Anyone using injector line heaters?

[Urvey Member Find all posts View Profile Close Urvey]

Anyone using injector line heaters? If so, how are they treating you and where did you get them from? Can they overheat the oil in summer conditions?

[tbird650 Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close tbird650]

Re: Anyone using injector line heaters?

I run a 100watt heater on a 2.4litre Hiace. Made them myself....here's how: Get some nichrome wire and measure the length it takes to draw 4amps current. Thats enough for 2 injector lines, running down one and up another ......terminate it to earth on the injector line itself. Feed through a relay switchable via ignition key. So it can only ever be on when the key is on. Insulation you will get using ceramic beads obtainable from cheap jewellery/ necklace, etc. Test on the stove to make sure they're not plastic first! The beads I used are about 3mm diameter with a hole just big enough to pass the nichrome. It takes 20 -30 minites or so to get that many beads on the length of nichrome! Mine was about 400mm long and I had to have 2 of those because mine's a 4 cylinder.
Next step is to silicon the beaded wire to the injector lines using heat resistant red silicon. Smear it all over and around the pipes. Finally, once dried, tape with that silver heat insulation tape that a plumbers use.
So all up I was drawing 8 amps (or 2 amps per cylinder). I also added a fuse to the circuit.
I doubt mine gets too hot, in fact I think it may not be hot enough. I plan to test the heat of the fuel injector line itself with a thermocouple. I'll post post back with results soon.
Note: this give steps for 2amps per cylinder current draw. If that's not enough heat, the wire length could be shortened to give more current draw and subsequently nore heat.
I hope all is clear.....let me know.

[Urvey Member Find all posts View Profile Close Urvey]

Re: Anyone using injector line heaters?

Thanks for the reply Tbird.

Your post was very useful and they seem quite cheap to make.

I'll be interested to see your thermocouple results

[tbird650 Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close tbird650]

Re: Anyone using injector line heaters?

Ok, I repositioned my thermocouple onto no.1 injector line and taped it over with some aluminium tape.
Results were, temps up to 88c were recorded. I am thinking that air temperature has a marked impact on temp as has idling. A few minutes idling saw the highest temps.
I think I paid around $30 for thermocouple from Jaycar as part of a multimeter.....just brilliant!!
In hindsight it looks as though I am not getting up to temp quickly enough. It takes 15km+ to get anywhere near 70 -80c, but also dependant on speed. The faster I drive, the more fuel passes through, taking the heat with it.

[Vegiecars Member Find all posts View Profile Close Vegiecars]

Re: Anyone using injector line heaters?

Hi Urvey,
We market a (patent pending) heater kit made by us here in Australia. The system is thermostatically operated to turn off at 90deg and back on at 75, so it won't overheat, and draws a current of 8amps for a 4 cyl up to 16 amps for a 6 cyl. The elements heat up rapidly and then turn on and off intermittently.

The elements are fully electrically insulated, highly flexible and easy to install. The kit comes with a high temperature and chemical resistant self bonding thermal insulative tube, to further reduce the current necessary to keep the lines warm.

Used in conjunction with an auxiliary battery, we market this kit as a "Cold Start Kit", as it heats the fuel lines rapidly allowing you to get the vehicle started if you have forgotten to purge. It comes with a dash mountable digital thermometer and probe so that you can monitor the temperature inside the heater assembly.

I have been using this system as a single tank system for months now without issue.

Our kit includes:
Flexible heating elements,
Digital Thermometer and probe
High Temperature Insulative Tube
Thermostat
Relay
Switch
All wiring pre wired to looms for easy installation
All connectors (and spares) etc.
Colour Installation Booklet

You only have to supply a pair of pliers and a pair of sharp scissors for installation!

The kits range in price from $250 to $300 depending on the vehicle.

I'm happy to send a PDF version of the installation booklet to you if you email me directly marcus@vegiecars.com
Let me know if you would like any further information.

Regards
Marcus

[tbird650 Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close tbird650]

Re: Anyone using injector line heaters?

Ok, I have now put the thermocouple probe onto various points of the fuel system. What I can say is that my fuel enters the filter at 60 - 65c. It's looking like I need more added heat for cold ambient temperatures. On hot days it will reach 80c @ the injector nozzles though may take a few kilometres. And will go above that if left to idle.

[wvodasher Biofuels Forum Newbie Find all posts View Profile Close wvodasher]

Re: Anyone using injector line heaters?

I have injector line heaters on my vw dasher, they are 80 watts and heat up the injector lines to about 80-90 degrees c in 2 minutes. I have the injector line heaters switched with a toggle switch so I can turn them off once the car is running smoothly. Althought the place where I purchased my injector line heaters says to they can be run all the time. Since I am running a single tank conversion I thought it best that I could turn off and on the heater, I also run a 12 volt electric fuel filter heater 100 watts, and a 80 watt tank heater when needed so far I haven't needed to run the tank heater but the fuel filter heater is on all the time.
I too became concerned about overheating the fuel, I just did what I could to prevent it. it is fall here so the weather is getting cooler, time will tell if my system will make it through the winter.
The place where I got my injector line heaters nolonger is in bussiness but the site is still up. fattywagons.com You can check out how they construsted their injector line heaters and how they recommended you install them.
Mark

[Vegiecars Member Find all posts View Profile Close Vegiecars]

Re: Anyone using injector line heaters?

I installed a Fattywagons system sometime ago, and found it extremely tedious and difficult to install. The sleeve that they have put the wire in thermally insulates it from the injector line, so it takes a long time for the heat to get through, and once it had been on for a while, was reaching temperatures of over 180 Deg C overheating the line which could lead to cracking.

The system came without insulation, so most of the heat was lost and they didn't even recommend insulation - mind you at 180 deg c it would have been difficult to insulate.

Regards
Marcus
vegiecars.com

[wvodasher Biofuels Forum Newbie Find all posts View Profile Close wvodasher]

Re: Anyone using injector line heaters?

I have not found that it takes a long to to heat the injector lines. I am concerned about it overheating the lines part of the reason I put a toggle switch in to control it.
As for the intstallion process that fattywagons says to use yes it is time comsuming and if you mess up with the silicone tape there is not enough to start over. I know I messed up had to buy more silicone tape.
The silicone tape is the secret to keeping the heat in it is an excellant insulator.
I agree with you that there is need to be concerned if the temps get up as high as you are saying the do. I believe you want to keep the temp of the vegetable oil at 148 c especially if you mix diesel with the vegetable oil.
Your setup sounds alot more complex and is probably a more thoughly tested concept.
Check out my web site you if you have a chance.
The 148c should be 150 c
Mark

[Urvey Member Find all posts View Profile Close Urvey]

Re: Anyone using injector line heaters?

I found a very informative thread on the frybrid forum a while back where there was some debate over the maximum temperature VO could be pre injectors. From my understanding (I'm new to this whole thing) VO is best at 70*C going into the IP for viscosity reasons but best going into the injectors at around 150*C for atomization reasons.

Quote: "the acrevo study does recommend 302F for canolla oil for it to atomize similar to petro"

Injection Line Heaters, II - Forums

This is also a link to the summary of that thread (the thread is dam long)

There also seems to be some debate in the thread whether heating the oil to around 200*C in the injector lines is really a problem.


Vegycars, you mention an auxiliary battery, do most people that use injector line heaters and a 12V line heater use a second battery?

[bruceT Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close bruceT]

Re: Anyone using injector line heaters?

If I were to heat my fuel lines, I think I would use thermal transfer tape to wrap the fuel lines. Then I would wrap the required length of nichrome wire around this and finish with self amagamating silicone tape or silicon spray tape in a can. The thermal transfer tape would not only conduct heat but also electrically insulate the nichrome wire from the metal fuel lines.

I would also incorporate a relay and control the temp with a thermostat (90/75degC available from Jaycar for around $4). Make sure to power it from a circuit that is only on when the ignition is on and the veg circuit is on. This is most important!

As far as calculating the correct length of nichrome wire, you need to know the what the resistance of the wire is per metre. Use Ohms Law. There is a calculator here: The Electronics Calculator Website

Very roughly, if you were using nichrome wire of R13.77 Ohm/m, then to achieve heating of 160w from a 12V source, you need to use 16metres. You will need electrical wire of at least 15 amp rating, preferable more, and a 15 amp fuse on the circuit.

[Vegiecars Member Find all posts View Profile Close Vegiecars]

Re: Anyone using injector line heaters?

Hi Urvey,
a second battery is necessary if you intend to be using the heating system as a no purge system. The electrical system on my 4wd draws an average of 20amps for 2 minutes before start on a cold day. This would significantly drain many batteries, not leaving enough grunt to turn the engine over.

I am familiar with a report on operating the oil at 150deg C, the issue I have is that the existing fuel lines are not manufactured for such extremes and, such rapid heating (and cooling) could lead (and has with some) to the fuel lines cracking.

Running the oil through at about 80 deg seems to have been working well for many people for years.

Regards
Marcus
vegiecars.com

[Urvey Member Find all posts View Profile Close Urvey]

Re: Anyone using injector line heaters?

Could I bump up the exiting fuel line to something more heat resistant easily?

As I have a more fragile DI diesel I'm very interested in anything that will help the atomization of fuel to avoid problems down the track.

[Tony From West Oz Vice Chairperson of WARFA Find all posts View Profile Close Tony From West Oz]

Re: Anyone using injector line heaters?

Could I bump up the exiting fuel line to something more heat resistant easily?

As I have a more fragile DI diesel I'm very interested in anything that will help the atomization of fuel to avoid problems down the track.

I doubt that you wil find anything more suitable than the injector lines provided with the engine. If you were to have new injector lines made up, remember to have them all made to the exact same length, to ensure that ignition timing is the same for each cylinder.

With your DI engine, DO NOT use a single tank setup as this will allow cold veggie oil into the injectors (Yes, even with injector line heaters) and the resulting poor spray pattern may allow veggie oil to contact the cylinder walls. Vegetable oil on the cylinder walls will end up on the rings, causing ring land coking and subsequent excessive cylinder wear.
I believe that DI diesels are only suited to 2 tank conversions.

Tony

[Vegiecars Member Find all posts View Profile Close Vegiecars]

Re: Anyone using injector line heaters?

I was using their product for a couple of months before developing our fuel line heater product. I didn't notice any increase in performance with the (much) higher temperatures.

While I'm sure that the oil would atomise better at the higher temperatures, I don't know about retrofitting an existing vehicle to achieve these temperatures. Blending of diesel fuel will also improve atomisation at far lower temperatures.

The thermal mass of the injector itself would have some cooling effect on the fuel, and it would be necessary to heat the fuel lines to greater than 150c to achieve the desired fuel temperature. This would place considerable pressure on the structure of the line that was not constructed for this purpose.

For people who are using the fuel line injector heaters as a cold start system, it is necessary to add an additional battery. The line heaters in my 6cyl 4wd draw about 14amps and the fuel heater before the IP draws 16amp. The system draws an average of 24 amp for up to a couple of minutes before starting, especially in cold weather.

I suggest to people using a cold start system that they have a second battery installed, preferably isolated, so that the heating system can draw of the auxiliary battery, and the main battery is left fully charged for cranking.


Regards
Marcus