinterpreting the failed fuel filter.


I suggest you clean out your equipment and repeat your test.No, I already stated that I had back-flushed my equipment with 14L of petrol. So, I have recommended that others repeat the experiment, and report their findings.

Jeffrey S. Brooks
9th December 2011, 03:19 AM
First up I am not a blender, but I follow the blend forum, as it brings up a lot of gems of info with regard to use of bio, especially in cold climates.

But I gotta say that regardless of who is posting (with regards to experiments), I personally would appreciate if people took a little more trouble to confine themselves to scientific principles.

I.e. - is it repeatable?, have I removed all known variables? have I conducted blind tests to confirm the reaction I am seeing is actually the result of the subject experiment?

Please, if you want to post your efforts as scientific observations, conduct them scientifically.

Science is just a logical pathway. stick to logic.

Posting info that is blatantly wrong just hurts this forum. There are so many people here that try to help productively, honestly and in good faith, that I would hate to see it watered down through observations made from lazy experiments.

I'll go back to the Bio section now :pIf you are referring to me "Posting info that is blatantly wrong," then I am sorry, I have a 40-year technical career, 3 degrees from the University of Arizona, and I have done research for years, including a stint of petroleum research at Chevron Research. So, I know how to setup an experiment, with a well thought out research design,<text removed by moderator>

tillyfromparadise
9th December 2011, 07:09 PM
Hi Jeffrey,


Originally posted by JeffreyNo, you do not seem to get that the video was shot in several sequences over a 2 to 3 day period. So, there were different phenomena observed on different days, then edited together.I understand that. I assume the video is in chronological order.



This is false, The petrol had been added to the biodiesel before I started shooting the sequence on this subject. I was probably being too subtle there. Yes, you had added the petrol to the biodiesel, but no, as you clearly pointed out in the video, the petrol was still on the top, there had not been any meaningful mixed of the petrol and biodiesel after you had shown all that precipitate falling through the biodiesel



No, I already stated that I had back-flushed my equipment with 14L of petrol. So, I have recommended that others repeat the experiment, and report their findings. And did you then use the dirty petrol you had from flushing out your equipment to add to the biodiesel. That is certainly what it looks like to me.

Jeffrey S. Brooks
10th December 2011, 03:05 AM
Hi Jeffrey,

I understand that. I assume the video is in chronological order.




Yes, you had added the petrol to the biodiesel, but no, as you clearly pointed out in the video, the petrol was still on the top, there had not been any meaningful mixed of the petrol and biodiesel after you had shown all that precipitate falling through the biodieselWell, the thing to get that seems to be too subtle for you is the sight-glass. A sight-glass is a long narrow tube that reflects the volume in the tank. It can help give a view into the contents as well, but it resists blending because of its length. Also, the way my system is plumbed components added in sequence are going to enter the sight-glass in sequence and remain in sequence, a small amount of which will be trapped, and thus prevent blending; however, the mass of the fuel still goes into the tank where blending occurs while driving. This explains why there was a small amount of petrol remaining on top of the solution in my sight-glass. I will be processing another blend into my fuel tank today, and after that I will be re-plumbing my sight-glass so that I can valve it off thus preventing concentrations of solvent lingering in the sight-glass. This has become a problem because petrol here in the USA has a high percentage of alcohol in it, which cause the vinyl tube that I am using as a sight-glass to swell, and I am also experimenting with acetone and other solvents, which can weaken the vinyl hose that I use as a sight-glass.

And did you then use the dirty petrol you had from flushing out your equipment to add to the biodiesel. That is certainly what it looks like to me.Of course I did NOT use dirty petrol that I had flushed out my equipment with to add to the biodiesel. <Text removed by moderator>


<Text removed by moderator> why don't you just process a larger batch of biodiesel (80L) and add petrol on top of it at 10% and give it at least 2 days to settle in a cone shaped settling tank? At least that way, you will repeat my experiment. <Text removed by moderator>

tillyfromparadise
10th December 2011, 10:45 AM
Hi Jeffrey,
If you are referring to me "Posting info that is blatantly wrong," then I am sorry, I have a 40-year technical career, 3 degrees from the University of Arizona, and I have done research for years, including a stint of petroleum research at Chevron Research. <Text removed by moderator>



Well, the thing to that seems to subtle for you is the sight-glass. A sight-glass is a long narrow tube that reflects the volume in the tank. It can help give a view into the contents as well, but it resists blending because of its length.I see. We were actually only seeing the contents of the sight tube and the precipitate in the video was just the crap that had collected in the sight tube over time because it was not cleaned out during the petrol flush.



<Text removed by moderator> why don't you just process a larger batch of biodiesel (80L) and add petrol on top of it at 10% and give it at least 2 days to settle in a cone shaped settling tank? At least that way, you will repeat my experiment. <Text removed by moderator> The main reason is that I never mix petrol and biodiesel.
I have a better idea, why do you not <Text removed by moderator> design a test that actually tests something other than the amount of dirt that has collected in your sight tube.

BushBill
10th December 2011, 12:53 PM
Jeffrey,

As I said before, I add petrol to biodiesel, up to about 5% for winter use. I also add about 12% petro-diesel plus a little pure-gum terps .1% and some acetone .1%. I mix this all together in my processor for proper mixing, then filter through a 1 micron bag filter and into the 160 litre storage container.

Mt storage container acts as a settling tank, the fuel sits there until used and I take the fuel from about 250 mm from the bottom. I had reason to use all the fuel a few months ago, so I was able to see what was in the bottom of the container. There was nothing but fuel. No drop out of any kind. This container had over 1500 litres of fuel go through it over the previous six months.

I have seen other peoples biodiesel that looks poor (cloudy), that I would not use in my own vehicles, and they seem to have problems of a sludgy dropout, and lots of blocked filters. The sludgy stuff appears to be some kind of glyc and water combination. Nowhere have I seen the type of particulate dropout that you seem to have, except for some rust from dirty wet containers, not from the mix of fuel.

Bill

Captaincademan
10th December 2011, 08:18 PM
Jeffrey,

After reading The last couple of posts it seems by your own admission you are basing your observation (or at least visible results) on a element of your experiment that does not (once again by your own admission) reflect the true nature of the results.

I would have thought that 40 years of acedemia would have prevented such an occurance. Maybe 40 years of brewing bio or using alternative fuels would have held you in better stead.

I am not trying to be personal here at all. Forgive me if it appears that way. If you want to improve your credibilty, quoting irrelevant experience wont do it. All that needs to happen is to clean up the experiment a little. Forget the sight glass, its useless. Why not install 3 taps on the side if the vessel at different heights , low, mid and high. After the mix, simply tap off a sample in a CLEAN glass jar for each? That should give you a good sample base. I am sure there are other better ways, but that seems like a reasonable place to start.

But then again thats only the thoughts of an uneducated fool. I better go and read a book about Hiawatha and minnehaha

Jeffrey S. Brooks
11th December 2011, 01:48 AM
Jeffrey,

As I said before, I add petrol to biodiesel, up to about 5% for winter use. I also add about 12% petro-diesel plus a little pure-gum terps .1% and some acetone .1%. I mix this all together in my processor for proper mixing, then filter through a 1 micron bag filter and into the 160 litre storage container.

Mt storage container acts as a settling tank, the fuel sits there until used and I take the fuel from about 250 mm from the bottom. I had reason to use all the fuel a few months ago, so I was able to see what was in the bottom of the container. There was nothing but fuel. No drop out of any kind. This container had over 1500 litres of fuel go through it over the previous six months.

I have seen other peoples biodiesel that looks poor (cloudy), that I would not use in my own vehicles, and they seem to have problems of a sludgy dropout, and lots of blocked filters. The sludgy stuff appears to be some kind of glyc and water combination. Nowhere have I seen the type of particulate dropout that you seem to have, except for some rust from dirty wet containers, not from the mix of fuel.

BillThanks, Bill, this is the kind of response that I was hoping for, instead of the character assassination, that I received. So, apparently you are making a good biodiesel product; and arguably, the biodiesel I bought at a fuel station in Tucson, AZ, USA, might very well have been very poor biodiesel quality.

However, my point in this entire effort was to point out a few things:
1) It is reasonable to expect that there are incompatible components in all blends, regardless of the quality of the source, so it is wise to accommodate for precipitates when blending. As you, Bill, are doing.
2) It is possible that one need not do back flips to make super-pooper good biodiesel, by employing the concept of blending a small quantity of petrol in every biodiesel batch. This would force out of solution remnants of water and glycerine, so one could avoid the whole water washing cycle.

BushBill
11th December 2011, 09:13 AM
Jeffrey,


"However, my point in this entire effort was to point out a few things:
1) It is reasonable to expect that there are incompatible components in all blends, regardless of the quality of the source, so it is wise to accommodate for precipitates when blending. As you, Bill, are doing.
2) It is possible that one need not do back flips to make super-pooper good biodiesel, by employing the concept of blending a small quantity of petrol in every biodiesel batch. This would force out of solution remnants of water and glycerine, so one could avoid the whole water washing cycle. "

I disagree with the above. I have a mate who has made some poor batches in the past. He often has them settling in buckets. He had them in these buckets during a time when there were large variations in temperature. You could see the dropout on the bottom of the bucket. He siphoned off the biodiesel from the top into a clean bucket, yet this new bucket continued to have a dropout. This was over a period of weeks and the biodiesel had been mixed with a degree of petrol and petro-diesel.

If you think adding petrol is going to force out water and Glyc, over what time period are you talking about?? Over what temperature range are you talking about?

I believe that making good clean dry biodiesel is 99.9% of the answer to any dropout/precipitates. I am not prepared to risk injury to machinery by cutting corners for the sake of saving a bit of time.

You are losing a bit of credibility by sticking to your position instead of repeating the experiment with a different source of initial products. You are assuming you are correct despite different results from others.

tillyfromparadise
11th December 2011, 12:06 PM
Hi Jeffrey,
<Text removed by moderator>



, the biodiesel I bought at a fuel station in Tucson, AZ, USA, might very well have been very poor biodiesel quality.It might have been very poor quality biodiesel. It was more likely to have been very high quality Biodiesel.
But because of the poor design of your experiment you did not even perform the most basic first step of checking the quality of the biodiesel. So it is meaningless to sit and speculate.




However, my point in this entire effort was to point out a few things:
1) It is reasonable to expect that there are incompatible components in all blends, regardless of the quality of the sourceWhy is it reasonable to expect that? Do you mean like all the dirt and crud that your equipment put into the blend?




2) It is possible that one need not do back flips to make super-pooper good biodiesel, by employing the concept of blending a small quantity of petrol in every biodiesel batch.It is also possible that little green men will kidnap me into their spaceship this afternoon. Actually that is more likely to happen than what you are proposing




This would force out of solution remnants of water and glycerine, so one could avoid the whole water washing cycle.Considering the "glycerine" layer is miscible in petrol and petrol is miscible in biodiesel, why would the petrol force the glycerine out of the biodiesel?
<Text removed by moderator> There is already enough misinformation about producing biodiesel on the internet. <Text removed by moderator>Please stop adding to it

SUZUDDIS
11th December 2011, 09:11 PM
Boys , I think we have gone far enough here. Might want to stop having a go at each other.

While we all believe in what we preach , sometimes it doesn't fit with what others practice. No biggy just deal with it and move on.
If this continues we may need a moderator to step in.

Jeffrey , when I process my next batch 150 liters I'll get some petrol and tip it in to check for the dropout.
Hope you don't mind waiting a couple of weeks but I'll put into the batch.

Michaael

Jeffrey S. Brooks
12th December 2011, 01:18 AM
Jeffrey,I disagree with the above...
If you think adding petrol is going to force out water and Glyc, over what time period are you talking about?? Over what temperature range are you talking about?In 5 years of blending I consistently find blending petrol with waste oils forces water and particulate out of solution. It takes about 24 hours for this to happen with WVO and about 3 days for WMO blends. Thus, it seems reasonable to conclude that blending petrol with biodiesel might cause the precipitation of contaminants in the biodiesel which could be used to purify the biodiesel if the blend were made in a settling tank and not in the fuel tank. Whereas, if the blend were made in the fuel tank, then it may cause premature filter failure, and possibly other problems.

Jeffrey S. Brooks
12th December 2011, 01:23 AM
Considering the "glycerine" layer is miscible in petrol and petrol is miscible in biodiesel, why would the petrol force the glycerine out of the biodiesel?


Jeffrey, it is clear you do not know what you are talking about. There is already enough misinformation about producing biodiesel on the internet. Please, Please, Please stop adding to it

So, can you prove that glycerine is miscible in petrol? Or, are you just here to perpetuate misinformation about biodiesel on the internet?

tillyfromparadise
12th December 2011, 03:50 AM
Hi Jeffrey,
So, can you prove that glycerine is miscible in petrol?Yes, I did a test. I mixed equal parts of glycerine and petrol and they stayed mixed together. They did not seperate from each other

BushBill
12th December 2011, 12:18 PM
Jeffrey,


it seems reasonable to conclude

Not when I have just stated that something else happens from observation. Let me repeat...

" You could see the dropout on the bottom of the bucket. He siphoned off the biodiesel from the top into a clean bucket, yet this new bucket continued to have a dropout. This was over a period of weeks and the biodiesel had been mixed with a degree of petrol and petro-diesel."

It appeared the variation in temperature was a major influence on stuff dropping out. In my mates case it was probably glyc and water, yet it took time, weeks.

The only reason I add petrol to biodiesel is to lower viscosity, and my opinion is that if you get a dropout something is wrong with either the biodiesel, petrol or containers you are using. If you get a dropout to me it is obvious some more testing is needed to see what is wrong, making an assumption that it will be OK in 24 hours if settled, seems a tad naive to me.

Bill

SUZUDDIS
12th December 2011, 06:49 PM
Jeffrey

I am going to add my results later but today I drained off all the water from my previous batch. 150 litres.
To put merit where its due I did get some settlement from my batch. But I know where it came from and know why it was there. What I don't know is why it was still there .

I bubble dry and because I get good results from the previous batch examples I'll continue to do so.

This batch is 150 litres and had been too aggressively washed so it caused an emulsion. I grabbed a 20 litre oil wvo drum and piped into this. This drum wasn't clean and had some lumps in the bottom. I'm not proud of this but it was going to be dumped anyway.

After adding vinegar to my emulsion and watching it quickly settle out I decided to pour the majority of this drum back into my processor. Chunks and all. This batch has since been water washed and bubble dried.

This afternoon I added 1 litre of petrol into the batch and left it to do its stuff. I know my processor is clean because I clean it after every batch.
Giving it several hours to sit , I then drained approx 500 millilitres off.
I have a poly cone bottom processor for any that don't know what I'm using.

When I take some photos later this evening they will show lumps of what I can only describe as food particles. Why this didn't wash out with the water wash I don't know but it would have filtered out when I pipe off to my storage.

Jeffrey , I can only conclude that you got ripped off when you purchased your fuel if your pipe work is clean. Most of us know our systems in side out and back to front. I'll leave that to you.

Michael

Jeffrey S. Brooks
12th December 2011, 11:05 PM
Jeffrey...This afternoon I added 1 litre of petrol into the batch and left it to do its stuff. I know my processor is clean because I clean it after every batch.
Giving it several hours to sit , I then drained approx 500 millilitres off.
I have a poly cone bottom processor for any that don't know what I'm using.

When I take some photos later this evening they will show lumps of what I can only describe as food particles. Why this didn't wash out with the water wash I don't know but it would have filtered out when I pipe off to my storage.

Jeffrey , I can only conclude that you got ripped off when you purchased your fuel if your pipe work is clean. Most of us know our systems in side out and back to front. I'll leave that to you.

MichaelThe "lumps" that you are interpreting as food particles seem unlikely to be food particles in a batch of biodiesel that you had already processed. It might be the same thing that I observed, which were gelatinous masses floating in my blend of biodiesel and petrol. I suspect that they are glycerin precipitates that formed from improperly made biodiesel. Which could have been the same thing that Bill observed above; however, I do not see why there would be continued precipitation due to declining temperature, if it was just glycerine. Maybe in Bill's case, and your's and mine, it was un-reacted animal fat, or hydrogenated oils, because animal fat and hydrogenated oils will not dissolve into petroleum distillates. So, when petrol is added to biodiesel that has some un-reacted animal fat and hydrogenated oils in it, then they will precipitate out of solution.

tillyfromparadise
13th December 2011, 06:06 AM
Hi Jeffrey,
It might be the same thing that I observed, which were gelatinous masses floating in my blend of biodiesel and petrol.I do not remember you mentioning gelatinous masses floating on the top.
It is very unlikely to be glycerine, glycerine sinks


I suspect that they are glycerin precipitates that formed from improperly made biodiesel.Glycerine is the byproduct of making biodiesel. It is produced no mater what the quality of the biodiesel



because animal fat and hydrogenated oils will not dissolve into petroleum distillates. So, when petrol is added to biodiesel that has some un-reacted animal fat and hydrogenated oils in it, then they will precipitate out of solution.When you say animal fat do you mean just a chunk of fat from the animal like you would cook or do you mean the oil that has been rendered from fat.
You are the first person who I know of to say that hydrogenated oils were not miscible in petroleum products. Are you sure of that?
Can you describe the tests you performed to come to this conclussion?

SUZUDDIS
13th December 2011, 05:10 PM
Sorry for taking so long to post the pictures. I'm not going to post video because I have things to get done.
I will note that my fuel is looking fantastically clear after adding the petrol although I now loath the smell of the raw fuel. hopefully it won't affect the burnt smell too much.

anyway here goes. as you can see there is some water content in the bottom. this is the leftovers from the batch. the very last drops of water that dropped out of the batch when the petrol was added. I don't know what they are and don't care really as like I said previously they would have been filtered out in my transfer. time for me to move back to the Bio forum.

Jeffrey S. Brooks
13th December 2011, 11:49 PM
...I will note that my fuel is looking fantastically clear after adding the petrol....Thank-you, SUZUDDIS, your photos and report support my premise that blending a small amount of petrol with biodiesel will cause any contaminants in that biodiesel to precipitate out; therefore it is wise to do your blending before the fuel tank.

Tim-HJ61
14th December 2011, 01:23 AM
Personalized critiques have no place in this forum.

Referring to each others backgrounds in a sarcastic way is uncalled for, and will result in infractions that include a time out or complete banning.

Contain yourselves to discussing the technical issues at hand; or be man enough to let it go.


Tim - moderator

tillyfromparadise
14th December 2011, 07:07 AM
There has been some conjecture that by adding a small amount of petrol to biodiesel the petrol will "force" any remaining glycerine in the biodiesel out of solution causing the glycerine to fall to to the bottom or possibly float on top.

My preliminary testing suggests this is unlikely to be the case because both the glycerine byproduct and and biodiesel dissolve in petrol.
It is more likely that the petrol will actually act as a co-solvent and keep the glycerine dissolved in the biodiesel, not allowing it to settle out as it normally does.
So I decided to perform an experiment.

The Experiment
1. I poured recently produced room temperature glycerine to a level of 10mm into a glass jar and marked on the jar the level of the glycerine.
2. I then poured a 10%- 15% blend of petrol and washed biodiesel into the jar to bring the level of the liquid in the jar up to to the 60mm mark
3. I then shook the jar very hard to thoroughly mix the contents of the jar.
4. I sat the jar down and observed.

Results
After the first day a layer of glycerine had formed.
At the end of the second day there has been no noticeable increase in the level the glycerine has reached.
The level of the glycerine is 8mm.
That means that about 20% of the original glycerine is still in the biodiesel.
The biodiesel is fairly clear but not sparkling clear.
I will continue to observe this test over the next few weeks and report back.

Intermediate Conclusion
It does seem that the petrol is acting like a co-solvent in the same way methonal acts like a co solvent and is actually prevention the glycerine from settling out

SUZUDDIS
14th December 2011, 11:27 AM
Like I was saying before. the particles of crap that dropped out appear to be food from the dirty drum that was used to pour into after I processed my batch.

so this was after I processed and before I did my second wash. I can only guess that the petrol forced the oil out of the food particles and then let them settle in the water.

Michael

Jeffrey S. Brooks
16th December 2011, 01:16 AM
There has been some conjecture that by adding a small amount of petrol to biodiesel the petrol will "force" any remaining glycerine in the biodiesel out of solution causing the glycerine to fall to to the bottom or possibly float on top.

My preliminary testing suggests this is unlikely to be the case because both the glycerine byproduct and and biodiesel dissolve in petrol.
It is more likely that the petrol will actually act as a co-solvent and keep the glycerine dissolved in the biodiesel, not allowing it to settle out as it normally does.
So I decided to perform an experiment.Well, now we have competing results, and Michale's report is now unclear. So, all we need now is a third person to conduct the experiment and report their results.

tillyfromparadise
16th December 2011, 06:48 AM
Well, now we have competing results, and Michale's report is now unclear.[/LEFT]Hi Jeffrey,
in the intrest of arriving at the correct answer, I will point out that the precipitate in your video is extremely unlikely to be glycerine that has just precipitated out of the biodiesel.
Glycerine just does not precepitate out in lumps and flakes as shown in your video. If it were glycerine there would be no visible precipitate travelling through the biodiesel and it will not collect together in lumps and flakes as it apparently has in the video.

Mu guess is that Michael's explanation of what occurred in his case is correct.

craigcurtin
16th December 2011, 07:48 PM
JSB<

I am due to make another batch of BIO on the weekend - the method i use ensures that i have low conversion BIO on the first pass (i.e. there is some unreacted oil within the BIO) I will put some of this aside.

I will also put aside some from this same batch once it is totally reacted and before i dry it and perform some of these tests so you can have a 3rd set of results.

I have got to say though that i am leaning towards Tilly's position on this one.

And just to clarify also - i am a BIO maker, WVO blender and a straight WVO user all rolled into one. !!

My suburban currently runs on BIO for startup, and then WVO for running, my Surf runs on a blend in its startup tank and WVO in its main tank

Craig

Captaincademan
17th December 2011, 03:28 PM
198619871988

Ok, I thought I would have a crack at this.

first photo - measured 200ml of really grubby unwashed bio dregs from the bottom of my mixer.

second photo - added 20ml of fresh clean unleaded petrol (AKA gasoline for the yanks)

third photo - 3/27 test underway on left, grubby bio and petrol mix (shaken up big time) in the middle and bee-yute-iful ready to go (but still unwashed) bio straight from my fuel bowser on the right.

note the differnece in colour between my finished product and the bio/ petrol mix. lots of glycerine here. probably got caustic and soaps in it too.

The other photos will be in my next post, as I wasnt able to add any more in this post.

Captaincademan
17th December 2011, 03:55 PM
1993199419951996

OK, having trouble with internet connection, so here goes for 4th time.

first photo here - 3/27 test drop out. no surprises, as I only use 3.5 grams of caustic plus titration value.

2nd photo - 0.3ml of drop out. this equates to a 90% conversion.

3rd photo - bio / petrol sample with the beejeesus shaken out of it and left for 1 hour. looking pretty precipitate free there I would say.

4th photo - same sample from different angle.

Seeing the bio I used was from the bottom of my mixer full of glycerine (you can see from the colour) probably soaps and caustic too, I would expect some drop out now anyway. nothing. will see what the next couple of days bring.

by the way - the sample has not been filtered at all. not once. not even the oil through a stocking before I brewed it. there should be food particles galore in there.

the 3/27 test, the colour and my experience would tell me that my sample is from a typical brew.

Sorry Jeffery, but its not looking good for 10:1 bio to petrol as helping to drop out any contaminants. This bio sample is about as grubby a bio sample you could get, and there is no drop out.

Jeffrey S. Brooks
18th December 2011, 12:48 AM
3rd photo - bio / petrol sample with the beejeesus shaken out of it and left for 1 hour. looking pretty precipitate free there I would say. OK, thanks, Captaincademan, for trying. However, do NOT agitate petrol blends with anything, and wait at least 24hrs for precipitates to form. If you agitate a blend it could take days to weeks for the precipitates to settle out.

Captaincademan
18th December 2011, 01:41 AM
Hang on a tick, didnt you say a while back that if uou blend in your tank all the drop out occurs in the tank? Fuel sloshes around like crazy in a tank?? And 24 hours is ample for anything with a higher SG (such as glycerine) to fall out. I am still having trouble with your basic statements. Can you please shed some light on why you cant agitate a blend in a jar with petrol, but its ok in a cars fuel tank? This is doing my head in. I think I will stick to my proven method of settling over months before use. This thread is all yours Jeffery. I'm out.

tillyfromparadise
18th December 2011, 09:50 AM
Update
This experiment is now in it's fifth day.
The level of the glycerine is still at the 8mm mark which is only about 80% of the glycerine originally placed in the jar.
The biodiesel is clear.
This indicates that about 20% of the glycerine is still disolved in the petrol/biodiesel mix


There has been some conjecture that by adding a small amount of petrol to biodiesel the petrol will "force" any remaining glycerine in the biodiesel out of solution causing the glycerine to fall to to the bottom or possibly float on top.

My preliminary testing suggests this is unlikely to be the case because both the glycerine byproduct and and biodiesel dissolve in petrol.
It is more likely that the petrol will actually act as a co-solvent and keep the glycerine dissolved in the biodiesel, not allowing it to settle out as it normally does.
So I decided to perform an experiment.

The Experiment
1. I poured recently produced room temperature glycerine to a level of 10mm into a glass jar and marked on the jar the level of the glycerine.
2. I then poured a 10%- 15% blend of petrol and washed biodiesel into the jar to bring the level of the liquid in the jar up to to the 60mm mark
3. I then shook the jar very hard to thoroughly mix the contents of the jar.
4. I sat the jar down and observed.

Results
After the first day a layer of glycerine had formed.
At the end of the second day there has been no noticeable increase in the level the glycerine has reached.
The level of the glycerine is 8mm.
That means that about 20% of the original glycerine is still in the biodiesel.
The biodiesel is fairly clear but not sparkling clear.
I will continue to observe this test over the next few weeks and report back.

Intermediate Conclusion
It does seem that the petrol is acting like a co-solvent in the same way methonal acts like a co solvent and is actually prevention the glycerine from settling out

bet2000
21st January 2012, 09:57 PM
In China, more and more methanol is added into gasoline, or even 100% used as car fuel called M100(with a special ECU to switch ejection of fuel volumes). M15, M30, M50, M85.

Biodiesel sometimes is added as content of additive, which may help to vapor lock.