Sydney Diesel Centre says stay away from BD

[russell Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close russell]

I just dropped off my vehicle at Giluma Cook Sydney Biodiesel Centre to have them fix a leaky injector. On the bench were a collection of jars with diesel fuel in them, labelled "Good", "not so good", "bad", "very very bad", "shocking" etc etc... the worst were one that looked like used motor oil, very black, and one that was cloudy yellow with a thick layer of white precipitate on the bottom of the jar, that was about 30% of the depth of the jar . I might ask to take a pic when I go back to pick up the car.

I asked the bloke behind the counter, how do you know what you're getting when you fill up? He said well, you don't! But you're usually right with the major oil companies, he says, and "stay away from biodiesel" said he. I didn't press him for more info (should have, in retrospect), but I doubt he'd say that if he didn't have anecdotal evidence that vehicles with dodgy fuel in the pump or tank had been filled with BD. I'd also guess that what that really means is that -- as the dominant (only?) supplier of labelled biodiesel at the bowser in Sydney -- Volume Plus diesel fuel is to blame.

Interested to hear people's comments.

[Guest Close David]

Re: Sydney Diesel Centre says stay away from BD

It seems to me that there is a lot of Dodgy fuel out there at the moment and from what is mentioned here, a lot of it is bio and a lot of it seems to be coming from volume plus.

If I were buying Bio ATM, I would be putting it into containers to check what I was getting before I put it in the fuel tank of my vehicle. Unless I could check it was perfect, I think I would also be running it through a good filter on its way to the tank.

I would suggest it also may be a good idea to keep recipts and take notes of where and when the fuel was purchased. This may seem a bit overkill but for me, this would be better than breaking down and having to pay maybe $500 or more to have the vehicle' s fuel system cleaned out and risking any damage to expensive components as well.

As Volume Plus does not seem to give a hoot about the problems their fuel is causing, perhaps someone ought to make enquiries with the Dept. Of fair trading to see what could be done if someone were to get a load of dodgy fuel and how they would go about taking action.

It seems to me that if something isn't done about this sooner rather than later, biodiesel is going to overtake the ethanol fiasco and likely put an end to the bio fuel movement for a long time to come.

[Terry Syd Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Terry Syd]

Re: Sydney Diesel Centre says stay away from BD

And it is not just in Sydney. Here is a copy of my post from 8 October -

"I just got back from a 10 day bush trip. On one of the properties I was at the owner had tried some 'biodiesel' from the VP station in Dubbo. She paid $98 for the fuel. The truck couldn't pull fourth gear after filling up.

She paid $392 to have the tank drained and a new fuel filter installed. She said the stuff that came out of the tank had all sorts of jelly like gunk in it. She then paid for another fill-up!

I told her about stations blending low quality distillates into the biodiesel in order to stretch their margin. If she tries biodiesel again, she'll try some that I make for her. The biodiesel smell from my exhaust didn't smell anything like the stink that was coming out of her engine.

Unfortunately, I don't know what was in the fuel. These kind of incidents give biodiesel a bad name."

[Jacka Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Jacka]

Re: Sydney Diesel Centre says stay away from BD

Unfortunately, I don't know what was in the fuel. These kind of incidents give biodiesel a bad name."

As I see it this is the biggest problem we have at the moment.

Biodiesel is being pounded under the suspect gaze by everyone and petrol stations like VP don't make it any easier.

I have seen a couple of case's recently were people have blamed suspect fuel on biodiesel because it was an easy target but I know one of the Mechs and asked him personally how did he know it was BD. He couldn't tell me either way but he has had many case's and they all appeared to be BD! I supplied him some nice clean WVO produced BD to show him what Biodiesel looked like and get him to explain to me why he said the stuff comming out of the tanks was BD. He couldn't I let him know that he might instead of blaming BD want to blame a dodgy load of Fuel! What ever type it is! Made on convert! He works on my car without a problem and now understands that BD is not the problem but DODGY fuel be it of Dinodiesel origin or bio origin. When it is DODGY it is NOT biodiesel it is just a whole load of crap that people want them to pump into their tanks.

I think it comes down to correcting peoples incorrect information about BD and if we have to do it one mech at a time well I say we need to do it one mech at a time We are few but as we convert people we can become many

Find out why they say stay away from BD?
Find out WHAT they think BD is?
Show them exactly what BD is(please make sure it is upto standard or we could make it worse)
Work through the process of discussing with them that stations put ANYTHING they like in Diesel ( refer them to Roberts test of 15% unknow in Diesel)
Make a convert one mech at a time and they will help spread the word Fuel of anytype upto Standard quality will NOT cause problems thats why we have a standard(be it to harsh or not at times ) Ensure that they understand that there is a place like this were they are able to find out information and support.

Information has to be our weapon and the only way we will win this war is to provide CORRECT non-biased information to EVERYONE who asks and some who don't but make incorrect statements. Something that you would have thought BAA or RFA would have been doing but in general don't appear to be and their websites are proof of that with incorrect or a lack on information for the general public at all Lets hope we can build up enough around here so that we can pick up the slack and do what is needed. INFORM the Consumer!

/rant mode off/

[Captain Echidna Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Captain Echidna]

Re: Sydney Diesel Centre says stay away from BD

I guess though a repair service will only see cars with problems, or problems that could be associated with with biodiesel regardless of cause. (somtimes I feel mechanics dont really car about why something has happened, and perhaps say what the customer might think is reasonable just to get on with the job)
I guess if you go into hospital and ask someone there about sport, they may say, "Dont do it, you should see some of the problems we see in here" because they dont see the benifits.
Just highlighting the statistical problem with information from a repair place.

[Terry Syd Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Terry Syd]

Re: Sydney Diesel Centre says stay away from BD

Dave/Jacka, I haven't made 'standard' biodiesel for years. During the winter I might up the methanol to above 20% for some really fatty feedstock, but this time of the year I just use 15% methanol. My truck can take it with no problems.

I see the problem as a blending problem. As I mentioned at the picnic, all sorts of liquids get distilled at these distillation plants. I have seen old paint, used paint thinner, used ATF, used motor oil - anything that can be distilled down is thrown in. Many of these waste disposal plants distill whatever comes through the gate - so where does it go?

At one of the plants I worked near, it was blended into diesel fuel. Now with the advent of biodiesel being available to raise the cetane, oxygenate the fuel and provide increase lubricity, I expect that even greater quantities of this distilled waste is being dumped into the blend.

I have done some blending myself, 10% used engine oil in biodiesel runs just fine. However, there is no way I would ever blend in the stuff that comes out of these distillation plants. From past experience I won't refuel at a 'cheapo' petrol station, it is just not worth taking a chance.

The station owner I mentioned that got the fuel in Dubbo said that the fumes from her engine not only stank, but they made her eyes water. She could even smell it in the cab. Burning biodiesel doesn't make your eyes water.

[Gunner Donating Member Find all posts View Profile Close Gunner]

Re: Sydney Diesel Centre says stay away from BD

Burning biodiesel doesn't make your eyes water.

,..... It makes your mouth water!

[gwalker Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close gwalker]

Re: Sydney Diesel Centre says stay away from BD

What we need is a few mechanical service centres who have genuine biodiesel experience and who we can refer people to.
It would be worth finding someone already sympathic and supplying enough bio for their own use so they become an advocate.
I would gladly take my vehicle to someone who would service it and not blame every problem on 'bio'.
I would gladly recommend a mechanic who would go over a vehicle to check it for 'bio' suitability.
I would gladly recommend a mechanic who would prepare a vehicle for bio operation - correct hoses, filters etc.
The same goes for rebuilding IP's with bio compatible seals.
Is there someone in the Sydney area like this?
George

[neilmclaren Biofuels Forum Newbie Find all posts View Profile Close neilmclaren]

Re: Sydney Diesel Centre says stay away from BD

I have filled up at the Volume Plus on Waringah Rd North of the bridge. It does have the nice bbq smell. Is there any of the major suppliers doing biodiesel that is more reliable. Is BP ?
NeilM

[Chris Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Chris]

Re: Sydney Diesel Centre says stay away from BD

Hi All
I am just curious to know what all of those diesel IP repair shops as well as diesel mech's did prior to the introduction of biodiesel
Very rarely they go bust, unlike petrol car workshops,
In general one finds they have been there in the same location since Adam was a boy
Whenever we had a fuel injector pump playing up from a fleet of over 300 diesel powered pieces of equipment we run in a hire fleet, I used to come out in a cold sweat shivering at the forthcoming repair cost bill
Amazingly when the opportunity to purchase a s/h fuel injector pump repair and calibrating system we did not passed it up
The simplicity of setting up a pump following the instructions supplied with the machine, as well as the repair process was an eye opener
Having done quite a few pumps I can say with a fair amount of confidence these things are very well built they will withstand a fair amount of abuse from bad fuel not nice but it just happens
Here is what we used to do when an injector pump or an engine was playing up before removing the pump for recalibration or checking it on the bench
It was standard procedure, no time was spent investigating any other cause, whenever we had an engine that was playing up for unknown reasons, It normally paid off
1.Drain out all of the fuel in the tank regardless if it is suspect or not
2.Refill with clean good fuel after flashing it out with a litre or two of clean fuel
3.Undo all of the fuel lines from the pump to the injectors
4.Remove the fuel injectors from the engine
5.Turn the engine over until clean fuel emerged from the pump
7.Connect up the fuel injectors to the pump while they are out of the engine and turn the engine over a few times to purge the injectors
8.Replace the fuel filters regardless of how new they where
9.Re assemble the removed components, purge the system, no air locks
10.Start up the engine check for any leaks under running conditions
The above steps certainly did the trick in most cases
By the way these steps are longer to write than perform it used to take about fifteen to twenty minutes to do a 4 cylinder engine
From many years of practicing this procedure, it worked nine times out of ten saving a fortune
It is wise all of us to remember "A diesel engine will run or it wont"
If there is nothing blown or broken It comes down to fuel and pump
It is not like a petrol engine that needs tuning
In all fairness If you take your diesel driven vehicle to a diesel mechanic, in the absence of a major engine component failing like a burnt piston or a valve, or a blown gasket, which will be very obvious, there can only be a single source of problems, Fuel, or Injector Pump He will charge you
These guys are at the high earning end of the vehicle repair market due to the specialised nature of the work they do, they are also in a very clean environment unlike the general look of the normal repair shop
They are the "brain surgeons" of the motor trade, they also charge accordingly
The proliferation of diesel powered passenger vehicles has done nothing to increase their number either they are just getting busier with longer turn around times
If people will follow these 10 simple steps before they go to the "Brain Surgeons" they will avoid visits to the diesel shops and save themselves a lot of heartache as well as money

[gtemco Biofuels Forum Newbie Find all posts View Profile Close gtemco]

Re: Sydney Diesel Centre says stay away from BD

Diesel repair centres only see the disasters that poor quality fuel can cause and therefore are likely to routinely condemn Bio. They never see the thousands of vehicles that are successfully running around on Bio. The only way you can be sure of quality bio is if you make it yourself to a high standard. I have been running two vehicles on 100% BD ( home brewed ) for over 40,000 miles with no problems, although I change my diesel filters regularly and check the sediment traps weekly.

Here in England there is a BD friendly diesel technician who will modify pumps and injectors to be more bio-friendly. He recently rebuilt a Bosch pump for me using Viton seals and it has run perfectly for the last 20,000 miles on 100% BD. Here is his website. Diesel Bob Tuning - The ultimate diesel engine tuning as well as a diesel fuel injection service. Repairs and reconditioning of injectors and diesel pumps, suppliers of diesel fuel system parts and additives

Ian

[Cameron Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close Cameron]

Re: Sydney Diesel Centre says stay away from BD

G'day Ian,
Can you tell us more about what Diesel Bob did to your vehicle and why he did it? What are you driving?

Cheers,
Cameron

[Chris Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Chris]

Re: Sydney Diesel Centre says stay away from BD

Hi All
There is a post here of what one can do with a fuel IP in a diesel motor so as to get the best out of biodiesel
The short summary is: since biodiesel burns a little faster than dino diesel a small adjustment to the timing may be carried out so as to take advantage of this attribute of biodiesel

[gtemco Biofuels Forum Newbie Find all posts View Profile Close gtemco]

Re: Sydney Diesel Centre says stay away from BD

G'day Ian,
Can you tell us more about what Diesel Bob did to your vehicle and why he did it? What are you drivingt?

Cheers,
Cameron

Hi Cameron,

My 2000 model Ford Transit 2.5 Di blew a main seal on it's 'Bosch VE' pump. When 'Diesel Bob' stripped it down he commented that the seal had softened excessively causing it to blow. He thought that biodiesel may have caused the softening of the seal and rebuilt the pump using Viton seals throughout. He commented that apart from the seals the pump was in excellent shape. Viton seals are used in all kinds of industrial pumps where resistance to chemicals, heat and high pressure is required but surprisingly many diesel pumps (even on modern vehicles) don't fit them as standard. Apparently Nitrile is still the more common material used for diesel pump seals and indeed automotive seals in general. Nitrile seals have been around for years and although they are synthetic they can degrade with age; they were developed by Dupont who also invented Viton.

Regards - Ian

[Guest Close Marc1]

Re: Sydney Diesel Centre says stay away from BD

I just dropped off my vehicle at Giluma Cook Sydney Biodiesel Centre to have them fix a leaky injector. On the bench were a collection of jars with diesel fuel in them, labelled "Good", "not so good", "bad", "very very bad", "shocking" etc etc... the worst were one that looked like used motor oil, very black, and one that was cloudy yellow with a thick layer of white precipitate on the bottom of the jar, that was about 30% of the depth of the jar . I might ask to take a pic when I go back to pick up the car.

I asked the bloke behind the counter, how do you know what you're getting when you fill up? He said well, you don't! But you're usually right with the major oil companies, he says, and "stay away from biodiesel" said he. I didn't press him for more info (should have, in retrospect), but I doubt he'd say that if he didn't have anecdotal evidence that vehicles with dodgy fuel in the pump or tank had been filled with BD. I'd also guess that what that really means is that -- as the dominant (only?) supplier of labelled biodiesel at the bowser in Sydney -- Volume Plus diesel fuel is to blame.

Interested to hear people's comments.

Do you mean this one?
This "fuel" came out of my Toyota Surf and is pure fuel from Volume Plus Liverpool. This is the jar that you saw in Giluma Diesel line up. Volume Plus guys, yes, I have one month of reciept to proove I used to pump fuel exclusively at that station for the month in question so the damage came from using your fuel.



Giluma Diesel is a good workshop, not cheap but they do a thorough job. Unfortunately they have a lot of very young mechanics so their collective experience is somehow limited. Their experience with Biodiesel is limited to what their customer tell them and with Volume Plus being the ONLY supplier of Biofuel in Sydney, the only other source of information could come from those who make the fuel themselves. Since none of the backyard brewers is likely to bag their own fuel, all this guys hear is horror stories from the ex customer of Volume Plus like myself.
When I had my fuel system cleaned and this gunk came out of my fuel filter, I took the above photo and asked them to add this to their line up of bad fuel and gave them a quick run down on the origin of this crap and the fact that there is good biofuel available and that this is not representative of the Biodiesel industry.

I can however understand why they say stay away from Biodiesel. They do so since Biodiesel and Volume Plus are synonyms in Sydney until someone comes up with an alternative. Since then, for the ordinary motorist who has no time or inclination to make his own fuel, it is clearly stay away from Biodiesel for Sydney motorist unfortunately.