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AusKiwi
2nd May 2018, 12:26 PM
I am a complete novice to the whole BioFuel scene, so am fully prepared to be shot down on this question, but has anyone tried blending a small amount (say 5 -10%) of filtered frying oil with regular diesel as an additive of sorts. I've heard of olive oil being used as an additive commercially, but is it possible to take it to the next level and blend diesel with vegetable oil? I'm fully aware of the risks of gumming up the injectors etc, but figured that if the percentage was kept relatively low, and a thinning agent used, it might burn off OK with minimal residue. Obviously the savings would be relatively small, but if I am getting the oil for free, it would represent a 5-10% discount on my fuel costs. Any comments?

tillyfromparadise
2nd May 2018, 01:26 PM
Hi AusKiwi,

Blending is an accepted method of using Veg oil but it does depend on which engine you will use it in and the type of fuel injection installed on the engine.
Typically people will use something around 90%- 95% filtered veg oil blended/ mixed with 5%-10% petrol as a fuel.

This summer I was running on a blend of 1/3 veg oil and 2/3 biodiesel.
In the winter I go back to 100% biodiesel.

Tony From West Oz
2nd May 2018, 11:10 PM
AusKiwi,
Welcome to the forum.
Mostly we are a friendly bunch who love to help others, but don't take offence if someone posts something which may offend. This is Australia after all. :)

I am a complete novice to the whole BioFuel scene, so am fully prepared to be shot down on this question, but has anyone tried blending a small amount (say 5 -10%) of filtered frying oil with regular diesel as an additive of sorts. I've heard of olive oil being used as an additive commercially, but is it possible to take it to the next level and blend diesel with vegetable oil? I'm fully aware of the risks of gumming up the injectors etc, but figured that if the percentage was kept relatively low, and a thinning agent used, it might burn off OK with minimal residue. Obviously the savings would be relatively small, but if I am getting the oil for free, it would represent a 5-10% discount on my fuel costs. Any comments?

Q1. What vehicle are you planning to use this fuel in? Search our Vehicles using vegetable oil fuel in this forum, others may already be using the same vehicle.
Q2. If post 2000, it most likely has a Common Rail Diesel engine. While it is possible to use vegetable oil fuels in a CRD engine, there is not much experience of this being done in Australia, so I would not recommend it unless you are able to diagnose fuel related issues on these engines.
Q3. If pre-2000, does it have an direct injected or indirect injected engine? Indirect injection engines are more tolerant of vegetable oil fuel than Direct injection engines. Direct Injected engines should start and stop on diesel to prevent issues with blocked injector nozzles (due to vegetable oil drying in the injector).

AusKiwi
3rd May 2018, 10:10 AM
The car I drive is a 2003 Citroen C5 2.0 HDi. It is a common rail engine but doesn't have a DPF. I wouldn't want to run 100% vegetable oil in it for sure, but was thinking there might be a blend of 5-10% that would work. I have read of other Peugeot HDi owners (same engine) running vege oil in their vehicles. But all this is hypothetical right now. I messaged my local fish and chip shop yesterday and he told me his oil was recycled under contract so he couldn't help me. I have a feeling all the supplies of free oil have dried up now.

I also found this document which suggested that a 1:8 blend is a good percentage (12.5%) https://genesisnow.com.au/Idea004.pdf

tillyfromparadise
3rd May 2018, 02:58 PM
Hi AusKiwi,


The car I drive is a 2003 Citroen C5 2.0 HDi.
I also found this document which suggested that a 1:8 blend is a good percentage (12.5%) https://genesisnow.com.au/Idea004.pdfI read the site you linked to and did not see any mention of the 2003 PSA 2.0 HDi diesel engine that is in your car.

Direct injection engines are a bit of an unknown quantity with regards to what alternative fuels will or will not work in them.
The manufacturers will ALWAYS tell you that you can not use any percentage of veg oil and warn of the dire consequences if you do use them.
Most people, being mindful of the dire warnings from the manufacturers and having spent a lot of money purchasing their car, are reluctant to experiment.

Unless you can locate someone who has actually done the testing on a car with your engine and has posted the results, the only option is for you to have a go and see what happens.
If you do please let us know the results.

Tony From West Oz
4th May 2018, 02:04 AM
I also found this document which suggested that a 1:8 blend is a good percentage (12.5%) https://genesisnow.com.au/Idea004.pdf
That document has a significant error that keeps being repeated by most people who promote the use of vegetable oil fuels.

Rudolph Diesel did NOT design the engine to use vegetable oils!
At the 1900 Paris Exhibition, he noted that a group sponsored by the French government was running the engine on Peanut oil and was very supportive of them.
I have a copy of a foreword that he wrote, for a book titled 'Diesel Engines for Land and Marine Work', detailing the above. I have a copy of that foreword (not the book though :( )
I have tried to upload the images, but could not. Here is a copy of the relevant text in the foreword:

But it is not yet generally known that it is possible to use animal and vegetable oils direct in Diesel motors. In 1900 a small Diesel engine was exhibited at the Paris exhibition by the Otto Company which, on the suggestion of the French Government, was run on Arachide oil, and operated so well that very few people were aware of the fact. The motor was built for ordinary oils, and without any modification was run on vegetable oil. I have recently repeated these experiments on a large scale with full success and entire confirmation of the results formerly obtained. The French Government had in mind the utilization of the large quantities of arachide or ground nuts available in the African colonies and easy to cultivate, for, by this means, the colonies can be provided with power and industries, without the necessity of importing coal or liquid fuel.
Similar experiments have also been made in St, Petersburg with castor oil, have been tried with perfect success.
If at present the applicability of vegetable and animal oils to Diesel motors seems insignificant, it may develop in the course of time to reach an importance equal to that of natural liquid fuels and tar oil. Twelve years ago we were no more advanced with the tar oils than to-day is the case with the vegetable oils; and how important have they now become!
We cannot predict at present the role which these oils will have to play in the colonies in days to come. However, they give the certainty that motive power can be produced by the agricultural transformation of the heat of the sun, even when our total natural store of solid and liquid fuel will be exhausted.

I have the foreword scanned pages in a Zip file. If anyone wants a copy, please message me - requesting a copy and providing your email address.

Tony From West Oz
4th May 2018, 02:18 AM
Here is a link to a scan of the Book:
https://archive.org/stream/dieselenginesfo00diesgoog#page/n18/mode/2up

The foreword starts on page 20/303

Sorry for hijacking this thread but I get a bit anal about this topic when people repeat incorrect information as per the linked website information.

AusKiwi
4th May 2018, 09:50 PM
Hi AusKiwi,

I read the site you linked to and did not see any mention of the 2003 PSA 2.0 HDi diesel engine that is in your car.

No, it was just the general principle of blending diesel with vege oil that I was referring to, and the ratio that they came up with.
My intention is to start with a very small percentage such as 1% and keep increasing it up to the 12.5% level if there are no problems.

Direct injection engines are a bit of an unknown quantity with regards to what alternative fuels will or will not work in them.
The manufacturers will ALWAYS tell you that you can not use any percentage of veg oil and warn of the dire consequences if you do use them.
Most people, being mindful of the dire warnings from the manufacturers and having spent a lot of money purchasing their car, are reluctant to experiment.

Unless you can locate someone who has actually done the testing on a car with your engine and has posted the results, the only option is for you to have a go and see what happens.
If you do please let us know the results.

I found a few sites relating to the Peugeot HDi engine running on vege oil blend, below is one of them:
(the advice seems to be mixed, but there are definitely people out there who say they have done it, and in higher concentrations than I am planning)

http://www.peugeotforums.com/forums/206-35/veggie-oil-mix-72249/

The only thing holding me back right now is finding a free or cheap local source of oil. The cheapest vegetable oil in the supermarket is currently $2.20/litre. I am sure it must be possible to buy used oil for less than that. I had a reply from one fish and chip shop owner who was helpful but told me he used lard so I had to tell him that would not work. I hate to think what a mess that would make of my injectors. It seems this whole industry has turned into a cartel where the big players have got all the restaurants signed into contracts and there is no way of accessing waste oil any more. I contacted one recycler asking if he could supply me and he told me they only sell to "licensed recycling companies under EPA Guidelines." I felt like replying to say I wasn't thinking of setting up a recycling plant, just pouring the oil in my fuel tank. I'd probably be pushing water uphill with them though. Another company advertises that the smallest container size they sell is 205 litre steel drums. To be honest, if I could just buy 2 litre bottles and throw them in the recycling when I'm done, that would suit me just fine. It's just the pricing that's the issue. $4.40 from Woollies, no. A dollar or less, that would be worth doing. But of course, that's probably unrealistic.Unless someone on the Gold Coast has "oil coming out of their ears". I'd be round there in a flash offering hard cash for their liquid gold. If somebody reading this is that person, please reply and make my day...

Harvey
9th May 2018, 12:38 PM
The only thing holding me back right now is finding a free or cheap local source of oil. The cheapest vegetable oil in the supermarket is currently $2.20/litre. I am sure it must be possible to buy used oil for less than that. I had a reply from one fish and chip shop

Hi Auskiwi
Paying anything for oil is against my ideal of alternative fuels. I am lucky enough to drive a car that runs on 100% waste vege oil (WVO) with no modification other than dewatering and filtering. I ensure I collect WVO that has very little fat and therefore remains liquid, which is easier to achieve here in Queensland than southern states at this time of year. So avoid the likes of fish n chip shops etc that also cook a lot of fatty animal meats such as hamburgers. I get some really nice clean and liquid oils from a sushi restaurant. Some Thai restaurants are also good.
I established a relationship with a restaurant where I call in, provide an empty 25 or 20 litre container and take away the full/partly full one. By providing a dependable service that saves them carrying waste oil out the back of the shopping centre it is a win-win.
Hope this helps.
Regards Harvey

AusKiwi
9th May 2018, 06:36 PM
Thanks for your comment Harvey. Unfortunately I have a common rail diesel so can't run 100% WVO but would like to try maybe up to 10% with other additives to ensure clean burning. What is the best kind of container in your experience? Does it have to be an open pail or can it be a container with a neck? I have a couple of old 10L oil bottles and wondered if the restaurants could fill that assuming they have some kind of drain tap on their fryer.

Harvey
9th May 2018, 09:30 PM
Thanks for your comment Harvey. Unfortunately I have a common rail diesel so can't run 100% WVO but would like to try maybe up to 10% with other additives to ensure clean burning. What is the best kind of container in your experience? Does it have to be an open pail or can it be a container with a neck? I have a couple of old 10L oil bottles and wondered if the restaurants could fill that assuming they have some kind of drain tap on their fryer.

Mate, 20 litre plastic containers which are opaque which they probably buy their dishwasher detergent in. This enables you both to easily see the fluid level in them preventing spills.

Tony From West Oz
9th May 2018, 11:59 PM
I also use the 20L chemical drums for storing filtered oil, ready for use.
My supplier returns the used oil to the 20L steel drums it came in.

AusKiwi
11th June 2018, 01:23 AM
I am happy to report that I did finally find a local supply of used cooking oil (thanks to Ray of QLD Waste Oils in Molendinar who was generous enough to let me have a 20 litre container of used canola oil, I think it is). So for the last couple of weeks I have been filtering this oil into a 3L bottle and slowly decanting it into the tank a bit at a time. I am now up to about 3-4% (not being over-accurate about it) and the engine is still running fine, if anything a little smoother than usual due to the extra lubricity. I am still adding my usual Pro-Ma DT5 additive, and also 2-stroke oil at 1:200. I will try going up to 5% on the next fill. Will report back later and let you all know how it's all going.

tillyfromparadise
11th June 2018, 11:36 PM
Hi AusKiwi


...and the engine is still running fine, if anything a little smoother than usual due to the extra lubricity.Lubricity of the fuel is only beneficial to the well-being of an injector pump that uses the fuel as a lubricant. Diesel fuel in Australia already has the required lubricity.

Your perceived smoother running is probably due to the placebo affect

smithy
13th June 2018, 06:54 AM
Your perceived smoother running is probably due to the placebo affect

And probably Not! Years ago When I flew model aerobatics I used supercharged Yamada Four stroke engines. Power was in plenty using fuel with 20% nitromethane. Bonus points were awarded if the noise output was quieter than average. We would over-oil the fuel to make the engines run smoother.

tillyfromparadise
13th June 2018, 11:09 AM
Hi smithy,


And probably Not! Years ago When I flew model aerobatics I used supercharged Yamada Four stroke engines. Power was in plenty using fuel with 20% nitromethane. Bonus points were awarded if the noise output was quieter than average. We would over-oil the fuel to make the engines run smoother.Wrong againhttp://biodiesel.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
You do not understand the difference between a 4 stroke model glow plug engine that mixes oil with the fuel to lubricate the engine and a 4 stroke automotive diesel engine which keeps the lubricating oil separate from the fuel.

Model 4 stroke engines require their lubricating oil to be mixed with the fuel to provide lubrication for the engine.
4 stroke automotive diesels do not use their fuel to lubricate the engines. 4 stroke automotive diesels have lubricating oil separate from their fuel and ideally the two never come together.
The only part of the engine the WVO you use as a fuel sees is the fueling system. The WVO burns immediately it is injected into the cylinder and plays no part in lubricating your diesel engine

PS-Quieter noise output is not the same thing as smoother running http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Alga
13th June 2018, 04:14 PM
And probably Not! Years ago When I flew model aerobatics I used supercharged Yamada Four stroke engines. Power was in plenty using fuel with 20% nitromethane. Bonus points were awarded if the noise output was quieter than average. We would over-oil the fuel to make the engines run smoother.

You're right Smithy, adding BD or vo increases the lubricity and makes engines run smoother. There have been many studies which support this, ultra low sulphur diesel, doesn't have the lubricity to stop wear in many parts of the fuel system and engine, rather it wears them out with the friction it creates. Rotary pumps suffer the most as the fuel lubricates the Ip, I notice the difference when running my series 80 on dino, compared to vo. Others have commented on how smooth and quiet the engine runs, when on VO/BD, compared to using dino.

There are many recommendations in Europe to buy bd blended dino for better lubricity and longer engine component life, recommended by experts. here are just a couple of scientific articles on the subject.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1876610215013879

http://jatonkam35s.com/DeuceTechnicalManuals/Diesel_fuel_additive_test.pdf

tillyfromparadise
13th June 2018, 04:53 PM
Hi Alga,


You're right Smithy, adding BD or vo increases the lubricity and makes engines run smoother. You are wrong when you said "ultra low sulphur diesel, doesn't have the lubricity to stop wear in many parts"
Fuel lubricity has not been a concern in Australia since 2002 (before you started using biodiesel or WVO) when they added a lubricity requirement to the Diesel Fuel standard to insure there was no lubricity problem with diesel fuel.

The biodiesel or WVO does not come into contact with any part of your engine except the fueling system.
That includes the lift pump, the Injector pump and the injectors
There are no studies I am aware of that supports the idea that the increased lubricity of biodiesel or WVO makes your engine run smoother.

Both studies you linked to is concerning adding BIODIESEL (not WVO) as a lubricant to the fuel in place of the chemicals currently being used.
Neither study you linked to claims engines run smoother because of the increased lubricity of biodiesel.

If your engine is running better on WVO it is not because of the lubricity of the WVO.

Tony From West Oz
14th June 2018, 01:06 AM
Additionally, this vehicle is a Common Rail Diesel which does not have an injector pump, it has a high pressure pump to provide the high pressures in the "common rail". The injectors are piezo injectors, totally different to the older (rebuildable and adjustable (using shims)) injectors.
Adding veggie oil to the fuel would not have any beneficial effect (as the fuel already has lubricity additives in it) other than a cost saving and may possibly cause issues with the seals in the high pressure pump.

Alga
14th June 2018, 03:40 PM
Tony, I have a 671gm common rail, it runs much smoother and quieter in vo. Agree the fuel mostly comes into contact with the fuel system, but as on all engines, there is a certain time in the cylinders where it does add to lubricity, before combusting. It can be claimed as a placebo effect, but it is noticeable, especially when you drive long distances in big rigs, as the engines purr along, compared to dino. There is a noticeable difference when switching over between the two fuels, I put it down to the lubricity of the vo, compared to the almost non existent lubricity of dino. With the Gm, there is a distinct difference in sound and operation, which has been commented on by other large boat owners. A close Cray fisherman friend, says he always knows when I switch fuel because the engine pitch changes. As you may know, GMs tend to scream, hence the name screaming jimmies. Yet when on VO, mine hums along with a distinct drop in decibels. Have no scientific explanation for this and didn't take much notice until it was pointed out to me, you notice it more on deck than in the engine room, or wheelhouse.

It's also noticeable that very few discuss much on this forum any more, because of the deranged psychopath constantly abusing and insulting others. They add nothing to the discussion, other than abuse and more than likely, have little real hands on experience, other than on one or two car engines around the suburbs.

tillyfromparadise
14th June 2018, 05:11 PM
Hi alga,
Again, you are making wild guesses as to why your engine APPARENTLY runs smoother when using WVO.
Making wild guesses and then stating them as fact does not help anyone.
Nobody is questioning that your car runs smoother with WVO, just not for the reason you are claiming.

SINCE 2002 DIESEL FUEL IN AUSTRALIA HAS HAD THE REQUIRED LUBRICITY. It is written into the Australian diesel fuel standard.
http://www.environment.gov.au/protection/fuel-quality/standards/diesel.

Here is a test you can do to check whether the WVO is actually providing the substantial lubricity for your engine as you claim.
Completely drain all the oil from your engines sump and just drive around with no oil in your sump.
After a couple of weeks driving with no oil in the sump tell us how things are going.


...because of the deranged psychopath constantly abusing and insulting others.Wasn't that the fellow who claimed that with his Optus mobile phone he "went across the Nullabor last year and came back down the centre, had good coverage most places..." even though Optus provides NO mobile coverage on the Nullabor http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Qwarla
14th June 2018, 08:45 PM
There is a very simple reason your engine sounds different on WVO. It has nothing at all to do with lubricity of the fuel.
A simple test to prove it is when running on dino fill an oil can with ATF and squirt a a few shots into the intake system.
All that will happen is the engine will produce a bit more smoke.

What you are failing to comprehend is that ino and WVO have very different burn characteristics, and that is why the engine produces a different sound.
Next time ya huddled around the camp fire get two empty tins. Fill one with dino and the other with WVO.
One at a time chuck them into the fire and notice the results. The dino will produce more flames and at a faster rate.

And it has nothing to do with lubricity.

83Patrol
14th June 2018, 09:49 PM
very different burn characteristics, and that is why the engine produces a different sound.
.

Yes, effectively the timing is altered.

I used to have a Mercedes 300D. When I bought it, it was noisy as anything. Previous owner had advanced the timing to compensate for a cylinder being down on compression, I think.

Anyway, when I reset the timing to normal, it ran much more quietly (and "seemed" smoother, most likely because of the reduced noise).

Tony From West Oz
14th June 2018, 11:51 PM
I can see that the engine may run quieter on veggie oil than on diesel because of the different burn characteristics of the fuels. In fact, that is the only reason that I can think of that there would be a difference. Both fuels are injected using the same IP and injectors, so the only difference is the fuel.
If you were to add some petrol ( say 10%) to the veggie oil (as an experiment) I am sure that the engine sound would change. Add a higher proportion of ULP and the engine should sound different again.
I concur that the Lubricity of the fuel should not change the sound of the engine running, especially on a Common Rail Diesel.

tillyfromparadise
16th June 2018, 11:31 AM
Hi Alga,


Tony, I have a 671gm common rail,...One other correction to what you posted.
The 6-71 Detroit Diesel does not use a common rail injection system, it uses unit injectors.
Unit injectors combines the injector nozzle and the injector pump in a single component.