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Be Careful !!

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  • Be Careful !!

    A little earlier today, I was out the back sorting some oil tins and doing a bit of filtering. Every now and then I was getting a whiff of a strange burning smell.
    Now I love to play with fire in the literal as well as every other sense of the term, but when I smell smoke for something I haven't set alight, I start getting worried probably more than most people.

    I had a check around to make sure that nothing around my place was burning and finding nothing, went back to what I was doing. I kept smelling this smoke for a while till I got a real strong whiff that told me this wasn't coming from anywhere but in my place.

    After realising that the smell was not in my shed, as I came out the door I caught sight of a wisp of smoke and saw it was coming from a rag I had been using yesterday wiping up some dribbles from yesterdays filtering efforts and cleaning up spilt oil from the top of some oil tins which were now a couple of meters outside the garage.

    The rag was quite oil soaked and I was meaning to wash it to re-use along with some similarly saturated cloths.
    I have seen warnings about this very thing here before and I will admit to forgetting about what has been said about treating oily rags carefully. The first pic shows the rag which was a small old towel as it was sitting in a heap in the sun and had started burning from the center out.

    What I find particularly frightening is the fact today isn't even what I would call a hot day even if it is very warm in the sun. Air temp would be under 30 and there is a slight haze ( from bushfires I think) and a very gentle breeze blowing. The rag was also partially shaded and there was nothing around it to reflect any other light onto it. The oil I had been wiping up with it was Canola. Had it been a hot day, this rag would have been in flames Hours ago no doubt.

    Seeing a smouldering rag you have left behind and the realization of what could have happened if it weren't for some dumb luck in you being in the right place at the right time has certainly instilled a lesson I'll not forget again.
    Luckily the rag was sitting on an empty tin and far enough away from anything else to make the chance of burning anything remote, but this was only through good fortune, not planning. The results of this rag catching alight if it were sitting on a full plastic drum may have been entirely different. The resulting fire may have traveled with the flowing , burning oil or the heat from 20L of oil really taking off could have easily caught a lot of other things alight.

    So, be careful people, sloppy practices we may have got away with over winter now pose a real and potential danger to homes and property in the warmer weather.

    I'll be having a serious rethink about what I do with these oily rags from now on and be a lot more selective about where and how I leave them.










  • #2
    Re: Be Careful !!

    Hi David,

    Tmely reminder. Thanks for sharing your observations. It shows that we can all at times overlook a perhaps not too fre quent happening. This guy appreciates your meaningful warning.

    Cheers


    Dillyman

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    • #3
      Re: Be Careful !!

      I find this amazing. I would have thought it would have needed a lens to concentrate the light to bring it up to comburtion temperature. Maybe just one drop of oil could do this in bright sunlight?
      George
      gwalker
      Senior Member
      Last edited by gwalker; 20 November 2006, 05:56 PM.

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      • #4
        Re: Be Careful !!

        Wow scary stuff. Lucky you were home.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Be Careful !!

          Wow! I was going to post a thread similar to this tonight.

          I was cleaning up the shed yesterday around mid day and picked up a handful of oily rags, one of them quite soaked with Bio and tossed them in the wheelie bin. Later in the evening, around 8pm I could smell a burning smell while I was reacting a batch of Bio. After a bit of a look around I noticed the smoke coming from the bin. The rags had started to smoulder and melted the side of the bin.

          I had never heard of anything like this and was not sure if it self ignited or it was from some other means as I had used a grinder in the afternoon to cut a drum but that was 20 meters away and nothing went in the bin all afternoon.

          I was going to post a question.... Can rags self ignite? I now have the answer.
          My question now is .... What is the best thing to do with them? These rags went from inside the shed to the bin with the lid closed. No sun on them what so ever. Im sure it was warm in the bin but to self ignite????

          I am sure I am going to spill more bio so its a safe bet more rags will become soaked. What do other people do with them? All I can come up with is keep a bucket of soapy water and soak them in that. Then I suppose I might be able to wash and dry them and reuse them.


          Cheers, Chris
          96 Mitsubishi Delica Jasper SOLD [piece of junk]
          93 1HDT Landcruiser SOLD [still going strong]
          90 1HDT Landcruiser Current
          Combined total of 380,000kms on Bio Diesel with no problems related to bio.

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          • #6
            Re: Be Careful !!

            Spontaneous combustion!
            There have been many fires caused by rags which were used to apply linseed oil to furniture.

            Any 'drying oil' like linseed, canola, cottonseed, sunflower, safflower , etc, can cause spontaneous combustion. They do not need any external heat, the oil oxidises, (polymerisation) and this causes sufficient heat to ignite the rag.
            The appropriate disposal of vegetable oil rags is to place them into an air tight metal container.
            If the rags are to be washed, spread them out so that the heat from the polymerisation is dissipated quickly. Do not bunch them up, as the thermal insulation caused by the rag will hold the heat and it will start to smoulder. Once smouldering, the rag can burst into flame and cause significant damage, especially if you store fuel in the same location.

            Be safe, make sure that your insurance is up to date.
            Life is a journey, with problems to solve, lessons to learn, but most of all, experiences to enjoy.

            Current Vehicles in stable:
            '06 Musso Sports 4X4 Manual Crew Cab tray back.
            '04 Rexton 4X4 Automatic SUV
            '2014 Toyota Prius (on ULP) - Wife's car

            Previous Vehicles:
            '90 Mazda Capella. (2000 - 2003) My first Fatmobile. Converted to fun on veggie oil with a 2 tank setup.
            '80 Mercedes 300D. 2 tank conversion [Sold]
            '84 Mercedes 300D. 1 tank, no conversion. Replaced engine with rebuilt OM617A turbodiesel engine. Finally had good power. Engine donor for W123 coupe. (body parted out and carcass sold for scrap.)
            '85 Mercedes Benz W123 300CD Turbodiesel
            '99 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my darling Wife's car)[sold]
            '98 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my car)[sold]
            '06 Musso Sports Crew Cab well body. [Head gasket blew!]
            '04 Rexton SUV 2.9L Turbodiesel same as Musso - Our Family car.
            '06 Musso sports Crew Cab Trayback - My hack (no air cond, no heater).

            Searching the Biofuels Forum using Google
            Adding images and/or documents to your posts

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            • #7
              Re: Be Careful !!

              I've even seen spontaneous combustion with petroleum soaked rags left in a heap out in the sun. Let it get smoldering, then a bit of a light breeze to add some oxygen - and BINGO, instant barbeque. Luckily they were heaped up against a brick wall and not a wood one.

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              • #8
                Re: Be Careful !!

                Hi All
                This is all very unpleasant to say the least
                Back in August we did had an exchange of safety issues as well as some posts on MSDS regarding Methanol
                Some people took a dim view of my very post's suggesting scaremongering in regards to it, making biodiesel is not dangerous if certain precautions are taken
                I don't think we can be complacent about safety around our sheds and here we have a very dangerous scenario from something as simple as a wipe down rag setting the scene for a major disaster
                Yes an air tight metal container is the place for them or straight in the wash bucket filled with water as well as a lot of detergent
                We all have plenty of it is called Glycerol
                Dilute it down to about 20-30% Glycerol in water and stick your rags in there rinse them out after a day or two then hang them up to dry ready to reuse
                Easy safe environmentally good
                Cheers
                Chris
                Never give up :)

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Be Careful !!

                  As soon as any rag I am using gets a little wet from bio or WVO, I drop it into a bucket of glycerine and give it a good soaking then a good squeeze out, then rinse it with water in a drum I keep for that purpose. Hang them on the line and they are ready for use again in a couple of hours - nice and clean. The risk of spontaneous combustion is very real, particularly in summer.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Be Careful !!

                    Hi All
                    David, No, there is no relationship between self ignition of rags soaked in any drying oil and methanol fumes
                    The point was made in regards to safety with known as well as unknown dangers full stop No more no less
                    Your point of may be a safety guide for all may be a worthwhile exercise as a sticky, since as you pointed out August is a long time ago
                    Having spend a considerable amount of time around workshops with all manner of rather dangerous as well as benign looking items I am very conscious of hidden dangers
                    Your post is a classic of something as inoffensive such as a rag left laying around setting the scene for a large scale disaster
                    As Tony pointed out french polishing with the mixture of Metho shellack and linseed oil has been the cause of many fires in workshops
                    It is a trap indeed your post is appreciated My reference was meant to send people back to August as perhaps a refresher since they will certainly take note of your post with the excellent pictures
                    Only a few days ago I went looking at our warehouse (of timber construction) to do an inspection of the illuminated exit signs
                    I found one had caught on fire due to an exploding NiCad cell which a found on the floor about 6 feet away from the sign was installed
                    The batteries are there to light it up showing the exit when you have a mains failure
                    It had melted down around the fastening screws, fallen on the floor, luckily on a bit of metal plate, where it burned up to nothing
                    When I saw it there I was certainly surprised as well as shocked to see a safety device turning into a source of real danger
                    What is the point? we just cannot take anything for granted, we just need to always be aware of safety issues
                    Cheers
                    Chris
                    Never give up :)

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Be Careful !!

                      This forum is starting to feel like the film "Ground Hog day".
                      ("SPONTANIOUS COMBUSTION") We've all seen it before , heard it before, BUT STILL PEOPLE EVERY COUPLE OF MONTHS COME OUT WITH words of wisdom that they think the rest of us has never seen before.
                      As we kick off another roasting Summer my prediction is for the next words of warning to be about vapourizing meth. while making methox. on a hot day. Robert why we dont have a fixed thread for OH&S. this is getting boring.
                      Oh And just to get my two bobs worth "i heard of a guy who burnned out his car when he left a rag on the front seat with just a little cotton seed oil on it."

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                      • #12
                        Re: Be Careful !!

                        Good on you David. Even though I regularly clean my rags, you have reminded me of a lapse I have had, and that is - I DO leave a rag in the back of my Surf for wiping up spills when I refuel. Sitting there in the sun IS a big hazard that I have overlooked. Thanks for the heads up.
                        Bill

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                        • #13
                          Re: Be Careful !!

                          And then there is "Spontaneous Human Combustion!"

                          Imagine coming in from a hard days biodieseling covered in oil and methanol and Falling asleep in in your chair while drinking a bottle of your favourite Methanol Poisioning antidote.
                          Then, a Few hours later your wife enteres the room only to find your Crispy leg laying on the Floor!

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                          • #14
                            Re: Be Careful !!

                            HI all.

                            Gee I'm glad someone has brought this up. I would never have remembered it. I did Volunteer Marine Rescue (Air sea rescue) for two years and we were told about this.

                            Its up there with naked flames and methanol, etc. An oily rag will bring the whole operation to a firey holt.

                            Joe
                            Joe Morgan
                            Brisbane Biodiesel Site Admin
                            http://www.brisbanebiodiesel.com

                            Searching tips using Google - SVO Dual tank systems
                            SVO, Common Rail and Direct Injection - Vehicles converted to Used Cooking Oil

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                            • #15
                              Re: Be Careful !!

                              Interesting. When I have alway know about this danger I never saw one. Good pictures.
                              The sun has nothing to do with the rag catching fire, it is the heat of the rapid oxidation that builds up inside the bunched up rag. Of course a hot day helps.
                              If the rag had been fully extended hanging from a clothsline or on a flat surface, it would not have ignited.

                              What does the Glicerine do?

                              I use Dutch Oil for polishing sometimes and I soak the rags in a bucket of water and let them go hard in there. Once hard I can chuck them safely in the bin.

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