Smoke on start-up

[Chipmobile Biofuels Forum Newbie Find all posts View Profile Close Chipmobile]

Here goes my first post

I have been using Bio for 6 Months that i make myself.

Can any one tell me if their car blows a small amount of smoke (white) on start-up at below 15 degrees?

My oil titrates at 5.5 and run B100 Toyota Prado 2000

[Jasper Free from the Majors Find all posts View Profile Close Jasper]

Re: Smoke on start-up

Yes. We have been running home brew B100 in my wifes 2.8 turbo Delica for only a few days.
I documented the starting habits at different temps from mid winter through to now on PetroDiesel.(-7 to 14deg) The starting seems to be about the same (10 to 14 deg ) so far but there is definitely more white smoke at start up and it spluttered a bit more at 10deg. (2 or 3 seconds longer) On petroDiesel it would have a small puff of blackish smoke and idle smoother sooner.
I took it out the other day and gave it a hard push and there was no black smoke that I could see whereas on petroDiesel it would smoke a bit, just enough to notice it.

Cheers, Chris

[Chipmobile Biofuels Forum Newbie Find all posts View Profile Close Chipmobile]

Re: Smoke on start-up

Thats good i'll keep running as i have been, after all it is cheep? thanks for the info.

[Matt Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Matt]

Re: Smoke on start-up

Hi Chipmobile, I almost signed up with Chipboy as someone once named me, anyway your Toyota is most likely overfuelling a bit to get a solid start as does my landcruiser which lets out a GOOD cloud on starting, black on mineral diesel (not seen for 3 years thankfully) and a a grey / white on bio. It smokes whislt cold but once hot there is nothing to be seen. Your prado should be similar. If you cannot see anything noticeable then its good.

Matt

[Chipmobile Biofuels Forum Newbie Find all posts View Profile Close Chipmobile]

Re: Smoke on start-up

As i thought all rather normal but that was my only concern after putting in my first batch back in aprill (that was rather hard) happy with everything. thanks matt & chris

[hdj80 Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close hdj80]

Re: Smoke on start-up

Yes. We have been running home brew B100 in my wifes 2.8 turbo Delica for only a few days.
I documented the starting habits at different temps from mid winter through to now on PetroDiesel.(-7 to 14deg) The starting seems to be about the same (10 to 14 deg ) so far but there is definitely more white smoke at start up and it spluttered a bit more at 10deg. (2 or 3 seconds longer) On petroDiesel it would have a small puff of blackish smoke and idle smoother sooner.
I took it out the other day and gave it a hard push and there was no black smoke that I could see whereas on petroDiesel it would smoke a bit, just enough to notice it.

Cheers, Chris

Chris,
My 80 at startup smokes heaps of that white grey stuff to begin with (mind you less than on Dinodiesel and it is black) but as Matt said once she heats up virtually all smoke disappears.
As far as the spluttering? well I have not experienced that but they are 2 quite different engines. Yours may benefit a low pressure pusher pump.

[Jasper Free from the Majors Find all posts View Profile Close Jasper]

Re: Smoke on start-up

As far as the spluttering? well I have not experienced that but they are 2 quite different engines. Yours may benefit a low pressure pusher pump.

The use of the word "spluttering" may be a bit harsh. When I start it I give it a small rev as it fires then back off as soon as I can so it can just idle. The spluttering is a few small misses for the first 3 - 4 seconds. It does the same with Diesel but at lower temperatures and the lower the temp, the longer the missing. The smoke seems related to the miss as if it's not burning the fuel properly hence the smoke. Duh! (a bit like a flooded petrol engine) When on Diesel at a 14deg cold start, I just reach in and turn the key and away it goes. It wont do that on Bio.

Is it the fact that the fuel is more viscous at lower temps that it takes a bit to get going? Maybe the extra pump might help by giving it pressure? Or is Bio not as combustable? The glow plug light goes out in around 1 second and I hear the relay click. I have tried waiting longer but that doesn't seem to help???
Any one have the answers to these questions?

Other than this minor difference and the slight drop in power....
IT ALL GOOD! We are both really happy that we got this far with no dramas to speak of. We have had a few skeptics keeping an eye on what we have been doing, waiting for the news report of an explosion as "Back yard fuel brewer blows himself up!" (thanks chaser boys) I am waiting for the day when we cold start the car and one of these people sees and says "So whats with all the smoke then?"

It would be nice to get that bit better.

Cheers, Chris

[Chris Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Chris]

Re: Smoke on start-up

Hi All
My two bits worth
Diesel engines by their nature will always blow a bit of unburned fuel on start up which shows up as smoke
It is usually caused by the fact that a bit of the fuel sitting in the fuel injectors is not atomised at the slow start up speed therefore lower pressure therefore the puff of smoke
The preheat glow plugs add their bit as well
They are red hot when the relay clicks them off, so a bit of fuel does get to them and it is "cooked" rather then burned
In older engines where there is no relay and you have to use the pre heater by guesswork or by a resistor that glows in the panel the smoke will persist a bit longer as it takes a bit more time to bring the temperature of the glow plugs down
Just like burning the oil in a frying pan when we cook and we set the smoke alarm off (good test for the batteries)
On another point;
Biodiesel burns a bit faster than dino diesel, ideally the engine's fuel injector pump should be re-timed so as to inject biodiesel a bit later than it does dino fuel
This will not get rid of the black smoke but it will improve performance as well as fuel economy a bit, that is for B100
However the benefit will be the reverse once you revert back to dino
If one wants to do it you can find a happy medium by trial and error a half way point somewhere between
If you fuel injector pump is easily accessible have a look where it is bolted to see if there are slots on the mounting face If there are mark the spot with a centre punch loosen the nuts just enough and twist the pump a couple of mm so it injects a bit later nip the nuts and take it for a drive
You can play around a bit like this until you keep getting improvement
There will be a point where performance will start to detiorate so back off to the previous point
Center punch the spot that gives you best performance on biodiesel you already have the mark where it was before you started for dino
You can then choose a half way point as a compromise between bio or dino fuel or leave it where you got the best out of bio
I am posting this up for mechanically minded folk that are reasonable with tools and want to get a better result from biodiesel
I have done it on a mazda 4 tonne truck as well as a mitsubishi 6d14 and it works but it took more than half a day or so for the mazda and a couple for the "not so squeezee"
I have not done it on a passenger vehicle but I see no reason that it should be or it would be any different diesel engines are just that
I have no experience with common rail injection systems
There are some post's on the subject but the above works

[Guest Close David]

Re: Smoke on start-up

I know nothing about timing a diesel but are they at all like a car where there is a specific timing setting of so many degrees BTDC and either marks for the pump or a timing wheel available?

If there is a set timing point, someone must have worked out by now what the optimum timing modification is for bd or at least a dam close starting point.

Is it as easy to ajust the amount of fuel delivered as it is the timing?

[Chris Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Chris]

Re: Smoke on start-up

David
You are quite right there is a timing mark as well as a bit of movement on the fuel injector pump for fine adjustment
Diesel engines either run or they dont the fine adjustment is within the run don't run gap
There is really very little one can do to diesel engines in so far as fuel adjustments are concerned unlike a petrol engine where you can have a bit of a go
The fuel injector guys have all the gear as well as the know how to do it but they also know how to charge
The fuel delivery volume is set by the manufacturer or the diesel service guys when you get the fuel injector pump serviced and yes it is adjustable but you need spesialised gear to do it which they have
We had a fleet of 75 CFM diesel driven air compressors with a 3 cylinder perkins motor the average cost of diesel injector pump service for those was about $1200 which included a rebuilt kit worth about $120
Having said all that keep in mind that the fuel we make also has a lot to do with how the engine will perform and that can vary be from batch to batch
So it is all a bit academic really for home brew biodiesel
In posting the prior I assumed biodiesel to the ASTM or an EN standard which is something that may or may not be achieved by the average home biodiesel producer and if does or it does not he will never know any way
A bit of methanol remaining in the biodiesel will certainly negate any adjustments
As well as that a bit of extra glycerin which is not uncommon will do the same and worse
Any way it is there for information as well as for any one that wants to have a crack at it themselves

[Robert Administrator Find all posts View Profile Close Robert]

Re: Smoke on start-up

I'm no expert on diesel engines, but glow plugs might be worth considering if you were having difficulties on cold starts. Try glowing them twice (wait for the relay to click off, then try a second time). Not sure if that would have any benefit, but maybe worth a try. Also, have a look at this thread. A cold start problem was fixed by glow plugs.

[fiwood2006 Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close fiwood2006]

Re: Smoke on start-up

i do agree with robert , your smoke at start up would be un burnt fuel from not enough heat,check your glow plugs, in toyotas the tip of the glow plug should smoke and then glow when hooked up to a battery,take them out one at a time and put a bit of insulated wire on the top and put the body of the glow on the negative and the wire on the positive the plug should smoke then glow at the tip,if it glows in the middle and not at the tip i would replace it .if you have one not working it will make the engine smoke at start up, the more not working properly the worse it will smoke. if it starts when warm with no prob i would check the glow plugs for sure. hope this helps
jeff

[dagwill Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close dagwill]

Re: Smoke on start-up

hi all ,one of the neighbours knows when i start up,depends which way the wind is blowing who gets the cloud.Ive done a couple of years on home brew and another couple on SVO My hj60 landcruiser has now done around 500K, IP never touched So as problems arise in the future i wont know if its all this free fuel and modifications or it would have happend anyway on Dino. Back to start ups summer is fine but last winter got progressivly harder to start.It would fire up 1/4 sec. or so and stop, repeatedly, somtimes it would do a rythmical surging dance for a while then stop Finally i added an overide button to the glowplugs.[dont use an on off switch] . As the glow plug lightgoes out i simultaneously hit the button with my left hand and the starter with my right. Works a treat to left of stearing columb is my overide button and below a switch for soleniods,2 tank syst.Its 3 position switch [in cent. pos. all solenoids are off, a theft deterent] In the other photo[if my computer skills are improving] the black wire cent. screen goes to glow plug bridging strap.As theres a heafty cuurent involved a realay set up would be an improvement

[Jasper Free from the Majors Find all posts View Profile Close Jasper]

Re: Smoke on start-up

Hi all,
Yep, looks like glow plugs. This morning was 8 deg c and I did the glow plugs twice trick then turned the key. With out any pedal it fired, 2 or 3 little chugs and went to smooth idle with very little smoke. (well compared to previous mornings) Of course this is not a definite diagnosis but looks promising. Ill play with this over the next few weeks and update this thread accordingly.
Cheers, Chris

PS. Took the bus out for its first run interstate on B100 over the week end (Canberra - Cooma and back) and it goes tops. I dont think it has lost any power at all. However, it has lost all its black smoke.

[Chipmobile Biofuels Forum Newbie Find all posts View Profile Close Chipmobile]

Re: Smoke on start-up

Dagwill

That sounds like something i need.
do you know if it will shorten the life of the glow plugs?

Regards
Robert