Unconfigured Ad Widget

Collapse

Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Blending issues

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Blending issues

    What is the ratio when using shellite compared to using is it still ULP 80% oil to 20%ULP .I have also running a DUDADIESEL heat exchanger Can somebody please help.I also clean my WVO using a us filtermaxxx centrifuge.Cause Iam having trouble with a wax build up in filters and I thought that Shellite my help disperse the wax.

  • #2
    Re: Blending issues

    whathe,
    Welcome back to the forum. It has been a long time since you posted here.
    I have moved this post into its own thread as it seems to relate more to your issues with "wax" than with blending with 'Blending with Naptha'.

    Have you taken a sample of your "wax" and tested it to see if it is actually a high melting point oil? High melting point oils can be problematic in some vehicles.
    To remove the high melting point (HMP) oils, I usually 'cold' filter the oil to remove any solids. Any of the HMP oils which are solid or semi-solid will be caught in the filter.
    A centrifuge will not remove HMP oils or waxes or anything else which has a density very close to the density of your oil. Centrifuges also seem to work best when the oil is heated (the HMP oils are fully liquid at these temperatures). Long term settling (>2 months) also works well at removing the HMP oils.

    In relation to your blend of Oil and ULP, I have found, in my car, that a blend of 10% ULP is the maximum I can use before the fuel consumption increases significantly.

    You may wish to update your location in your profile. "Australia" is pretty vague and it would be difficult for members to advise you on issues which may be related to your climate.

    Regards,
    Tony
    Life is a journey, with problems to solve, lessons to learn, but most of all, experiences to enjoy.

    Current Vehicles in stable:
    '06 Musso Sports 4X4 Manual Crew Cab tray back.
    '04 Rexton 4X4 Automatic SUV
    '2014 Toyota Prius (on ULP) - Wife's car

    Previous Vehicles:
    '90 Mazda Capella. (2000 - 2003) My first Fatmobile. Converted to fun on veggie oil with a 2 tank setup.
    '80 Mercedes 300D. 2 tank conversion [Sold]
    '84 Mercedes 300D. 1 tank, no conversion. Replaced engine with rebuilt OM617A turbodiesel engine. Finally had good power. Engine donor for W123 coupe. (body parted out and carcass sold for scrap.)
    '85 Mercedes Benz W123 300CD Turbodiesel
    '99 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my darling Wife's car)[sold]
    '98 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my car)[sold]
    '06 Musso Sports Crew Cab well body. [Head gasket blew!]
    '04 Rexton SUV 2.9L Turbodiesel same as Musso - Our Family car.
    '06 Musso sports Crew Cab Trayback - My hack (no air cond, no heater).

    Searching the Biofuels Forum using Google
    Adding images and/or documents to your posts

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Blending issues

      Thanks tony I appreciate your help .I have stopped production of my Bio fuel until I figure out how to get around this problem one thought was to have a 10 micron filter bag on the outlet of the centrifuge just to grab any wax or any other unwanted particles before it goes in to my main blending drum what do you think ?

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Blending issues

        whathe,
        Are you heating the oil for centrifuging?
        If so, the filter will not collect any fats.
        Have you tested your 'wax'?
        Good to see your profile has been updated.
        Regards,
        Tony
        Life is a journey, with problems to solve, lessons to learn, but most of all, experiences to enjoy.

        Current Vehicles in stable:
        '06 Musso Sports 4X4 Manual Crew Cab tray back.
        '04 Rexton 4X4 Automatic SUV
        '2014 Toyota Prius (on ULP) - Wife's car

        Previous Vehicles:
        '90 Mazda Capella. (2000 - 2003) My first Fatmobile. Converted to fun on veggie oil with a 2 tank setup.
        '80 Mercedes 300D. 2 tank conversion [Sold]
        '84 Mercedes 300D. 1 tank, no conversion. Replaced engine with rebuilt OM617A turbodiesel engine. Finally had good power. Engine donor for W123 coupe. (body parted out and carcass sold for scrap.)
        '85 Mercedes Benz W123 300CD Turbodiesel
        '99 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my darling Wife's car)[sold]
        '98 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my car)[sold]
        '06 Musso Sports Crew Cab well body. [Head gasket blew!]
        '04 Rexton SUV 2.9L Turbodiesel same as Musso - Our Family car.
        '06 Musso sports Crew Cab Trayback - My hack (no air cond, no heater).

        Searching the Biofuels Forum using Google
        Adding images and/or documents to your posts

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Blending issues

          No tony Iam not preheating the oil before it goes into the centrifuge .How do you test the wax .But I think I will clean it then let it sit for a then blend it ?

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Blending issues

            Warm up a sample of your 'wax' to see if it melts. Take note the temperature that it happens at and report back here.


            Regards,
            Tony
            Life is a journey, with problems to solve, lessons to learn, but most of all, experiences to enjoy.

            Current Vehicles in stable:
            '06 Musso Sports 4X4 Manual Crew Cab tray back.
            '04 Rexton 4X4 Automatic SUV
            '2014 Toyota Prius (on ULP) - Wife's car

            Previous Vehicles:
            '90 Mazda Capella. (2000 - 2003) My first Fatmobile. Converted to fun on veggie oil with a 2 tank setup.
            '80 Mercedes 300D. 2 tank conversion [Sold]
            '84 Mercedes 300D. 1 tank, no conversion. Replaced engine with rebuilt OM617A turbodiesel engine. Finally had good power. Engine donor for W123 coupe. (body parted out and carcass sold for scrap.)
            '85 Mercedes Benz W123 300CD Turbodiesel
            '99 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my darling Wife's car)[sold]
            '98 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my car)[sold]
            '06 Musso Sports Crew Cab well body. [Head gasket blew!]
            '04 Rexton SUV 2.9L Turbodiesel same as Musso - Our Family car.
            '06 Musso sports Crew Cab Trayback - My hack (no air cond, no heater).

            Searching the Biofuels Forum using Google
            Adding images and/or documents to your posts

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Blending issues

              You may consider the following stepwise approach:

              1. Blend
              2. Cool (ideally the coolest temperature the fuel will be exposed to on a cold start but not critically) for 12 hours.
              3. Re-centrifuge or settle and/or filter (10 microns if not 5) to separate at the cooler temp.

              PS Only Kerosine dissolves wax if that's what it is, And it's origin may well be the old dino deposits in your fuel tank. For this and other reasons I would not use anything but Kerosine for blending or avgas if you can get it (and don't mind breaching another federal and or state statute or two besides the ones you already do. There is a way around this but it is too polluting for me to tell you.)
              bushpig
              Junior Member
              Last edited by bushpig; 1 February 2014, 01:30 PM. Reason: forgot/assumed knowledge

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Blending issues

                Hi Bushpig, when you said avgas do you mean Avtur/ Jet A1?

                Avgas is a petrol based fuel used in piston engines.
                Avtur/ Jet A1 is kerosene possibly with additives and is used in jet engines.

                A couple of years ago I asked the price of a 200 litre drum of kerosene at my local depot and was told $400.
                I did not chase it further.

                It is my understanding that nowdays ALL kerosene is produced on the Jet A1 production line because jet fuel is by far the biggest user of kerosene.
                Then any kerosene that is needed for other uses such as motor fuel like number 1 diesel/ Alpine Diesel or the little blue 1 litre bottles you buy in the store comes from Jet A1 production.
                tillyfromparadise
                Senior Member
                Last edited by tillyfromparadise; 1 February 2014, 02:01 PM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Blending issues

                  Ahh yes Tilly, I did mean the kerosene based variety which I thought was avgas but I have never bought the stuff so my ignorance as to the true naming of it. Of course; even if I thought different I would always defer to you, of all people, about aviation fuels.....

                  I last bought a 200l drum Kerosene in Moree for less than $200, but that is now some years ago. I think I brought my own drum though. I will enquire Monday and let you know.

                  BP

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Blending issues

                    Originally posted by tillyfromparadise View Post

                    It is my understanding that nowdays ALL kerosene is produced on the Jet A1 production line because jet fuel is by far the biggest user of kerosene.
                    Then any kerosene that is needed for other uses such as motor fuel like number 1 diesel/ Alpine Diesel or the little blue 1 litre bottles you buy in the store comes from Jet A1 production.
                    Having bought Jet A1 from the local airport on numerous occasions, I don't think they are the same end product although domestic kero may be the base stock for the Jet.
                    The stuff I know to be Jet fuel is very different stuff to the kero you get in bottles. The most noticeable thing is the additives of jet fuel, which I believe to be mainly anti freeze, that is left on funnels and anything you spill the jet onto. It leaves a substantial powdery deposit when it dries and it tends to burn the skin if left in contact. I know the guys at the fuel depot at the airport don't like filling the drums for this reason.
                    Avgas they don't care about, when you ask for Jet they start donning the PPE like they are filming a safety instruction Video.

                    They may pull the domestic kero off the line before they add the jet additives which would be logical but it's certainly not as far as I can see anything like the same end product.

                    I have priced Kero from Chemical Companies and even managed to find a servo still selling it but they wanted about $1 a litre more than I could get the Avgas for last time I checked. Since then I just go to the airport with the metal jerry cans they insist on and tell them it's for parts washing. They won't sell it to you if you say you are going to use it in a vehicle due to not being taxed.

                    I remember when I was a kid that kero was everywhere. The only reason a servo wouldn't have it at the pump was if they had ran out and were waiting on more. I used to go with my grandfather to buy it in all sorts of drums and funny styled but purpose made containers. He had pressure stoves, blow lamps, heaters and even a fridge at the onsite Caravan at Kiama that ran on it.
                    He had this Home remedy concoction he used to make up which consisted of Kero, Cleaned lard and I think Epsom salts. It ended up like a paste he used to Bottle as a topical ointment for everything from cracked heals to the black Plague.

                    It must have done some thing, I remember many Neighbours and friends constantly coming and asking if he had any to spare and bring contributions of lard for the next batch. My grandmother would keep a close eye on stocks and put away a good supply of her own as running out of it was something she didn't want to contemplate. The kero smell was very strong and once he added some scent to it but all the oldies reckoned it wasn't as good without the kero smell.

                    He'd have had a heart attack and died if he hadn't already if he saw kero at the supermarket for upwards of $5 a litre.
                    Probably didn't pay that much for a boot full of it when I went with him to get it.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Blending issues

                      Its also it's also got an anti-bug biocide in it, along with a host of other bits designed to improve efficiency, burn and storage. Very prone to soluable water. Lots get thrown out every day at every fuel farm at every airport as tankers need to be tested for suspended and coalesced water at the start of each day. If you can get hold of the discarded test fuel, now that is a good source.





                      Originally posted by peter1 View Post
                      Having bought Jet A1 from the local airport on numerous occasions, I don't think they are the same end product although domestic kero may be the base stock for the Jet.
                      The stuff I know to be Jet fuel is very different stuff to the kero you get in bottles. The most noticeable thing is the additives of jet fuel, which I believe to be mainly anti freeze, that is left on funnels and anything you spill the jet onto. It leaves a substantial powdery deposit when it dries and it tends to burn the skin if left in contact. I know the guys at the fuel depot at the airport don't like filling the drums for this reason.
                      Avgas they don't care about, when you ask for Jet they start donning the PPE like they are filming a safety instruction Video.

                      They may pull the domestic kero off the line before they add the jet additives which would be logical but it's certainly not as far as I can see anything like the same end product.

                      I have priced Kero from Chemical Companies and even managed to find a servo still selling it but they wanted about $1 a litre more than I could get the Avgas for last time I checked. Since then I just go to the airport with the metal jerry cans they insist on and tell them it's for parts washing. They won't sell it to you if you say you are going to use it in a vehicle due to not being taxed.

                      I remember when I was a kid that kero was everywhere. The only reason a servo wouldn't have it at the pump was if they had ran out and were waiting on more. I used to go with my grandfather to buy it in all sorts of drums and funny styled but purpose made containers. He had pressure stoves, blow lamps, heaters and even a fridge at the onsite Caravan at Kiama that ran on it.
                      He had this Home remedy concoction he used to make up which consisted of Kero, Cleaned lard and I think Epsom salts. It ended up like a paste he used to Bottle as a topical ointment for everything from cracked heals to the black Plague.

                      It must have done some thing, I remember many Neighbours and friends constantly coming and asking if he had any to spare and bring contributions of lard for the next batch. My grandmother would keep a close eye on stocks and put away a good supply of her own as running out of it was something she didn't want to contemplate. The kero smell was very strong and once he added some scent to it but all the oldies reckoned it wasn't as good without the kero smell.

                      He'd have had a heart attack and died if he hadn't already if he saw kero at the supermarket for upwards of $5 a litre.
                      Probably didn't pay that much for a boot full of it when I went with him to get it.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Blending issues

                        IOC JET A –1:

                        IOC JET A-1 is a petroleum distillate blended from kerosene fractions having Aromatics
                        below 20 % v/v, Total sulphur below 0.25 % mass, Mercaptan Sulphur below 0.002 %
                        mass, freezing point below - 47C and a flash point above 38 C.
                        It contains Static Dissipator additive STADIS 450

                        https://www.iocl.com/Products/ATFSpecifications.pdf

                        Having bought Jet A1 from the local airport on numerous occasions, I don't think they are the same end product although domestic kero may be the base stock for the Jet.
                        No, they are not necessairly the same end product.

                        Certainly additives might be included or left out depending on what it's end use is.
                        For instance there is now a lubricity requirement for #1 diesel so if the kerosene is to be used as diesel fuel it is likely to have an additive to meet the lubricity requirement.
                        If the kerosene was not going to be used as Jet A1 the static dissipatior additive would not be included.
                        A few years ago I was talking with a fellow on another forum who had worked in a refinery in Alaska. He said that the only difference between Jet Fuel and number 1 Diesel that they made was that the Jet fuel was filtered twice instead of once.

                        Actually it is the other way around in many parts of the world and likely to be here in Australia too.
                        There is almost no "domestic" kerosene market in Australia any more, it is virtually all jet fuel.
                        You can no longer buy Power Kerosene and just about everyone now has electric lighting so lighting kerosene is no longer needed..
                        About the only domestic use for kerosene that I can think of is home kerosene heaters in the winter and a bit of Alpine diesel.
                        .
                        I will have to go back out to my friendly depot tomorrow and find out what they have to say.

                        EDIT
                        Here are some interesting production charts for "Jet Fuel" and "Kerosene" that will not allow me to paste them here.

                        In 2010, there were 28 thousand metric tons of "kerosene" produced in Australia, down from 240 thousand metric tons produced in 2000
                        http://www.factfish.com/statistic-co...m%20refineries


                        In 2010 there were 4255 thousand metric tons of "Jet Fuel" produced in Australia, down from 4404 thousand metric tons produced in 2000
                        http://www.factfish.com/statistic-co...l%20production





                        tillyfromparadise
                        Senior Member
                        Last edited by tillyfromparadise; 3 February 2014, 04:44 AM.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Blending issues

                          To bring this back on track
                          I think from what Tony has mentioned try cold filtering with the usual bunnings bag style setup first. let this oil settle then put it through the Fuge.
                          I find with my cleaning that cold filter via a bag filter then upflow settle before a final clean with finer filters makes some really good clean oil. I don't have the cash for a centrifuge but I'd put it after my bag and upflow system. that way any issues you are having will have been cleaned up before the fuge.
                          again like most have mentioned if it's cold filtered most fats will have been stopped before the centrifuge.

                          If it is a wax then you need to identify it first. But from what I see in my oils it is usually just high melting point fats.
                          again testing will help locate the cause of your problems. fats will melt in the sun while insitue but waxes will require more heat to melt.

                          Some more info on what you are finding with your tests would be of help.
                          describe the colour and texture of the residue, what your initial feed stock is and where it is used, what they cook in the oil / lard etc.
                          all these answers will help break down the possible causes.

                          Michael
                          97 Jeep XJ Cherokee on B100. 0 km's on B100 and counting !!!! (Sold)
                          2002 Merc ML270 now on B100. (Sold)
                          2006 Ssangyong Musso 2.9 t idi (Sold)
                          2015 NP300 Navara ( Sold )
                          2018 NP300 Navara ( B5 )

                          Stainless processor with blue water pump.
                          Tetragonula Hockingsi

                          Take the Leap and grow wings on the way down

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Blending issues

                            Just a quick update.

                            I went to a fuel depot here in Paradise and found that the cost of a 200 litre drum of kero is $450
                            When I asked about Jet A1, I was told they get it in bulk each week and deliver it straight to the end consumer. If I gave them a bit of notice they could probably do a drum for about $350.
                            It is great when you know everyone in town.

                            I started asking a few questions and the fellow told me that when they load up in bulk, Kerosene and JET A1 come from the same pipe at the refinery. The only difference is that if they are going to use it for kerosene they give you a bottle of blue dye.
                            He also said that the market for domestic kerosene is very minimal.

                            Another thing I was told is that they are required to wash the bulk tank out with water before loading Jet A1 at the refinery.
                            tillyfromparadise
                            Senior Member
                            Last edited by tillyfromparadise; 3 February 2014, 06:17 PM. Reason: tidy things up

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Blending issues

                              I have been thinking about this and remembering. I remember how my glycerol washed, cold filtered (5 microns industrial filter), honey clear, good enough to put on your salad WVO when put in my fuel tank (300D) deposited grey slimey glick with imbedded granular wax crystals onto and into the fuel filter and gobs of it at first... Even in a heated system ie no fats possible.

                              We assume that you have not mixed it with residual Diesel in the tank. [NEVER mix deisel and WVO or WVO blend unless you particularly want to see the grey glop. As to what you can allow to mix in your tank, BioD 100 and WVO are fine, BioD and Dino are fine BUT NOT WVO and dino.] I would run the machine totally out of one fuel on the open road before putting in the other. (but rarely did I have to bleed my machines.)

                              I reiterate that the source of this wax is not WVO (blended or otherwise) but dino deposits in an old fuel tank. Dino fuel is designed to deal with impurities and floating bits by fixing to a surface and thereby not troubling the filters too much between services, "set and forget" is its motto. On my previous experience some years ago the WVO will clean this up and throw it forward into the filters. This will go on until the tank and system are sparkling clean, then it will occur no more. In the merc 300D I dealt with it by having an extra truck fuel filter in a handy place before the "real one" and a tray of spare cheap truck filter elements. In the initial stages due to clogging I had to change this out regularly on the side of the road, once even at 50 KMs, after 4 months I forgot all about it and neglected the filters, so clean was my system by then.

                              In the laboratory, high grade kerosene is routinely used to dissolve wax. I heard a Chemistry professor say that it was the only solvent that dissolved wax. As an apiarist I could certainly agree that nothing else under my kitchen sink will do it. So if you got wax and want to get rid of it... look to kerosene.

                              Even with Kerosene I doubt that whathe will solve such a wax problem without the filter solution I employed. This is because I believe the cleaning power of the WVO will outstrip the ability of any Kerosene to dissolve it, particularly in the early stages of going to WVO/blend. Later there will be no problem. Do the extra simple truck filter upline from your standard one I say whathe.

                              The other issue with petrol blends is they can get hard to start the more petrol you have in the blend. Not so Kerosene.

                              To share relevant information I accept/know/found:
                              Diesel/distillate is a mixture of over 400 compounds from ethers to long chain waxes. It only averages out to be around C16, "Cetane" which is the idea diesel fuel. Hence a "cetane" number and rating (they are different). Consider Kerosene to be a high grade form of Diesel without the lubricity and it is a mixture of 200 or so compounds (not certain of the number).
                              In Army transport, once you "wax" your diesel it is considered not fit for use and must be discarded. What is this "waxing" of diesel? Well that is where, on a sub zero night with the jerry cans on top of the vehicles the wax comes out of solution and is visible floating on the surface of the fuel. Yes this occurs best when you take summer grade diesel into alpine areas....
                              In some cold areas in Australia in every farm diesel fuel tank there floats globules of wax, some bigger than a baseball, but much more "grows" on the sides and internal protuberances, built up over the years. So tells me the man that delivers it in the non articulated tanker. Farmers aren't so picky as the Australian Army and use it regardless. No doubt the root cause is that the summer diesel is not emptied out before the autumn order goes in, if it is ordered at all.
                              To confirm I have friends on farm dino diesel and on a real cold morning their trucks, Peugeot 307s etc can stop. What do they do? They wait for the sun to come out and warm it up. In conversation to me they attribute this to wax. If it is so then no doubt caused by having a less than Alpine fuel after the summer diesel included in the tanks is taken into account.
                              Around here when i was WVOing Alpine grade dino used to be made with 40% by volume heating oil which in turn is 50% Kerosene... ie at least 20% Kerosene. I don't know what they do now.

                              BP

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X