Does gasoline remain dissolved in waste oil blend diesel fuel?

[Jeffrey S. Brooks Banned Find all posts View Profile Close Jeffrey S. Brooks]

There seems to be some confusion as to the mechanism that distributes the components throughout the medium of a solution.

A demonstration of diffusion as used in blending waste oils into diesel fuel
Does gasoline remain dissolved in waste oil blend diesel fuel? - YouTube

[tillyfromparadise Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close tillyfromparadise]

Re: Does gasoline remain dissolved in waste oil blend diesel fuel?

Hi Jeffrey,I watched your video with interest. I am only going to comment on the portion concerning mixing petrol with WVO because I have no intrest or knowledge using WMO.

At time point 4:28 you add 200ml petrol to about a litre of WVO and you can clearly see the refraction distortions/turbulence that frequently occur when two liquids are mixed together.
At time point 5:16 you say "They seem to have gone one into each other and Ihaven"t even seen any turbulence and they are now uniform"
This is not a correct statement. From the point of your adding the petrol to the WVO you could see the "turbulence" caused by refraction distortion that often occurres when two liquids are mixed together. At time point 5:16 while you were making that statement you could still clearly see refraction distortions occurring in the bottle which is a sure sign that at that point the mixture was not uniform

At about time point 7:20 you said the mix had now sat for about 24 hours and there was no sign that the gasoline had separated from the Vegetable oil.
More importantly There was also no sign that the gasoline had ever thoroughly mixed with the vegetable oil. All that you would have had to do is tilt the bottle back and forth and check for the swirling refraction distortions.

At about time 7:56 you say it is a week later and "as we can see no emulsion layer has formed which means the gasoline and vegetable oil has not seperated and it did not require agitation to force the gasoline into solution with the vegetable oil"
Again, I have to question what you have said.
Why does the lack of an emulsion layer mean the Vegetable oil and Gasoline has not separated? Where would the emulsion layer have come from if the Petrol and Veg oil were not in solution.

You never demonstrated that the Petrol and WVO thoroughly mixed in the first place.

As I look at the bottle at about time point 8:00 it is very apparent that the liquid at the top of the bottle is lighter in colour than the liquid further down. That indicates to me that the petrol and WVO is not thoroughly mixed.　　

[Tony From West Oz Vice Chairperson of WARFA Find all posts View Profile Close Tony From West Oz]

Re: Does gasoline remain dissolved in waste oil blend diesel fuel?

Jeffrey,
One way to prove your assertion that the petrol has blended into the oil without agitation, is to take a sample at the bottom; a sample at the middle; and a sample at the top; of the container you have left sitting for a week and performing a simple viscosity test on each of the samples. With all samples at the same temperature, they should take exactly the same time to flow thru a viscosity cup. Any time difference indicates that the blend is not homogenous.

I would be interested to see the results of such testing.

I take offence to your statement that those who disagree with your statement that "gasoline blends without agitation" have either something to gain or have their own agenda.

Perhaps they do not agree because your tests do not actually test to determine that the blending has taken place. Looking at the diffusion of light due to different refractive indices of liquids is not a test of blending, just an indication that some mixing is taking place.


I look forward to definitive testing to verify your assertions.

Regards,
Tony

[Jeffrey S. Brooks Banned Find all posts View Profile Close Jeffrey S. Brooks]

Re: Does gasoline remain dissolved in waste oil blend diesel fuel?

I take offence to your statement that those who disagree with your statement that "gasoline blends without agitation" have either something to gain or have their own agenda.

The problem, Tony, that I have noticed with alternative diesel fuels forums is they tend to be run by people with little scientific training and a profound resentment toward anyone who blends. Blenders are thus commonly dismissed as idiots on these forums, and therefore systematically and cosnistently abused. In such an environmnet there is little ooportunity for blenders to express his or her successful experiences with blending, thus all we see on such forums is misinformation posted by people who are not blenders, and who resent blending, and often resort to character assassinations of blender. This forum is an example of that behavior.

I have provided a weekly video on blending on my YouTube channel, where I have done back flips to demonstarte that blending is the easiest and cheapest way to convert waste oils into diesel fuel; including spending hundreds of dollars on calibrated scientific instrumentats to back up my experiments and premises, in addition to having a 40 year technical career that included time in petroleum research for one of the largest petroleum companies in the world. However, none of that ever satisifies those who are invested in their beleif system that blending will not work. So, why should I continue to provide research for a group of people with absolutely no technical training at all, who will always find a reason to dismiss my work, and consistently resort to assassinating my character?

Blenders will find far more informed support for their blending activities on the follow two forums than anywhere else on the WWW

Beyond Biodiesel
BeyondBiodiesel.org - Index

vegetableoildiesel.co.uk
vegetableoildiesel.co.uk - Powered by XMB

[tillyfromparadise Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close tillyfromparadise]

Re: Does gasoline remain dissolved in waste oil blend diesel fuel?

Scientific tests must be repeatable and reproducible.

Yesterday afternoon I repeated this test.
I placed a clean dry Dr Pepper bottle on the work bench.
Through a funnel I poured 1 litre of Clean WVO into the Dr Pepper bottle.
I then poured 200ml of unleaded petrol into the bottle through the same funnel and screwed the top on.

Observations
As in the video you could see very turbulent, swirling mixing in the top portion of the bottle. There did not seem to be much petrol penetration into the lower part of the bottle.
The general movement of the petrol seemed to be up.
This swirling continued on for several minutes with a gradual slowing down until after a few minutes movement pretty much stopped in the bottle.
After about 10 minutes I noted that there was a very discernible demarkation line in the liquid about half way down the contents of the bottle. This "line" seemed to be a change in refractive index between two layers of liquid.
There was not much difference in colour.
2 hours later I came back and noticed the demarkation line was still there.
I then gently tipped the bottle back and forth a few times and noted that there was the familiar swirling refraction distortion pattern one often see when two liquids of different refractive index are mixed together in the top half of the liquid.
I then set the bottle down to see what happens over time.

It is now the next morning- 18 hours later.
Looking at the bottle I see there is still the demarkation line.
I have just tipped the bottle from side to side.
In the top half of the liquid I see the swirling refraction distortion patterns you see when two liquids of different refractive index are mixed together.
There are no refraction distortion patterns in the lower half of the liquid.
There is very clearly two distinct layers of liquid in the bottle.

Conclussion
When first poured into the bottle, the petrol penetrated to about the mid point of the WVO.Some mixing of WVO and petrol occurred and separated to the top half.
Below the demarkation line is pretty much all WVO.
The Petrol and WVO in the top half is not thoroughly mixed together as demonstrated by the refraction patterns.

[Captaincademan Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Captaincademan]

Re: Does gasoline remain dissolved in waste oil blend diesel fuel?

it would pay to assess the specific gravity of the two fluids. if there is a different SG (which there obviousely is if one sits on top of the other) then this will negate any "natural mixing", and it will at least require a mechanical mixing to form uniform solution (if uniform solution is possible). I cant see how the two fluids can mix at all on their own if they have different specific gravities.

even the air in our atmosphere which is constantly on the move will not thoroughly mix when it has differing densities, even though it has exactly the same molecular mix (leaving adiabatic lapse rates aside).

I think density (or specific gravity - express it as you wish) is the key factor that has not been explored in these "experiments".

[tillyfromparadise Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close tillyfromparadise]

Re: Does gasoline remain dissolved in waste oil blend diesel fuel?

Hi Cade,
Yes, the different SG's are the reason the petrol (sg around 0.75) and Veg oil (sg around 0.94) do not readily mix without stirring/aggitation.
I have already explained this to Jeffrey in an earlier post.

[SUZUDDIS Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close SUZUDDIS]

Re: Does gasoline remain dissolved in waste oil blend diesel fuel?

Jeffrey

I cannot understand how you can take offence to something someone said regarding a statement that isn't quaified.

While we all understand experience is important when determining an outcome , sometimes a new set of eyes can get a better / different outcome.
Also , on the note of Blending, to add a solution to another solution with differing 'SG's without agitation or mixing wouldn't equate to full Blend.

As I understand it , most people looking for a Blending solution would want a good product to work with , meaning they are going to want a complete blend. Why use a partial blend ?

Also these comments are not to be taken as critical or slander but simply input from members who care about what they do. If you have a solution that makes life simple , provide the detail. When that happens you will find you will get good positive feedback and most likely praise.

Kind Regards

Michael

[Jeffrey S. Brooks Banned Find all posts View Profile Close Jeffrey S. Brooks]

Re: Does gasoline remain dissolved in waste oil blend diesel fuel?

Some people believe that differing specific gravities between two fluids in a solution will prevent them from miscibility. Here are 14 Videos that demonstrate the diffusion of various solvents into waste vegetable oil (WVO), which should collapse that belief system.

Blending Solvents with Vegetable Oil to make diesel fuel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swedNqY23jk

Blending lacquer thinner with vegetable oil to make Diesel Fuel (WOBDF)
http://youtu.be/XbopU_Xo3mM

Blending MEK with vegetable oil to make Diesel Fuel (WOBDF)
http://youtu.be/ZyD0-oFeQYo

Blending gasoline with vegetable oil to make diesel fuel II
http://youtu.be/wVec28qRS-U

Blending Turpentine with vegetable oil to make diesel fuel I
http://youtu.be/GnUsbeVsSew

Blending Xylol (xylene) with Vegetable Oil to Make Diesel Fuel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmf_rFU7v4E

Blending Toluol (Toluene) with Vegetable Oil to Make Diesel Fuel
http://youtu.be/4QnXI_PYvhA

Blending acetone with vegetable oil to make Diesel Fuel
http://youtu.be/Pqpo4SrVi6A

Blending Lamp Oil with vegetable oil to make Waste Oil Blend Diesel Fuel
http://youtu.be/h0kNrW7K0rE

Blending Coleman Fuel with vegetable oil to make Waste Oil Blend Diesel Fuel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwmPvDLZUjs

Blending Naptha with vegetable oil to make Waste Oil Blend Diesel Fuel
http://youtu.be/iJMzTZoBCu4

Blending citrus oil with Vegetable Oil to Make Waste Oil Blend Diesel Fuel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHrSeMv-ibE

Blending paint thinner with Vegetable Oil to Make Waste Oil Blend Diesel Fuel
http://youtu.be/e9xfsDQ8JM0

Blending Kerosene with Vegetable Oil to Make Waste Oil Blend Diesel Fuel
http://youtu.be/Y5JpqUDRUW0

[Captaincademan Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Captaincademan]

Re: Does gasoline remain dissolved in waste oil blend diesel fuel?

Jeffery, whilst I am not gunna watch all of those vids, the list of products you are willing to make fuel out of doesnt inspire me. There is no way known i would put acetone, thinners or other agressive fluids through my fuel pump. Just because something mixes with wvo, it doesnt mean its safe or mechanically sound to do so. Please dont champion these toxic brews as 'diesel fuel'. If you want mix things like kero, petrol, heater fuel, oils etc go for it, but fir goodness sake some newbie is gunna read this and think its a safe course of action as it is on a very respectable forum.

[Tony From West Oz Vice Chairperson of WARFA Find all posts View Profile Close Tony From West Oz]

Re: Does gasoline remain dissolved in waste oil blend diesel fuel?

The problem, Tony, that I have noticed with alternative diesel fuels forums is they tend to be run by people with little scientific training and a profound resentment toward anyone who blends. Blenders are thus commonly dismissed as idiots on these forums, and therefore systematically and cosnistently abused.

Jeffrey, you have no knowledge of my tertiary qualifications or my non-instutionalised learning on which to base yet another assertion.

which In such an environmnet there is little ooportunity for blenders to express his or her successful experiences with blending, thus all we see on such forums is misinformation posted by people who are not blenders, and who resent blending, and often resort to character assassinations of blender. This forum is an example of that behavior.

Jeffrey, as a blender myself, and one who does In-Tank blending, I have just asked for proof of your assertions.
It does not matter to me that your "blend" is thoroughly mixed or not, I just don't do it that way. You however, are making statements without ANY proof, or any reasonable testing to show that your assertions are justifiable.

I have provided a weekly video on blending on my YouTube channel, where I have done back flips to demonstarte that blending is the easiest and cheapest way to convert waste oils into diesel fuel; including spending hundreds of dollars on calibrated scientific instrumentats to back up my experiments and premises, in addition to having a 40 year technical career that included time in petroleum research for one of the largest petroleum companies in the world. However, none of that ever satisifies those who are invested in their beleif system that blending will not work. So, why should I continue to provide research for a group of people with absolutely no technical training at all, who will always find a reason to dismiss my work, and consistently resort to assassinating my character?

If you can take the time to justify your statements instead of flying off the handle and accusing us of "character assassination", you may even earn some credibility. Once you achieve credibility, you then can earn respect. That is the way of society, not just this forum.

Blenders will find far more informed support for their blending activities on the follow two forums than anywhere else on the WWW

Beyond Biodiesel
BeyondBiodiesel.org - Index

vegetableoildiesel.co.uk
vegetableoildiesel.co.uk - Powered by XMB

Thank you for the links. I have been on both of those sites in the past, but prefer a site which has relevance in Australia.
I have suggested a simple test which you can do to justify your assertion "that the gasoline will blend with vegetable oil without any agitation". You most likely already have the equipment to perform these tests

• Thermometer
• Cup viscometer (or make your own from a pop bottle)
• stopwatch (all mobile phones have one of these )
• Pencil and paper

Perform, these tests and publish your results, or accept that people WILL continue to challenge your unproven assertions.

Best wishes,
Tony

[tillyfromparadise Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close tillyfromparadise]

Re: Does gasoline remain dissolved in waste oil blend diesel fuel?

Hi Jeffrey,

The problem, Tony, that I have noticed with alternative diesel fuels forums is they tend to be run by people with little scientific training and a profound resentment toward anyone who blends. Blenders are thus commonly dismissed as idiots on these forums, and therefore systematically and cosnistently abused.In such an environmnet there is little ooportunity for blenders to express his or her successful experiences with blending, thus all we see on such forums is misinformation posted by people who are not blenders, and who resent blending, and often resort to character assassinations of blender. This forum is an example of that behavior.

That may be the case on some forums but not this one. Many of us have a scientific background and routinely do blending. People who posts to this forum are judged solely on the quality of their input.

I have provided a weekly video on blending on my YouTube channel, where I have done back flips to demonstarte that blending is the easiest and cheapest way to convert waste oils into diesel fuel;

From what I have read and seen, you seem to spend an inordinate large amount of your time routinely pulling out you injectors to clean them because they are always fouling. At my age I have no interested in doing this. To each his own.

including spending hundreds of dollars on calibrated scientific instrumentats to back up my experiments and premises,

It is a shame you did not include any of your test equipment when you designed the above test.

So, why should I continue to provide research for a group of people with absolutely no technical training at all, who will always find a reason to dismiss my work, and consistently resort to assassinating my character?

The problem is with the quality of your "research"
In the above video your test results are based solely on visual observation. What you are describing as occurring is not what is actually occurring in the video.
Also you make assumptions and claims that are not valid. For instance your statement that because you can not see an emulsion means that the gasoline and WVO have not separated is not valid.
Also you assume that if two liquids are miscible that means that once they are poured into the same container they will immediatly and completely blend together with no aggitation or mixing. This is also an invalid assumption.

[Tim-HJ61 Donating Member Find all posts View Profile Close Tim-HJ61]

Re: Does gasoline remain dissolved in waste oil blend diesel fuel?

The problem, Tony, that I have noticed with alternative diesel fuels forums is they tend to be run by people with little scientific training and a profound resentment toward anyone who blends. Blenders are thus commonly dismissed as idiots on these forums, and therefore systematically and cosnistently abused. In such an environmnet there is little ooportunity for blenders to express his or her successful experiences with blending, thus all we see on such forums is misinformation posted by people who are not blenders, and who resent blending, and often resort to character assassinations of blender. This forum is an example of that behavior.

I have provided a weekly video on blending on my YouTube channel, where I have done back flips to demonstarte that blending is the easiest and cheapest way to convert waste oils into diesel fuel; including spending hundreds of dollars on calibrated scientific instrumentats to back up my experiments and premises, in addition to having a 40 year technical career that included time in petroleum research for one of the largest petroleum companies in the world. However, none of that ever satisifies those who are invested in their beleif system that blending will not work. So, why should I continue to provide research for a group of people with absolutely no technical training at all, who will always find a reason to dismiss my work, and consistently resort to assassinating my character?

Jeffrey you are being disingenuous and unreasonable in your criticism of this forum. I remind you it was the owner and moderators of this forum that, after lobbying from yourself and other regular users, established the blending subforum. Free ranging discussion was allowed and encouraged and speaking as a moderator, I have no issue against blending in suitable vehicles. In presenting alternative fuel use to public forums as I do from time to time, I always include blending as a viable option. It is not suitable for all, just as a WVO in a two tank is not suitable for all vehicles, nor straight biodiesel. My 12h-t Direct Injection Landcruiser is not suited to high blends such as 85/15 commonly used where we are in Western Australia. Why, because it is a DI motor and a high blend increases the risk of oxidation in the injectors to a point that I am not prepared to try it. For DI motors, a proper two tank system is the best option, or biodiesel, or low blends.

Let me repeat and in bold Blending is a viable option that can be considered for some vehicles.

I see no evidence of blenders being dismissed as idiots, or systematically and consistently abused on this forum, nor is there any actions by the forum owner or moderators to stifle debate. Where we crack down is when postings get personal. This has not been an issue in this forum for several months, and it is important that it remains so. As Cade says, this is respectable forum, or I like to think it is. Some forum members also have a low tolerance for what Aussies describe as snake oil salesmen, bullxxit artists, or those who make far fetched or spurious claims. They are welcome to challenge those posters as long as the debate does not descend into personal criticism and the discussion stays on topic.

Any of us are free to continue to spend our time in any way we wish and can choose to contribute or not - you have chosen to rejoin the discussion, I have chosen to respond.

Referring to your video and the premise that blends with ULP Gasoline (by the way, I appreciated your use of dual measurement descriptions in your video) can do so without agitation, I cannot see the practical application of it. The blenders that participate in the local group I am in, always blend outside their tank, turnover the blend several times, leave it sit and then fill their tank. They all have extensive experience with blending and have no misadventure. Our friends from the Oliomobile site in Europe recommend turning over the blend 6 or 8 times to ensure proper mixing, in particular for vehicles with more vulnerable IP's to ensure there are no layers that can occur inside the tank. I don't think anyone here is disputing that once properly blended, ULP does not separate. What they ARE concerned about is to ensure the fuels are properly blended prior to going into the tank, and they do this by agitation. It would seem they, like others, do not experience the precipitation you are concerned about, and are trying to avoid when you are promoting the concept of no agitation blending. For all the blenders I know, it is an idea and concept that has no practical relevance.

Back to your video, please compare the images at 5:00 and 8:00. Whether the difference is caused by different lighting or camera angle, or by separation, there is clearly a difference in the appearance of the top of the samples. You can't blame forum members from being sceptical of your claims when there is a such a difference. From my humanities professional background, I am wondering if using a glass beaker instead of the plastic bottle with all it's bumps and lighting diffractions, and keeping the camera mounted in the same position with the same background lighting might resolve the problem, but as it stands, it looks for all the world to me like there is separation occurring. Unless you follow scientific principles of minimising the variables in experiments, you're not giving your proposition the best chance of being accepted.

Tim

[tillyfromparadise Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close tillyfromparadise]

Re: Does gasoline remain dissolved in waste oil blend diesel fuel?

Hi Jeffrey,
This is a miscibility test you can perform.
I assume you have purchased paint that requires mixing at the point of sale.
These types of paint are mixed at the shop with various squirts of colour tint added to a can of Base colour to achieve the exact colour you want. The colour tint is miscible with the base stock

Go to your local paint store and ask them to add two squirts of deepest black tint to a small Can of white base.
Leave this tin sit on the counter.
How long does it take for the black tint to thoroughly and completely mix with the white base with no aggitation or mechanical mixing.

Make sure you bring your lunch with you while performing this experiment

[Jeffrey S. Brooks Banned Find all posts View Profile Close Jeffrey S. Brooks]

Re: Does gasoline remain dissolved in waste oil blend diesel fuel?

Back to your video, please compare the images at 5:00 and 8:00. Whether the difference is caused by different lighting or camera angle, or by separation, there is clearly a difference in the appearance of the top of the samples. You can't blame forum members from being sceptical of your claims when there is a such a difference. From my humanities professional background, I am wondering if using a glass beaker instead of the plastic bottle with all it's bumps and lighting diffractions, and keeping the camera mounted in the same position with the same background lighting might resolve the problem, but as it stands, it looks for all the world to me like there is separation occurring. Unless you follow scientific principles of minimising the variables in experiments, you're not giving your proposition the best chance of being accepted.

Tim

Tim, there are some members of your forum who have hijacked this forum; whether you are willing to accept that or not. This has caused me to lose interest in responding to the inquiry of those members, because their comments reflect either a profound lack of knowledge of chemistry and physics, and most certainly do not reflect reality, and suggest strongly of lies.

To respond to your specific question regarding an apparent color change in my video, you will note that the sample containers that I am using are common disposable juice containers that are readily available to me free. However, they have differences in shape for visual appeal and strength that cause artificial color changes in the sample in the container. This is the explanation for the color change in the above video. If you examine the other 14 videos they all clearly show diffusion turbulence decreases over time in the blend sample, and there is no such diffraction differences observed after several minutes to 24 hours.