Problems using Tallow Fat in Cold Climates

[reg Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close reg]

I have a supply of good quality tallow/animal fat.
This appears to make clean bio diesel which i am going to run in my disco.
I blend this with cotton seed, as without mixing them i will not get enough fuel for my requirements.
The problem is that the cloud point is at least 15c, i am worried that this fuel will make my car unreliable due to filter blockage gelled fuel in lines, tank etc.
As i live in southern tasmania the samples of biodiesl i have made tend to be cloudy more than clear.
Put a bit of heat in them and they are crystal clear.
Has any one had this same problem, i know one the car is running the fuel filter heats up through the heat from engine bay, but what about over night.
I really dont want to mix heaps of dino in it and i will not use kero.
Has any one come across a good tank,line filter heater.
There are a few on ebay but am reluctant to fit anything unless i know it is going to work and be reliable (Wife uses car for shift work so you can see my predicament.
P.s i placed this on the melbourne site as there are not many of us down here in tas willing to help each other with bio.
Probably due to lack of good wvo supplies.
Please only reply to this if you have first hand experience as i know what the books and u.s sites are on about but i am not there, it is a bit cooler down here. Wouldnt be a climate problem in i was still living in adelaide but i cant stand the heat.
Thanks
Thanks

[Robert Administrator Find all posts View Profile Close Robert]

Re: problems using tallow fat

Hi Reg,

I think I'll move this to the "making biodiesel" forum as although your questions are specific to your region regarding the temperature, you might get more people viewing it in there.

Does anyone have any advice to offer Reg on this?

[Terry Syd Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Terry Syd]

Re: Problems using Tallow Fat in Cold Climates

Reg, In my experience the easiest thing to do is to add some petrol diesel, but it appears you don't want to do that. Kerosine is just number 1 diesel without the lubricant, so kero will work even better than #2 diesel. You already have heaps of lubricity in the biodiesel (only 2% biodiesel returns enough lubricity to the fuel).

You could also try adding used engine oil to the biodiesel to reduce the gel point.

If you add a vegetable biodiesel (such as canola) to the tallow biodiesel it will reduce the gel point. However, the reduction isn't linear. In other words, if the canola bio has a gel point of -9 and the tallow bio a gel point of 15C, the mid-point would be half of the 24 degrees between them - or 3C, but the effective gel point would more likely be around 5C.

As far as heating the oil, it looks like maybe one of those WVO conversion kits could be the go.

[Gunner Donating Member Find all posts View Profile Close Gunner]

Re: Problems using Tallow Fat in Cold Climates

Where is the vehicle overnight? In an enclosed garage? Under a carport? In the open in a driveway or on the street?
Depending where the vehicle is and it's exposure to the elements might have a bearing on how the engine/fuel cools overnight. Diesel engines are great big lumps of Iron and will retain heat long after alloy petrol engines have cooled. If you park the car in an enclosed garage, the engine heat will dissipate much slower than on the open street and it's possible that the fuel will retain enough heat to remain clear to start. It's certainly an excuse to extend the central heating to the garage.
I live in Lithgow (1000m alt), and below zero temps are commonplace from late Autumn to early Spring. I often see the Cruiser covered in frost except for the bonnet hours after driving it, and need to check the cat hasn't curled up in the warm engine bay for an overnight snooze!

[reg Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close reg]

Re: Problems using Tallow Fat in Cold Climates

Hi guys/gals
Do any of you actually know if the biodiesel you are running goes cloudy in the tank,if so does it just hit the filter and warm up then turning clear?
As i said i have not tried the bio yet but made up my first 20 litre batch yesterday.
Looks nice and clean and a final ph of 8.5.
I have picked up my 2 44 gal processors and i think i over ordered by 1 iwas going to wash the bio and make everything technical, then i woke up and thought why?
I figure i will mix the oil/methoxide in this allow to settle for about eight hours,
Drain into 20 litre plastic containers and allow to settle more.
The plastic containers allow me to see if there is any more reaction or glycerin seperating.
Just a point, doing my test .5 litre batches i heated oil to 50c added methoxide at 3.5g +3.5g titration per litre, 3.5g total.
Poured in the methoxide to oil stirred vigorously for about 20 seconds, did this about 4 times over 15 min then left the mix to do its stuff.
No extra heat no stirring, nothing.
It looks fine to me only 2 layers evident.
Can it really be this simple?
I then did the same for the 20 litres but 4lt methanol 140 g caustic soda.
Another note, i find a simple way to mix the methoxide is to get a 20 litre Plastic container with small screw on lid, not the big clip on mayonnaise drums
Shake swirl liquid every couple minutes and it mixes within about ten minutes.
There seem to be an awful lot of people on the various sites trying to make this process of biodiesel difficult.
I do not intend to wash the product as i do not see the point or the proof that it needs it.
My problem that i find it hard to get my head around is how do we know if it is right or wrong.
The people who have been making this stuff for a long time and thousands of litres ago just seem to keep it simple.
Apart from the scrubbing of the fuel lines resulting in blockages until it is nice and clean, does any one have any first hand evidence against the use of home made biodiesel that we should be looking for.

[reg Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close reg]

Re: Problems using Tallow Fat in Cold Climates

Where is the vehicle overnight? In an enclosed garage? Under a carport? In the open in a driveway or on the street?
Depending where the vehicle is and it's exposure to the elements might have a bearing on how the engine/fuel cools overnight. Diesel engines are great big lumps of Iron and will retain heat long after alloy petrol engines have cooled. If you park the car in an enclosed garage, the engine heat will dissipate much slower than on the open street and it's possible that the fuel will retain enough heat to remain clear to start. It's certainly an excuse to extend the central heating to the garage.
I live in Lithgow (1000m alt), and below zero temps are commonplace from late Autumn to early Spring. I often see the Cruiser covered in frost except for the bonnet hours after driving it, and need to check the cat hasn't curled up in the warm engine bay for an overnight snooze!

Hi gunner are you actually running tallow and if so do you find you have any problems with it?
what have you done to remedy them.
Thanks

[reg Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close reg]

Re: Problems using Tallow Fat in Cold Climates

Reg, In my experience the easiest thing to do is to add some petrol diesel, but it appears you don't want to do that. Kerosine is just number 1 diesel without the lubricant, so kero will work even better than #2 diesel. You already have heaps of lubricity in the biodiesel (only 2% biodiesel returns enough lubricity to the fuel).

You could also try adding used engine oil to the biodiesel to reduce the gel point.

If you add a vegetable biodiesel (such as canola) to the tallow biodiesel it will reduce the gel point. However, the reduction isn't linear. In other words, if the canola bio has a gel point of -9 and the tallow bio a gel point of 15C, the mid-point would be half of the 24 degrees between them - or 3C, but the effective gel point would more likely be around 5C.

As far as heating the oil, it looks like maybe one of those WVO conversion kits could be the go.

Thanks Terry i probably will mix the tallow with cotton seed 50/50 i then added 25% dino diesel this has given me a cloud point of about 10 degrees,
do you think this would be a problem running on this at cold temperatures
Does the filter block when the bio is cloudy or gelled or both, Thanks.
Like i said before it is my wifes car and i dont fancy it breaking down on her at night.

[reg Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close reg]

Re: Problems using Tallow Fat in Cold Climates

Thanks Terry i probably will mix the tallow with cotton seed 50/50 i then added 25% dino diesel this has given me a cloud point of about 10 degrees,
do you think this would be a problem running on this at cold temperatures
Does the filter block when the bio is cloudy or gelled or both, Thanks.
Like i said before it is my wifes car and i dont fancy it breaking down on her at night.

P.s
You mention adding used engine oil to bio diesel what do you have to do to the old oil before putting it in and will it cause smoke or damage to engine with prolonged use?

[Terry Syd Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Terry Syd]

Re: Problems using Tallow Fat in Cold Climates

Reg, yeah biodiesel is fairly easy to make - once you get your first batch made. It all seems like some sort of secret alchemical science and then when you see the first batch seperate its this kinda "wow, no big deal".

Allowing the unwashed to sit for another week is a good idea. A mate of mine is allegedly using a 'Mr. Funnel' to catch the last drops of glycerin that have dropped out. I haven't seen it being used, but if it works then this is another great idea for the homebrewer. A 'Mr. Funnel' has a teflon coated screen to catch the droplets. I know they work for water, but have no experience with biodiesel glycerin.

The used engine oil addition can be used in those engines that can take a bit more viscosity. On the infopop forum there was a thread where people were trying different techniques to clear the used oil of contaminants. Mixing up a batch of methoxide and WVO - and then adding, say another 20% of used engine oil - would result in some cases of the resulting biodiesel being clear and all the contaminants left in the glycerin. Others (such as me) could only get the particulates in the oil like grit and metal flakes to settle out, the remaining carbon stayed in the biodiesel. I expect it had to do with the type of motor oil being used. Some oil is extra long life and may have extra dispersants in the oil that somehow effected the biodiesel's ability to hold the carbon.

The used engine oil will reduce the gel point. It will also recycle the used oil into fuel. There is little to no extra exhaust smoke. The addition of the used engine oil in the biodiesel is probably assisted in burning by the extra oxygen in the biodiesel and the higher cetane. In the future of Peak Oil, this technique of creating a bit more fuel for your vehicle will likely become commonplace.

Regarding the gel point - the easiest way to see what your fuel is going to do is to set out a series of jars of the fuel. Take a jar of B100, then B90, B80...etc. Set the jars out in an area (like just outside the kitchen window?) in a line and watch what happens. If the B100 and B90 jar are gelled and the B80 is just cloudy - then you should add some buffer and perhaps use B50 until things warm up.

Using a garage to store the vehicle is a good idea. It keeps the vehicle a lot warmer. If you can get the engine running for the first 5 minutes, you will usually be alright for the day. Another technique is to keep the tank fairly full. When the engine is running, hot fuel is sent back to the tank from the
injector overflow. The more warm fuel in the tank, the more it will retain its heat overnight.

The fuel filter is usually where your first problems occur. The cold filter plug point is determined by the bits of gelled matter that is floating in the fuel. Once the filter is warm, then those bits will melt. However, if you have a cold enough night that the fuel gels in the line, be prepared to sit there for a while.

[Gunner Donating Member Find all posts View Profile Close Gunner]

Re: Problems using Tallow Fat in Cold Climates

Our local council uses a Kroll Heater to heat their workshop. They use waste engine and gearbox oil from the vehicles in the workshop to heat the large building it's located in, and the emissions are clean. They also collect used engine and gear oils from businesses and the public, resulting in a saving of heating costs of around $20,000 per year.
Where am I going with this? Well, Kroll don't make anything ideally suited to a small house garage or workshop (smallest unit heats up to 300sq m, 30 would be sufficient), but could a similar unit be built for home use? I know that the Glycerine by product is flammable, so could a small heating unit be possible that also uses our waste leftovers? Occaisional topping up with your oil change waste or a bit of BD could see you having a snug warm garage through the winter months and no problems starting up with gelled BD.

[hdj80 Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close hdj80]

Re: Problems using Tallow Fat in Cold Climates

I have been making bio from both wvo and fat and the last fat batch I noticed the sample jar to be slightly cloudy in the morning. I didn't take note of to temp but it would have been around 10degC. Then once it warmed up in the sun it was crystal clear.
Winter time in Canberra will be a issue and I am fortunate to have 2 fuel tanks in the 80. 1 will have dino (or B20) the other B100. Start and stop on dino/B20.
I am also looking at purchasing a Pusher Pump (Walbrow) and even make up a fuel line heat exchanger from copper tubing. Things to come.
Something that I thought that I might also do is have in the 80 (somewhere) a sample jar of the current fuel in the tanks, then after inspecting it I would have rough idea of the gel state the tank fuel is in.

[Fat Man Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Fat Man]

Re: Problems using Tallow Fat in Cold Climates

Our local council uses a Kroll Heater to heat their workshop. They use waste engine and gearbox oil from the vehicles in the workshop to heat the large building it's located in, and the emissions are clean. They also collect used engine and gear oils from businesses and the public, resulting in a saving of heating costs of around $20,000 per year.
Where am I going with this? Well, Kroll don't make anything ideally suited to a small house garage or workshop (smallest unit heats up to 300sq m, 30 would be sufficient), but could a similar unit be built for home use? I know that the Glycerine by product is flammable, so could a small heating unit be possible that also uses our waste leftovers? Occaisional topping up with your oil change waste or a bit of BD could see you having a snug warm garage through the winter months and no problems starting up with gelled BD.

Hi All

If anyone is interested I have plans for a small scale heater made from a 20 ltr drum and a jam tin (Yes seriously) this is the plans for a test burner to give you an idea of your size requirements, then you go ahead and make a heavy duty version, the plans are for a mobile and fixed system, Im busy at the moment but it's summer anyway so who needs it right now!!

If there's any interest i'll post up the plans in the next couple of weeks

Catch Ya All

Fat Man

[Guest Close David]

Re: Problems using Tallow Fat in Cold Climates

I would be very interested in seeing your plans Fat man.
People here may or may not be aware of the
'Mothers" drum heater which is designed to run on waste oil ( wvo, tranny fluid etc) and is supposedly a very good space heater.

I have built myself a WVO burner that puts out about 40 Heating Horsepower and am working on another one which should do between 60-80HP.
Although I designed these as burners to heat my swimming pool, the Backyard metal melting fraternity has taken a keen interest in them as well.
One feature of my design is a high turndown ratio which means they can run flat out to get up to heat fast and then be throttled right back for gentle sustained heat.

As a lot of people need to heat WVO for drying it or making Bio, my next project is going to be to make a burner that runs on wvo and fires upward so it can heat drums of liquid cheaply and without the need for gas or electricity. Having read up a bit on glyceryn, I see no reason why this burner couldn't digest that as well maybe with a bit of thinning with some WVO or a little bio.

[Fat Man Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Fat Man]

Re: Problems using Tallow Fat in Cold Climates

Hi David

Yes it's a surprisingly simple design, I was going to use it to heat WVO as well as heat the BBQ area on cold nights etc...

To use as a space heater I was going to put a 12 Volt Auto Radiator fan on the intake side and slow down the fan with a small regulater Circuit, the fan will help circulation in larger areas and sheds etc...

Just as an aside I was tossing up the idea of using a closed circuit solar hot water panel to heat the WVO as well, any thoughts ?? or experience with them at all ??

These projects will start up soon as soon as we finish moving in to the new house etc..you should see the shed, looks like a junk explosion has happened.

I was also wondering how you estimate the heating output...

The Fat Man