High Melting Point Fats/Gum Solvent.

[PeterAC Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close PeterAC]

A while back I took a short cut with my filtering and ended up with problems.

I needed a significant amount of fuel for a trip, quickly. So I passed my usual course filtering stage ie Bunnings Bag, and pumped the 12month old visually clear settled oil straight through my 5 um bag filter. After a 8 hour??? drive I arrived at Jindabyne. A week there of short drives and the car was progressively struggling to start hot or cold and getting worse. Significant loss of power over several days. The pre filter was removed and found clogged up with gum/fat. It would not melt even under hot tap water. I replaced the pre and main filter. Car started much better but I was concerned now.

I remembered Jeffrey Brooks suggesting Lacquer Thinner as a solvent for the fats. I was apprehensive but had no better idea to prevent problem on the rest of the trip. I didn't know at what concentration to use it. So here goes.

There was 15lts of oil with 20% unleaded in it. The weather was warm. I bought a litre of lacquer thinners and put it all in the tank. I thought, low fuel quarter of a tank, winding roads, swishing, solvent, would help dissolve fat/gum. After maybe 20mins the power was much better and the engine sounded much better and continued to improve as I drove. I have not had problems since I returned and gone back to 'no short cuts in filtering'.

Forgive me if the details are not exact and my grammar is not up to scratch but this is as best as I can describe and it worked for me. I don't know if there was any long term damage to the engine, IP or whatever, I can only note the car is running as good as it was on diesel when purchased. I am not suggesting you do it, or that it will work for your car but I will probably use the Lacquer Thinner again if the pre filter clogs up again. Hope this is useful info to someone. By the way I have a 1980 300D Merc.

Regards

Peter<><

[Jeffrey S. Brooks Banned Find all posts View Profile Close Jeffrey S. Brooks]

Re: High Melting Point Fats/Gum Solvent.

Thanks, Peter, for posting your success in blending lacquer thinner at about 7&#37;. While lacquer thinner can be hard on seals and hoses, in most cases, solvents under 10% in any fuel blend will not cause harm for seals and hoses. Additionally, seals and hoses that swell due to the presence of an aggressive solvent will return to their normal size and shape once the percentage of the offending solvent is reduced through saturation with petroleum distillates.

[Graham Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Graham]

Re: High Melting Point Fats/Gum Solvent.

Graham
When you say pre filter do you mean the strainer in the injector pump . There may be another strainer in the return line as well. I learnt the expensive way to carry a spare IP strainer. I got scammed by a diesel mechanic into a new pump when I wasn't to know there was stainer in the pump. When this strainer is plugged you can change the filters and it wont make a difference. I suggest you do a trial run to remove it at home so you are familiar with doing it on the road. And carry something to wash it in.

[PeterAC Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close PeterAC]

Re: High Melting Point Fats/Gum Solvent.

Hi Graham,
On the Merc there are 2 filters. One is the main spinon fuel filter and before this is an inline course prefilter. I guess it is 50 micron, don't really know.

Yes, I have also been stung badly by a diesel shop. Westend Diesel in Sydney and have heard no end of problems from other people who have been in the same situation with them. I even stumbled on a former employee of theirs who confirmed everything that they did to me was common practice at the place. Can't recommend them enough! Bugger, I think that issue has touched a raw nerve.

For one in the Hunter that can be trusted is Rosier Diesel in Kotara. My brother in law from Denman uses one in Tamworth.

[peter1 Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close peter1]

Re: High Melting Point Fats/Gum Solvent.

Peter I would say it is impossible for the cause of your problems to be because you didn't pre filter through the bunnings bag.
If there was anything in the oil the coarse filter would have caught, it is only logic the much finer 5UM bag would have caught even more of it regardless of any pre filtering.

What I would say happened is the fats dropped out of the oil when they were in the cooler climate and the short runs you were doing didn't allow the filters or the oil in the tank to warm up enough to go back into soloution. From your story you seem to indicate that when the thinners was put in the vehicle, you drove it for at least 20 Min with a low fuel level in the tank.

If you have not driven it this long before you put the thinners in, the warming of everything under the bonnet and the return fuel would allow the improvement you described anyway.
Is your fuel system heated and how short were your short trips?

What sort of "gum" did you observe? I cannot see how there would be any build up of gum as against common fats in that time or again where corse filtering would remove it where finer filtering would allow it to pass.

I would say that your filtering had nothing at all to do with the problem you experienced and it wa more a case of shot trips and the cooler climate that allowed dissolved fats to drop out which the bunning bag would not have caught if the oil was filterd through it at the same temp.
While the thinners may have helped dissolve some fats, If you ran the car longer than before and allowed everything to heat up more, that would have been the significant factor in the problem becoming rectified.

[tillyfromparadise Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close tillyfromparadise]

Re: High Melting Point Fats/Gum Solvent.

% Hi Jeffrey,
Can you describe the tests you performed and the results you achieved that makes you confident that this statement about seal and hoses swelling and returning to normal when using lacquer thinner in different percentages is correct.

Thanks, Peter, for posting your success in blending lacquer thinner at about 7&#37;. While lacquer thinner can be hard on seals and hoses, in most cases, solvents under 10% in any fuel blend will not cause harm for seals and hoses. Additionally, seals and hoses that swell due to the presence of an aggressive solvent will return to their normal size and shape once the percentage of the offending solvent is reduced through saturation with petroleum distillates.

[PeterAC Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close PeterAC]

Re: High Melting Point Fats/Gum Solvent.

Sorry. This post was written late and I had issues with submitting it and found I lost it in cyberspace at 3am. I thought the lot was gone and just found half the mish mash posted through last night. Have now had a second go. Hope it makes sense.

Peter thankyou for reading my post carefully. I agree with what you have pointed out, they were my thoughts as to why I took the short cut in the first place. I thought the 5um would catch anything significant. The climate though was no cooler than it is in Newcastle at the moment and I have not the problems now that I did then. The short runs, lots, around town were just that, 1 km to and return but there was also one long run which was when I changed the filters. I had done about 2 hours (with 3 to go) of driving by that point so the heated fuel etc would have melted any fats if it was ever going to do it by then. There was a post by a member (Bluef I think) that the fats, accumulated in his truck, melted at approx 80C, this would explain why they did not clog up the IP but doesn't explain why my metal fuel lines weren't clagged as the fats had reached the prefilter. Maybe the metal lines transfered the heat from the tank and eventually cooled by the distance nearer to the prefilter keeping them clear most of the way. No, I don't have any heating system, just the stock car. Its just a pile of questions to me except that I took a short cut and had a problem.

The only issue I can think about the filtering is the bunnings bag has the thin layer of fats which accumulates on the inside walls which slow down the filtering (but also get rid of the black carbon flecks). Again, this is the reason I chose to take the short cut in the first place. These flecks were in abundance with the fat when I cleaned out the prefilter. My current prefilter is still the same one as what I changed to back then, 2 or so months ago, and has no fat and few flecks in it. I have gone back to the using the bunnings bag and there are no issues. I post back in the middle of winter if there are any it should happen by then.

Anyway, if the lacquer thinner did do the trick great, if not, it is still good info. It is all useful knowledge that hopefully keeps this activity of ours as least time consuming and kind to our hip pocket and car as possible. Sorry I didn't put all useful info in first post but I am not the most effective and efficient writer I know to make clear my own thoughts.

Thankyou for questioning what I wrote as this helps me evaluate it more closely.

Regards

Peter<><

[peter1 Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close peter1]

Re: High Melting Point Fats/Gum Solvent.

&#37; Hi Jeffrey,
Can you describe the tests you performed and the results you achieved that makes you confident that this statement about seal and hoses swelling and returning to normal when using lacquer thinner in different percentages is correct.

I'd be interested to know as well.
You seem to use and be knowledgeable on so many different blending agents Jeff I don't know how you find the time to do all the tests and evaluate the results as well as make all the you tube vids you do.

I take it you have devised a set regime of testing to check all the factors of different solvents like how they blend, effects on seals and hoses, Cloud point etc so you can compare every one of them against measurable parameters. Could you show us the list of tests you conduct on each blending agent you advocate?

[Jeffrey S. Brooks Banned Find all posts View Profile Close Jeffrey S. Brooks]

Re: High Melting Point Fats/Gum Solvent.

I'd be interested to know as well.
You seem to use and be knowledgeable on so many different blending agents Jeff I don't know how you find the time to do all the tests and evaluate the results as well as make all the you tube vids you do.

I take it you have devised a set regime of testing to check all the factors of different solvents like how they blend, effects on seals and hoses, Cloud point etc so you can compare every one of them against measurable parameters. Could you show us the list of tests you conduct on each blending agent you advocate?

I used the very highly sophisticated, expensive, and most reliable test of observation. I have observed that a viton o-ring exposed to high concentrations of alcohols or polar solvents will swell, but will return to its normal size when the offended solvent is eliminated or reduced below about 10&#37;. I also have a vinyl hose that I use as a sight glass on my blending tank. I noticed that it swells when I pour acetone on top of whatever waste oil blend I am experimenting with, but the hose will return to normal size and shape when the concentration of the offending solvent is reduced below 10%. I do not have a before an after image of the same hose to show you at this time. However, here is a photo of a hose that swelled, then returned to normal size later.
Swollen sight glass due to acetone

[SUZUDDIS Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close SUZUDDIS]

Re: High Melting Point Fats/Gum Solvent.

JSB. That black tank looks good and good to see someone can post pic's.

[PeterAC Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close PeterAC]

Re: High Melting Point Fats/Gum Solvent.

Excuse me Peter1,

I very much appreciate your knowledge, input, and your ability to analyse information posted on the forum. I have also noticed that JSB and Tilly although they may not agree with each other 'At Times!!!' are appearing to converse in a much different tone around each other now for what ever reason. With this the tone of the forum is moving back to what I knew it as when I first came on board. Discuss issues, challenge statements, post up different points of view, agree with parts of statements you don't have to agree with it all, agree to disagree but please leave the other stuff out of it.

NOTE. I am not on JSB's side or Tilly's side, I just want this back to a respectful place where information is shared and discussed.

Regards from another

Peter<><

[peter1 Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close peter1]

Re: High Melting Point Fats/Gum Solvent.

Excuse me Peter1,

I very much appreciate your knowledge, input, and your ability to analyse information posted on the forum. I have also noticed that JSB and Tilly although they may not agree with each other 'At Times!!!' are appearing to converse in a much different tone around each other now for what ever reason. With this the tone of the forum is moving back to what I knew it as when I first came on board. Discuss issues, challenge statements, post up different points of view, agree with parts of statements you don't have to agree with it all, agree to disagree but please leave the other stuff out of it.

NOTE. I am not on JSB's side or Tilly's side, I just want this back to a respectful place where information is shared and discussed.

Regards from another

Peter<><

Peter you see to be indicating that I have not been respectful to jeffery.
Would you care to explain what you have issue with?

Jeffery holds himself out as an authority figure and speaks of his information as fact. I would like to know how those " Facts" were arrived at.

In my learning curve in this and other games where I have learned from the net I have been given much bad information by those whom purport their belief as fact. I going by this information which has proven to be anything but factual, I have cost myself much time, frustration and money.
I make no apology for questioning the information people espouse and clarifying it's validity before I take it on board especially when it contradicts my own experience.

Jeffery takes much time to post his information and frankly myself and others have found an amount of it to be questionable and even downright wrong.
If asking what tests someone did to base their statements on is something you consider disrespectful, then I'm sorry but I am not going to change it.
I would assume that someone that puts so much time into presenting information on so many things to do with veg blending would have a series of tests they do in order to make fair and equal comparison rather than just a hit and miss approach which may fail to uncover certain advantages or disadvantages of a certain material.

Maybe my thinking is off but based on professionals tests I have seen, that's what they seem to do and it certainly seems logical to me.
I believe I was polite, respectful and asked a completely valid question. By your own statement you said that it was OK to challenge statements and at worst, that is all that I did so I don't understand your issue.

I also believe that the answer given justifies my question completely and in fact proves the necessity to question things people put forward as fact rather than just blindly take them at face value.
There is more than enough misinformation in the Veg fuels game, I have been bitten before and now prefer to be cautious in what I believe.

[tillyfromparadise Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close tillyfromparadise]

Re: High Melting Point Fats/Gum Solvent.

I used the very highly sophisticated, expensive, and most reliable test of observation.

When you say you used observation can you be more specific.
For instance I assume your observations involved taking before and after measurements of different parameters of both the O ring and vinyl hose using a micrometer when soaking them in the various and sundry solvents and writing down all these different measurements which you can post to the forum so that we could all get a first hand knowledge of what your experimentation actually showed.

I have observed that a viton o-ring exposed to high concentrations of alcohols or polar solvents will swell, but will return to its normal size when the offended solvent is eliminated or reduced below about 10&#37;. I also have a vinyl hose that I use as a sight glass on my blending tank.

This is where some people such as me might find your original statement somewhat misleading.
Your original statement;
"While lacquer thinner can be hard on seals and hoses, in most cases, solvents under 10% in any fuel blend will not cause harm for seals and hoses.
Additionally, seals and hoses that swell due to the presence of an aggressive solvent will return to their normal size and shape once the percentage of the offending solvent is reduced through saturation with petroleum distillates." Makes me think that you are talking about all the "run of the mill" seals and hoses that are frequently made from nitrile rubber that are found in most cars.
Almost everyone knows that viton will stand up to most things so the fact that you have seen that to be the case is not particularly news worthy.
As far as your vinyl hose goes, I am not sure how often vinyl is used for fuel line in diesel cars.
So it seems that at best, your above statement about solvents is only valid with viton and possibly vinyl.

I find it very hard to believe that the frosted and apparently swollen vinyl tube you show in your picture ever returned to anything vaguely approaching it's original clarity, diameter, strength and elasticity. I could be wrong though.

[PeterAC Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close PeterAC]

Re: High Melting Point Fats/Gum Solvent.

Peter1

With respect, there is no need to further explain. If you discern the tone in your post to JSB to be respectful then there it is.

There is no question of your right to challenge what someone posts and I also find JSB's statements out there and need to be challenged/questioned/analysed/scrutinised as much as mine.

I will send you a PM with my mobile for any further clarification.


Regards

Peter<><

[Jeffrey S. Brooks Banned Find all posts View Profile Close Jeffrey S. Brooks]

Re: High Melting Point Fats/Gum Solvent.

In my learning curve in this and other games where I have learned from the net I have been given much bad information by those whom purport their belief as fact. I going by this information which has proven to be anything but factual, I have cost myself much time, frustration and money.
I make no apology for questioning the information people espouse and clarifying it's validity before I take it on board especially when it contradicts my own experience.

I agree peter1, I have found many frauds posing as “experts” on alternative fuels forums. Sadly, I have found most of those frauds are the forum moderators, or their friends, who are typically deeply threatened by true experts on their forums, so they harass the experts until they leave that forum in disgust.

JSB. That black tank looks good and good to see someone can post pic's.[IMG]file:///Users/jeffreybrooks/Library/Caches/TemporaryItems/msoclip/0clip_image002.png[/IMG]

Thanks, SUZUDDIS, I try to document my work with photos and videos. I find too often the posers on alternative fuels forums make ridiculous claims, like petrol does not blend with waste oils, but they never provide photos or videos to back up their idiotic beliefs.

So, I just posted my 40 years of experience with o-rings and solvents. No one needs to take my word for it. Most of you are using cartridge water filters to process your waste oils into diesel fuel. Most of you have most probably replaced the OEM o-ring that came with the cartridge water filters for viton ones. So, the next time you change your cartridge water filter, then try soaking the viton o-ring in acetone or lacquer thinner for about 5 minutes. You should notice that the o-ring will swell to the point that it will not fit in the grove of the cartridge water filter canister. Then dry the o-ring off and let it sit dry for an hour to a day, then try putting it back into its grove in the cartridge water filter. You should notice that the o-ring has shrunk back to its original size.

If you want to try the same experiment with a vinyl hose, then go to the hardware store and purchase 1 foot of vinyl hose. Take it home and measure it to the nearest mm/1/8^th inch, then immerse it in acetone or lacquer thinner for one day. You should notice that the hose section will nearly double in size. Then take the hose out of the solvent, and let it dry for a day or two. You should notice that the hose will return to its original size.

And, while you are at it, put some vegetable oil into a clear jar, half full, then put half again as much petrol on top of the oil. Make sure the oil is liquid, and the temperature of your experiment is about 75F/25c. Use either canola oil or some vegetable oil that is liquid at the temperature of your experiment. Observe carefully when you pour the petrol on top of the vegetable oil.

If you do these experiments, then you will know who is the fraud around here.

If you want more info. on O-rings, then try this link:
O-Rings West
You will find a tab “Fluid Compatibility” Click it if you want to know if your o-rings are compatible with a solvent.