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  • Questions And Information

    Greetings to all my fellow WVO/WCO users. What a wonderful bunch of helpful, informative, cooperative and, probably, highly individual/pioneering/ECCENTRIC individuals. I warn you now, THIS is going to be a BIT LONG, but I hope you stick wit it.
    I am very new to this and am a committed WVO, as opposed BD, user. I live in Opua (WHERE? I here you ask) which is at the top end of the North Island of New Zealand. It is known as "The Winterless North."
    My first topic in this thread is:-
    "TALLOW."
    I currently get my "raw material," (used Cottonseed Oil) from a couple of local "chippies" who change their oil every couple of days. It is interesting to compare oil that has been used for about 2 weeks before changing, and oil that is changed every few days. I have a chemist friend who analyses oil for me and the Free Fatty Acid content has vaired from 1.7% which is good, apparently, to 3% which is "top end." I have some more samples which have yet to be done, I will post the results. Anyway, back to Tallow. I currently put the oil through a failry wide "tea strainer" type thing, to get the larger lumps of batter etc out and then I "hot filter" it. The "Opua(WV) Oil Refinery is a bit "Mickey Mouse" at present, but is eveolving. I heat the oil in a 4 litre fryer and then filter it through a kitchen towel into a large coffee urn, thence into the truck. I do not remove the "Tallow," it all goes into the tank and seems to work fine, I guess it must do as I have run out of WVO on occasion amd had to run on diesel for a while until I could make a fresh brew. In the course of the "Opua(WV) Oil Refinery's evolution, I now have a large 100 micron filter/strainer specifically designed/manufactured to fit over a 200 litre drum, which obviously has had the top removed. This means that I can dump the WVO straight into the 100 micron strainer and leave it filter into the drum. The 100 micron strainer now traps the tallow as well as the large bits of batter etc and makes the straining process really slow. I have basically 2 choices, as I see it, and this why I am writng so much about Tallow as I really will appreciated imput. I can either do what I have been doing, strain the big bits out and continue to use the tallow or put the whole lot through the 100 micron strainer, wait quite a long time and then get rid of the tallow elsewhere. I did put 1x20 litre batch into the 100 micron strainer and it took AGES, the other drawback, to me, was that I ended up with about 5 litres of tallow in the strainer. I welcome comments on experiences with Tallow.
    FILTERING
    As mentioned above, I currently "hot filter" and then the filtered stuff goes into the truck. It has been suggested that "cold filtering" is good but slow and so I decided to do some experiments.
    I "cold filtered" a fairly small amount and put a sample in a jar. It is BOOOOOOOOOOOOOTIFUL and clear. My wife remarked that it looked good enough to cook with. It will be interesting to find out the Free Fatty Acid % in this.
    I then put some "just hot filtered" in a jar with some cold filtered. That was interesting in that there was quite a bit of "stuff" that settled to the bottom. The oil at the top was almost as clear as the cold filtered.
    I then put some only "hot filtered" in a jar and finally some "straight from the chippy" in another jar.
    I then, purely because of lack of space, put all 4 samples on an outside window ledge. The cold filtered remained the same, the "part hot part cold" had become cloudy again, the hot filtered ahd changed very little and the "straight from the chippy" was the same. I could not for the life of me understand why the "part hot part cold" had clouded and then it dwaned on me, maybe the geat from the sun through the window had warmed that sample enough to move the sediment around!!! EUREKA (perhaps) I have now put that sample in the fridge to see what happens. I have a WONDERFUL wife who indulges my eccentricities!!
    I also tried other experiments. I put a jug of "hot filtered" in the fridge and another jug in the freezer. Both batches had the Tallow in them. The jug in the fridge did not solidify and the jug in the freezer solidified just at the top. I really don't know what, if anything, these experiments prove, or even just signify, it is just that I found them interesting to do, especially because of the Tallow in just about all the batches.
    I hope that I have not bored you all with this. I find this alternative fuel thing totally fascinating. I have read about Bio Diesel and am still firmly convinced that it is being pushed by governments and the MTA, certainly here in New Zealand, in order to keep "Big Oil" involved and making money. There would be no place for "Big Oil" in the WVO/WCO industry, certainly not as I would see it developing anyway.
    Kindest rgards
    Otherside532

  • #2
    Re: Questions And Information

    Good work,
    testing increases your knowledge.o
    Reporting the tests and results increases the knowledge of all of us.

    Your 'cold filtered" sample was filtered finer than the warm and part cold filtered samples. This happens because the tallows block the filter pores and hte liquid oil must percolate thru it, shedding impurities as it goes. This oil can be filtered much finer than 1 micron by this technique, using a 5 micron filter.
    the other filtered samples will have contaminants in the 1 to 5 micron range which would have been retained by the tallows. They also contains oils which have a high melting point, resulting in clouding as the oils cool.
    The unfiltered sample is a good sample to compare. I am sure that you would prefer the cold filtered oil after seeing it's cold temperature performance.

    Note that the cold filtered oil, if filtered in summer, would cloud if put into the fridge. Those oils which have clouded, would have been liquid at 30°C

    If your hot filtered oil is allowed to sit for several weeks, with daily temperature changes, the solid oils will migrate to the bottom of the container, allowing the liquid oils (at the prevailing overnight temperature) to be decanted from above the cloudy oils below.
    Life is a journey, with problems to solve, lessons to learn, but most of all, experiences to enjoy.

    Current Vehicles in stable:
    '06 Musso Sports 4X4 Manual Crew Cab tray back.
    '04 Rexton 4X4 Automatic SUV
    '2014 Toyota Prius (on ULP) - Wife's car

    Previous Vehicles:
    '90 Mazda Capella. (2000 - 2003) My first Fatmobile. Converted to fun on veggie oil with a 2 tank setup.
    '80 Mercedes 300D. 2 tank conversion [Sold]
    '84 Mercedes 300D. 1 tank, no conversion. Replaced engine with rebuilt OM617A turbodiesel engine. Finally had good power. Engine donor for W123 coupe. (body parted out and carcass sold for scrap.)
    '85 Mercedes Benz W123 300CD Turbodiesel
    '99 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my darling Wife's car)[sold]
    '98 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my car)[sold]
    '06 Musso Sports Crew Cab well body. [Head gasket blew!]
    '04 Rexton SUV 2.9L Turbodiesel same as Musso - Our Family car.
    '06 Musso sports Crew Cab Trayback - My hack (no air cond, no heater).

    Searching the Biofuels Forum using Google
    Adding images and/or documents to your posts

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Questions And Information

      An interesting monologue otherside... Maybe ask your chemist friend if he can do viscosity testing (at different temperatures). That would be really beneficial, then you can test each of your different "blends" to see how high you have to heat them to reach the same viscosity as diesel.

      Tony - what % of the oil/fat do you lose by cold filtering, and what do you do with it???
      Cheers,

      Ben.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Questions And Information

        It is quite easy to do viscosity tests.

        Use a syringe case (obtain from the "baby" section of a chemist or supermarket - they are used dispense lIquid medications). Tape it upright to a stand.

        Use a stopwatch to time how long 100ml takes to flow through the syringe. The shorter the time it takes, the lower is the viscosity. Compare it to diesel fuel. We don't need to use proper measurement units like Poise as we only need comparisons. The only thing that we need to be a little careful with is to ensure our temperature and volume is constant.

        However, we are also interested in the viscosity of our oil at operating temps too, so that we can compare it with ordinary diesel fuel. So if you measure the temperature of your oil at the IP as 80degC, you need to measure your viscosity at 80degC and compare it to the reading you get for diesel at the current ambient temperature. It will give you a good idea of where you're at and the difference between your oil and diesel.

        Don't test hot oil in a plastic syringe. You need a glass one for hot oil, which you can sometimes get at markets or car boot sales.
        Cheers
        Bruce


        1976 W123 300D (3 litre 5-cyl NA diesel running on SVO since June 2006)
        1982 W126 280SE (Sadly is For Sale)
        1993 W124 300D (3 litre 6-cyl NA diesel - being converted to SVO)

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Questions And Information

          Originally posted by isuzurover View Post
          An interesting monologue otherside... Maybe ask your chemist friend if he can do viscosity testing (at different temperatures). That would be really beneficial, then you can test each of your different "blends" to see how high you have to heat them to reach the same viscosity as diesel.

          Tony - what % of the oil/fat do you lose by cold filtering, and what do you do with it???
          Ben,
          From the restaurant, probably 10% high melting point oils, from the fish & choip shop, probably around 2%. In summer, halve these as the oils start to melt above 25°C and are all liquid by 40°C.
          I know people who make biodiesel. They take these oils from me for biodiesel. This is NOT TAllow, but a high % of hydrogenated oil.
          Tony
          Life is a journey, with problems to solve, lessons to learn, but most of all, experiences to enjoy.

          Current Vehicles in stable:
          '06 Musso Sports 4X4 Manual Crew Cab tray back.
          '04 Rexton 4X4 Automatic SUV
          '2014 Toyota Prius (on ULP) - Wife's car

          Previous Vehicles:
          '90 Mazda Capella. (2000 - 2003) My first Fatmobile. Converted to fun on veggie oil with a 2 tank setup.
          '80 Mercedes 300D. 2 tank conversion [Sold]
          '84 Mercedes 300D. 1 tank, no conversion. Replaced engine with rebuilt OM617A turbodiesel engine. Finally had good power. Engine donor for W123 coupe. (body parted out and carcass sold for scrap.)
          '85 Mercedes Benz W123 300CD Turbodiesel
          '99 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my darling Wife's car)[sold]
          '98 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my car)[sold]
          '06 Musso Sports Crew Cab well body. [Head gasket blew!]
          '04 Rexton SUV 2.9L Turbodiesel same as Musso - Our Family car.
          '06 Musso sports Crew Cab Trayback - My hack (no air cond, no heater).

          Searching the Biofuels Forum using Google
          Adding images and/or documents to your posts

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Questions And Information

            yes i think heat is the go.To begin my first stage of filtering i use a 44 with a 1/2' fitting braised to the side at the bottom and a valve . ive cut out the top and made a wire mesh basket that sits in the top of the drum this is lined with cloth gauze.i pour the oil i have collected in 20 ltr containers into this basket at the top of the drum. The drum sits on a small stand with a gas ring burning under it. After a time the gauze becomes clogged, so i release some HOT oil into a buckey and pour it back into the basket. This melts the clogged fats just leaving behind food particles.I pour in another container or two of collected oil until the basket blocks again and repeat, until i hav a hot 44 of oil
            ready to pump through screw on filters first an oil filter and then a fuel filter, then into a storage drum mounted high enough to gravity feed into my filler cap.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Questions And Information

              Dagwill, Can you post photos of your filtration setup please?
              Tony
              Life is a journey, with problems to solve, lessons to learn, but most of all, experiences to enjoy.

              Current Vehicles in stable:
              '06 Musso Sports 4X4 Manual Crew Cab tray back.
              '04 Rexton 4X4 Automatic SUV
              '2014 Toyota Prius (on ULP) - Wife's car

              Previous Vehicles:
              '90 Mazda Capella. (2000 - 2003) My first Fatmobile. Converted to fun on veggie oil with a 2 tank setup.
              '80 Mercedes 300D. 2 tank conversion [Sold]
              '84 Mercedes 300D. 1 tank, no conversion. Replaced engine with rebuilt OM617A turbodiesel engine. Finally had good power. Engine donor for W123 coupe. (body parted out and carcass sold for scrap.)
              '85 Mercedes Benz W123 300CD Turbodiesel
              '99 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my darling Wife's car)[sold]
              '98 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my car)[sold]
              '06 Musso Sports Crew Cab well body. [Head gasket blew!]
              '04 Rexton SUV 2.9L Turbodiesel same as Musso - Our Family car.
              '06 Musso sports Crew Cab Trayback - My hack (no air cond, no heater).

              Searching the Biofuels Forum using Google
              Adding images and/or documents to your posts

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Questions And Information

                Originally posted by dagwill View Post
                yes i think heat is the go.To begin my first stage of filtering i use a 44 with a 1/2' fitting braised to the side at the bottom and a valve . ive cut out the top and made a wire mesh basket that sits in the top of the drum this is lined with cloth gauze.i pour the oil i have collected in 20 ltr containers into this basket at the top of the drum. The drum sits on a small stand with a gas ring burning under it. After a time the gauze becomes clogged, so i release some HOT oil into a buckey and pour it back into the basket. This melts the clogged fats just leaving behind food particles.I pour in another container or two of collected oil until the basket blocks again and repeat, until i hav a hot 44 of oil
                ready to pump through screw on filters first an oil filter and then a fuel filter, then into a storage drum mounted high enough to gravity feed into my filler cap.

                Hi Dagwill
                I read your post with great interest.
                We operate similarly but different!! I heat my waste oil BEFORE it goes in the "44" as you call it. I also have a plastic strainer which comprises a 100 micron filter.I import these as there appears to be nothing like them in Australia or New Zealand. The strainer fits on top of the "44" I am not technically inclined and there is about as much chance of my making a wire mesh basket as there is of my being the man in the moon. I tried to find something locally but was quoted NZ$120.00 plus GST for 1 sq m of 100 micron wire mesh and about NZ$80.00 for 1 sq m of 100 micron plastic and that would be BFORE making it fit on a "44." The strainers are manufactured to fit a "44" and do so as snug as the proverbial bug in the proverbial rug. You can get an idea of what I am doing, if you are interested, by going to Fryer To Fuel

                Carry on filtering!!!
                Kind regards
                Geoff-Opua,Bay of Islands, New Zealand Propietor of "Opua (Waste Vegetable Oil) Refinery-OPEC membership pending!

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Questions And Information

                  Hi there experienced vege fueller

                  I am doing my numbers at the moment and payback on a vege setup for my looks to be about 5 years if I install one of the Environcar systems at $4,000. you look to have made some investments yourself when you consider the conversion of your vehicle and the paraphenalia required to filter the WVO.

                  How do make this WVO arrangement pay instead of cost?
                  Landcruiser 4.2T:cool:

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Questions And Information

                    Hey Geoff,
                    Have you tried this crowd for drum - sock filters? They are in New Lynn.
                    Particle Solutionz - Filter Vessels and Bags for Liquid Filtration

                    Today, I got feed up with filter clogging, so I have moved my filtration to "tank entry point" rather than an "on demand" system. I'm using a plastic tank, so no chance of rust. The outlet is 50mm or so above the bottom so if any sediment really does make its way through the 1 micron filter sock, it can settle.
                    So far, results are very encouraging..... especially with power.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Questions And Information

                      Otherside, where did you locate the 100 micron steel mesh material?
                      cheers<BR>Chris.<BR>1990 landcruiser 80, 1HD-T two tank, copper pipe HE+ 20 plate FPHE, toyota solenoids and filters. 1978 300D, elsbett one tank system.<BR>

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Questions And Information

                        Originally posted by Captain Echidna View Post
                        Otherside, where did you locate the 100 micron steel mesh material?
                        I found it at "Mounts Wire" in Auckland. I had only written down the address and phone number and had to call to check who they were. I checked again on the price, since I was calling anyway, and this morning I was told it would be NZ$64.00 plus GST for 1 sq.m of 100 micron staineless steel wire mesh! Go figure! They have a website Mounts Wire - Home Page
                        I must say my 100 micron plastic strainer, manufactured specifically to fit on a 200 litre drum,is, to me at least, a far more practical proposition and less than half the price of the stainless steel mesh which I would still have to adjust to fit the drum.
                        Hope this helps
                        Kind regards
                        Geoff A/K/A "Otherside"

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Questions And Information

                          Originally posted by greenhat View Post
                          Hi there experienced vege fueller

                          I am doing my numbers at the moment and payback on a vege setup for my looks to be about 5 years if I install one of the Environcar systems at $4,000. you look to have made some investments yourself when you consider the conversion of your vehicle and the paraphenalia required to filter the WVO.

                          How do make this WVO arrangement pay instead of cost?
                          Hello "greenhat"
                          The REALLY short answer to "pay instead of cost," in my view at least, is to make your own fuel, which is what I do.
                          The "pay back" period depends to a VERY large extent on HOW you obtain your fuel and HOW MUCH you use per week.
                          My business background is almost 40 years in the mortgage, finance and insurance business in 4 countries and I could go on at length here about "pay back" times, but here is just a very simple,basic example.
                          Suppose, just for example, a conversion kit cost you NZ$5,000.00 in total and you borrowed the $5,000.00 at 12.5% over 2 years, the repayment would be $54.58 per week. Suppose you used 100 litres of diesel per week and it cost $1.00 per litre, your fuel cost is $100.00 per week. A no brainer that one!! Suppose you could buy clean waste veggie oil for $0.60 per litre, you would save $40.00 per week so the conversion kit would be costing you $14.58 per week. NOW, if you could buy the clean waste veggie for $0.45 per litre, the kit would pay for itself in the 2 years. NOW, if you got your own filter system, as I have, and you collected your own oil, as I do from 2 local chippies, who are glad of the local regular service, the fuel would cost you next to nothing, apart from your time and a few dollars for electricity to heat the oil before filtering.
                          You may also like to check with "Clean Green car Company" in Auckland, they have a few German made kits in stock and have a mechanic who installs them. Go and check out ELSBETTŪ a Google search on "Elsbett" will also prove invaluable
                          Kind regards
                          Geoff A/K/A Otherside

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Questions And Information

                            I just got back from 100km test of my vegevan. It's never gone so good!!
                            I will still use the "on demand" CAV296 filter for the diesel, especially given the fact that the diesel tank's a steel one and I have no way of really knowing how much grud might be in there.
                            My vege tank is transparent plastic.
                            The next plan is to use a 20litre cubie as a kind of an overgrown funnel and plumb that with a one micron filter to the holding tank. Basically any oil I tip in the "funnel" tank can take as long as it likes to make its' way to the main tank.
                            Hope that's clear.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Questions And Information

                              ill add some photos if my computer skills are up to it. the basket was made to fit a 60 ltr drum
                              ,i have clamped it to the 200 ltr drum until i make a larger one. its made of weld mesh with fly wire
                              inside it i then drape the sheet of fine gause over that, its easy to pull out and hose off.

                              http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q...odiesel013.jpg
                              http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q...odiesel012.jpg
                              gas ring from old hws for heating
                              http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q...odiesel014.jpg
                              hot oil flows down to power stearing pump which pumps it through my filter system.or if gause blocks
                              while filling drum i pour hot oil from valve to left of press. guage and pour back into wire cage.
                              Note presuer guage, right most valve allows oil to go back to suction side of pump for pres. control.
                              http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q...odiesel020.jpg
                              oil then passes through z9 oil filterthen through the stainless steel filter[very fine]? and
                              lastly through a MB fuel filter and up the hose just to the right of the L in castrol into my holding tank
                              .On the end of this hose is an old hose fitting like we used to screw onto the tap 20 yrs ago
                              After a few batches i back flush my filters. To do this i take the hose out of my holding tank
                              [numbering the valves right to left from the pressure guage] i screw it onto valve No. 1 and
                              close valve No2 This now reverses the direction of flow.With No5 valve open MB filter is backwashed
                              [into small bucket] then closed.No4 valve opened S.S. filter cleaned,No3 valve opened
                              ,oops theres a non return rubber in the z9 chuck it.
                              http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q...odiesel021.jpg
                              http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q...odiesel022.jpg
                              the tall silver HWS is my reactor,when i make bio out of whats not good enough for SVO.
                              i watch as i pour in each 20 ltr container,watching the clear golden canola oil with a smile .
                              As soon as solid fat starts to run i put that oil aside until i have 150 ltrs of it and make a batch of bio with it.
                              i should have used black fittings or thrown the galv ones into hydrchloric acid but you know how it is.
                              I hope the photos work out i couldnt seem to get a link,is there a better site to use than photo bucket,
                              or am i just a bit thick]
                              dagwill
                              Senior Member
                              Last edited by dagwill; 19 November 2006, 11:24 AM.

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