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  • Neutralising Glycerine

    I'm planning to start experimenting with composting glycerine, but I want to neutralise the KOH first. I've tried sulphuric acid, that made a gluggy mess, and also hydrochloric acid which was a little better. But I really want to try using Phosphoric acid as this will produce potassium phosphate which I understand to be a fertiliser.

    Anybody know where I can buy industrial grade phosphoric acid in reasonable quantities (& price), maybe 5-20L? I know that Rust Converter contains phosphoric acid but this will be a very expensive way to buy it in such small amounts.

  • #2
    Re: Neutralising Glycerine

    Gee I'm not surprised no one has touched this. My initial reaction (with my very limited experience ) is that you should be careful. Potassium is know for going BOOM when mixed in the right quantities with other stuff. Dunno about actually neutralising glycerine from KOH but I thought all ya need to do was distill the methanol off and it was safe for composting.

    Also be alert but not alarmed (potassium phosphate?!? )... you'll have the feds knocking on your door
    Joe Morgan
    Brisbane Biodiesel Site Admin
    http://www.brisbanebiodiesel.com

    Searching tips using Google - SVO Dual tank systems
    SVO, Common Rail and Direct Injection - Vehicles converted to Used Cooking Oil

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Neutralising Glycerine

      Originally posted by joe
      Also be alert but not alarmed (potassium phosphate?!? )... you'll have the feds knocking on your door
      Isn't it Nitrates that are now controlled as Anti-Al Quaeda substances?
      Mazda's Secret Service motto: "Tell 'em nothing, charge 'em double".

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Neutralising Glycerine

        Sorry Joe, I didn't mean to alarm you, Let me try to put your mind at rest. Regarding the BOOM issue, I think you're confusing the pure metal potassium (and sodium) with the compound potassium hydroxide (KOH). These pure metals react violently with water. Or maybe your thinking of potassium nitrate (saltpeter) which is a component used in gun powder and fireworks.

        Yes, you're right the glycerine could be composted directly after methanol recovery. But remember it is still highly caustic, most of the KOH or NaOH you put in the original reaction remains in the glycerine (except for a small amount which converted into soap). This is the function of a catalyst, to facilitate a reaction, but not take part in it.

        I could neutralise the KOH in the glycerine with more readily available acids such as vinegar, citric acid or pool acid (hydrochloric) but it seems such a waste of the valuable potential fertilizer potassium phosphate. The acid-base reaction of KOH + H3PO4 (phosphoric acid) seems an elegant solution.
        Maybe Neutral's out there watching and may like to comment.

        Here's the result of a little bit of googling from:
        http://scifun.chem.wisc.edu/chemweek/H3PO4/H3PO4.html

        "Phosphoric acid, H3PO4. Most production (about 80%) is used in the production of agricultural fertilizers, with the remainder being used for detergent additives (about 10%), cleaners, insecticide production, and cattle feed additives.
        Phosphoric acid is used primarily in the manufacture of fertilizers, detergents, and pharmaceuticals. In the steel industry, it is used to clean and rust-proof the product. It is also used as a flavoring agent in carbonated beverages (read the ingredients list on a can of Coca-Cola), beer, jams and jellies, and cheeses. In foods, phosphoric acid provides a tart, acidic flavor.
        In the manufacture of detergents, phosphoric acid is used to produce water softeners.
        Most phosphoric acid is used in the production of fertilizers. Phosphorus is one of the elements essential for plant growth. Organic phosphates are the compounds which provide the energy for most of the chemical reactions that occur in living cells. Therefore, enriching soils with phosphate fertilizers enhances plant growth".


        I might add this is not my idea, there's a page on the (dare I mention it) 'Journey to Forever' website describing how to do it:
        http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_glycsep.html

        It may be the case that's it's uneconomic to use phosphoric acid, that's why I was asking if anyone knew where to buy the industrial grade stuff. I know I can buy it from lab chemical suppliers but they sell the pure stuff at incredible prices. Hope that helps explain the reasoning behind my request.
        geewizztoo
        Senior Member
        Last edited by geewizztoo; 3 February 2006, 11:08 AM.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Neutralising Glycerine

          HI wizzo,
          You can get phosphoric acid at $400/MT. And the fertilizer you make sells for up to $2500/MT.
          liquidgold
          Junior Member
          Last edited by liquidgold; 3 February 2006, 01:48 PM.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Neutralising Glycerine

            Just to set your minds at rest Phosphoric acid is quite safe to use if your careful ie use gloves, but be aware that it is used in drug labs so purchase may attract attention.

            It works very well, if I had a digital camera I would show you just how well. It seperates nicely into three layers, a salt (potassium phosphate - fertiliser) acidified glycerine layer and a FFA layer.

            I will try and borrow a camera to post piccies.

            Matt
            Biodiesel Bandit

            Landcruiser '98 80 series B100.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Neutralising Glycerine

              Thanks Matt and Liquidgold that's great, but where do you get the stuff?

              Matt, like this? (picture copied from JTF website)
              geewizztoo
              Senior Member
              Last edited by geewizztoo; 3 February 2006, 02:51 PM. Reason: Photo added

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Neutralising Glycerine

                Any industrial cleaning / chemical house. I know of one here in Brisbane but I am sure there will be one on Sydney.

                For an experiment use HCl (hydrochloric acid), you will end up with Potassium Chloride, a salt. The Glycerine layer will be acidified with HCL and the FFA will seperate easily.

                Get a litre of you byproduct and add upto or exceeding 100ml of HCL, be careful with it as it fumes badly, add a bit and stir and watch it will happen before your eyes.

                Matt
                Biodiesel Bandit

                Landcruiser '98 80 series B100.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Neutralising Glycerine

                  Bingo! Thanks again Matt, I've found some..... and I'm embarrassed to say it's the same place I buy my KOH - Kleenco Just didn't think to ask as they sell mostly pool chemicals. $4/kg, bring your own container.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Neutralising Glycerine

                    Yeah like I said limited experience. Good to see you know what your talking about. Its clear I dont. :-)

                    Joe

                    Originally posted by geewizztoo
                    Sorry Joe, I didn't mean to alarm you, Let me try to put your mind at rest. Regarding the BOOM issue, I think you're confusing the pure metal potassium (and sodium) with the compound potassium hydroxide (KOH). These pure metals react violently with water. Or maybe your thinking of potassium nitrate (saltpeter) which is a component used in gun powder and fireworks.

                    Yes, you're right the glycerine could be composted directly after methanol recovery. But remember it is still highly caustic, most of the KOH or NaOH you put in the original reaction remains in the glycerine (except for a small amount which converted into soap). This is the function of a catalyst, to facilitate a reaction, but not take part in it.

                    I could neutralise the KOH in the glycerine with more readily available acids such as vinegar, citric acid or pool acid (hydrochloric) but it seems such a waste of the valuable potential fertilizer potassium phosphate. The acid-base reaction of KOH + H3PO4 (phosphoric acid) seems an elegant solution.
                    Maybe Neutral's out there watching and may like to comment.

                    Here's the result of a little bit of googling from:
                    http://scifun.chem.wisc.edu/chemweek/H3PO4/H3PO4.html

                    "Phosphoric acid, H3PO4. Most production (about 80%) is used in the production of agricultural fertilizers, with the remainder being used for detergent additives (about 10%), cleaners, insecticide production, and cattle feed additives.
                    Phosphoric acid is used primarily in the manufacture of fertilizers, detergents, and pharmaceuticals. In the steel industry, it is used to clean and rust-proof the product. It is also used as a flavoring agent in carbonated beverages (read the ingredients list on a can of Coca-Cola), beer, jams and jellies, and cheeses. In foods, phosphoric acid provides a tart, acidic flavor.
                    In the manufacture of detergents, phosphoric acid is used to produce water softeners.
                    Most phosphoric acid is used in the production of fertilizers. Phosphorus is one of the elements essential for plant growth. Organic phosphates are the compounds which provide the energy for most of the chemical reactions that occur in living cells. Therefore, enriching soils with phosphate fertilizers enhances plant growth".


                    I might add this is not my idea, there's a page on the (dare I mention it) 'Journey to Forever' website describing how to do it:
                    http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_glycsep.html

                    It may be the case that's it's uneconomic to use phosphoric acid, that's why I was asking if anyone knew where to buy the industrial grade stuff. I know I can buy it from lab chemical suppliers but they sell the pure stuff at incredible prices. Hope that helps explain the reasoning behind my request.
                    Joe Morgan
                    Brisbane Biodiesel Site Admin
                    http://www.brisbanebiodiesel.com

                    Searching tips using Google - SVO Dual tank systems
                    SVO, Common Rail and Direct Injection - Vehicles converted to Used Cooking Oil

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Neutralising Glycerine

                      Yes mine is like these photos from JTF but the salts layer is very small / fine the glycerine / FFA layers are about 50/50.

                      These photos are a bit strange really, proportions seem odd but then agian I am no expert.

                      Matt
                      Biodiesel Bandit

                      Landcruiser '98 80 series B100.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Neutralising Glycerine

                        Matt,
                        Stuff on the JTF can be a 'bit strange' in places. These two jars were comparing the ratios from the by product of the straight base process with the acid/base.
                        Please post photos of your tests when you get the chance.
                        Cheers

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Neutralising Glycerine

                          they've been giving JTF heaps of stick at the infopop.cc and biodieselnow.com sites. Something about using an old mix master to mix the ingredients. You know sparky old electric engine and methanol fumes...

                          They really hate em over there. They seem to prefer the "World Famous Dr Pepper patent pending" method. Most of my tests where done using this method.

                          Joe
                          Joe Morgan
                          Brisbane Biodiesel Site Admin
                          http://www.brisbanebiodiesel.com

                          Searching tips using Google - SVO Dual tank systems
                          SVO, Common Rail and Direct Injection - Vehicles converted to Used Cooking Oil

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Neutralising Glycerine

                            Geewizztoo, now firstly how long have you had the 405SRDT, my sister sold a beautiful burgundy / maroon wagin about 4 years back of this vintage, the buyer got a bargain.

                            My jar is nowhere near as clear as these but photograhy is an artform in itself. I will get a camera and post mine up. Full daylight will help ut will liquify the FFA layer which solidifies in winter (its been sitting round for a while (2 years now).

                            Now you have pointied out the difference I understand what they represent. I cannot remember if my sample predates my acid base which I do all the time now by rote, its so predictable thankfully (not as JTF put it though, you MUST titrate post acid stage plus a few other small meaures) and find that the FFA portion on the right hand is a bit low on FFA, so this with respect to the salt layer, it leads me to think my sample was from a base catalysed reaction, but still the proportions are odd.

                            Matt
                            With a Peugeot 307HDi (and a 20 year old 205GTi to boot) despite the Toyota avatar.
                            Biodiesel Bandit

                            Landcruiser '98 80 series B100.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Neutralising Glycerine

                              Hi Matt, I gave this a go at the weekend using your proportions (100ml H3PO4 to 1000ml by product) it worked beautifully. I'll post a photo later. The ratios of the separated layers appear similar to the right jar in the JTF photo, which is a bit odd as this is supposed to be the acid/base by product...oh well.

                              I try a few more tests to optimise the quantity of acid, might even try a titration to determine amount.

                              By the way, I've owned the Pug for about 6 months. It's been great so far.

                              Why do you use acid/base method, is your feedstock high in FFA?

                              Comment

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