Words of warning

[darren leonadas Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close darren leonadas]

I Am starting this thread because i would like to know of any scarey stuff others have experienced so as to promote some basic policy of OH&S.

Boiling Meth & Hot weather
At our last reaction meet of the Melbourne club i had a frightening experience i had not seen before and it frightened the **** out of us.
I was outside the shed in the open air where we always mix up our methoxide with one other club member who was measuring out the KOH as i poured it into the meth.
It was a fuckin' hot day, about 43c, and we were in the direct sunlight during the recent melbourne heatwave and most of victoria was on fire. That day I think emergency services were fighting on five different bushfire fronts in the state of Victoria.
I added the first 800grams of KOH into a 25lt plastic container of meth, and did usual spin shake, and as usual the plakky container swelled up and bloated, so i released a little pressure and continued. I then added the next 800grams or so of KOH, and repeated the process, but this time the plakky drum bloated like it was going to explode. I released the lid and suddenly the lid blew off and the whole container of methoxide erupted like a volcano emptying half a 25lt container as vapour. We couldn't stop it, and there was nothing we could do but watch the meth boiling violently.
Luckily one of our members inside the shed, an experienced firery who works for the MFB, jumped into action and exstinguished everything in the shed that resembled a naked flame, (gas burners etc) and shut down all exposed electric motors.
Excuse my language but it was fuckin' frightening.
We laugh about it now but we could have set inner city Melbourne alight.
So the moral to the story is on a hot day add your KOH very slowly and in small doses, and try to find a little shade, but keep it outdoors.
Cheers, Darren.

Please add to this thread any other experiences which can add to our OH&S policy.

[geewizztoo Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close geewizztoo]

Re: Words of warning

Yes, I agree Darren. I too have noticed alarming temperature rises with summer methoxide mixing. I mix mine in 4L lots using empty & cleaned 5L engine oil containers. These fit nicely inside a 10L size bucket with a little water to keep cool whilst the KOH is dissolving.

I read that someone on the Infopop site actually melted through the bottom of his polyethylene methoxide mixing container.

By the way, 1600g of KOH in 25L methanol? That must be some pretty high FFA oil you're processing. I use only 800g in 20L meth.

Glad to hear no one got hurt.

This also reminds me of something I've been meaning to say for a while; In the 'Sticky' called BioDiesel Basics is says to heat the methanol to 55C before adding the NaOH or KOH. This may be necessary for very small quantities (<1L) when you want to dissolve the catalyst quickly, but it is potentially dangerous for larger production batches as Darren has highlighted. Even in cool weather the exothermic reaction of the caustic in the methanol generates sufficient heat to dissolve it.

[darren leonadas Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close darren leonadas]

Re: Words of warning

This also reminds me of something I've been meaning to say for a while; In the 'Sticky' called BioDiesel Basics is says to heat the methanol to 55C before adding the NaOH or KOH. This may be necessary for very small quantities (<1L) when you want to dissolve the catalyst quickly, but it is potentially dangerous for larger production batches as Darren has highlighted. Even in cool weather the exothermic reaction of the caustic in the methanol generates sufficient heat to dissolve it.

This heating Meth is just crazy!!!!!! Is Sticky trying to get locked up as a tewowist.
Heating isopropyl for an acurate titration - OK- worth the risk as you are only heating up 50ml. and only do this in a microwave set to stun. But heating meth!!??, As geewizzo says the dissolving of an alkaline into an alcahol is exothermic and on the day mentioned above, the energy from the exothermic reaction took the meth from an ambiant temp of 43c to well over boiling point of meth. Even on a cold winter melbourne day in a frozen metal shed the meth gets toasty warm.
And as far as hurrying up the disolving of the solution, impatiance and trying to do three reactions in 4 hours is exactly what almost put us in the Nicki Lauder club.

Yes, geewizz, the oil titrated to a value of 5. CRAP from a restaurant i would'nt eat at.

[Robert Administrator Find all posts View Profile Close Robert]

Re: Words of warning

Good point about the Biodiesel Basics thread - Joe is the author of this, and he may want to review and edit it according to your comments in here. Let's put the right (and safe) info out there, we don't want anyone burning their houses down, or blowing themselves up !
Joe wrote up a bunch of stuff that was useful, so I made it "sticky" (always appears at the top of the list). If anyone else would like to write anything like this, or correct anything that is up there, please let me know, so I can help make it easily findable/accessable.

[Terry Syd Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Terry Syd]

Re: Words of warning

Maybe heat the oil to 55C, but not the methanol. It will eventually dissolve no matter what the heat of the methanol is.

I first ran into this phenomena when I was mixing up some methoxide on a hot day. I only had about half of the methanol I needed for the batch. I intended to mix up ALL the NaOH with the first half and add the second half of the methanol when I got it out of the new drum.

I dumped in the NaOH and it slowly started to bubble, then BUBBLE, big time BUBBLE, the gases were coming out of the container like a witch's brew. I got the last half of methanol and dumped it in, that cooled it down.

This technique has been used to help mixing when using cold methanol. You get all the methanol ready, but only use a small amount initally. As the methanol heats up with all the catalyst, you keep adding methanol to keep it from boiling.

This is not a technique for beginners.

[darren leonadas Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close darren leonadas]

Re: Words of warning

Cheers Terry for adding to this thread,. Since writing this thread i have been thinking about refrigerating Meth. Then making the methoxide solution with refrigerated Meth..
The thought came to me while drinking frozen vodka,, which has no aroma, no detectable vapour.
Please add your thoughts on frozen meth Terry.

Anybody else got anything to say about OH&S..??

[Terry Syd Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Terry Syd]

Re: Words of warning

I've never had to refrigerate methanol. When I had to use hot methanol to make a batch, I would just add the caustic at a slower rate. Put a little in, give it a stir, wait a bit, add some more. That way I could avoid the localised heating from a big dose of caustic.

Methanol boils at 64.5C. If you can keep the methanol under that temperature it won't boil.

When its really cold the caustic will be very slow to dissolve, however you can make up methoxide overnight. Put the methanol and caustic in a carboy and let the caustic slowly dissolve while you do other things.

Many people think you have to have "fresh" methoxide, that is, that it must be made up just before you use it. However, you can make up methoxide and keep it for months and it will work just fine. You just have to keep it in a closed container. Both the methanol and the caustic are hydroscopic, that is they love to suck moisture from the air.

[Toyoturbo Biofuels Forum Newbie Find all posts View Profile Close Toyoturbo]

Re: Words of warning

Heya Guys
Whilst i am new here and havn't made a single drop of BIO yet (tho i intend to once i figure it out) let me tell u summit about what you are playing with.
Years ago i was asked to use caustic soda with water for a cleaning job i was given no instructions on what to do just a container of caustic soda a plastic bucket and a source of water.
To cut a painfull memory short i put a small amount of water in the bucket with the aim of disolving the caustic and adding more water after.
I was unaware of the chemical reaction the could be created by doing this and i poured a large quantity into a small amount of water.It was only seconds before the reaction caused an eruption that in short left me totaly blind for weeks and and caused so much damage to the area i was in that all electrical wiring had to be replaced. My clothes were peppered with holes and i also had a few bald patches where hair was.
I survived the ordeal with only the loss of vision in one eye the other thankfully recovered. What i did was stupid however what my superior did was unforgivable (failed to educate before using a chemical).
Safety instructions are there for a reason take heed of them because what i mixed and what you guys are playing with are miles appart.
Methanol and Caustic has the potential to do far more damage to you if it doesn't kill you. I cringe at the thought of ppl laughing about a mistake like that trust me when someone gets hurt or killed its no laughing matter.
So dont be an ass and think u can reinvent the wheel stay with the formula and be bloody careful or u may well end up like me or worse.

[darren leonadas Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close darren leonadas]

Re: Words of warning

WOW!! !! !!!
Yep! I'm with ya"on the Oh&S issues, thats why i started this thread and am stoked with the reply.
You Should hear the "burned down shed" stories! , but only first hand stories please! In the ethos of promoting more aware OH&S.
daz.

[joe Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close joe]

Re: Words of warning

Heya Guys
Whilst i am new here and havn't made a single drop of BIO yet (tho i intend to once i figure it out) let me tell u summit about what you are playing with.
Years ago i was asked to use caustic soda with water for a cleaning job i was given no instructions on what to do just a container of caustic soda a plastic bucket and a source of water.
To cut a painfull memory short i put a small amount of water in the bucket with the aim of disolving the caustic and adding more water after.
I was unaware of the chemical reaction the could be created by doing this and i poured a large quantity into a small amount of water.It was only seconds before the reaction caused an eruption that in short left me totaly blind for weeks and and caused so much damage to the area i was in that all electrical wiring had to be replaced. My clothes were peppered with holes and i also had a few bald patches where hair was.
I survived the ordeal with only the loss of vision in one eye the other thankfully recovered. What i did was stupid however what my superior did was unforgivable (failed to educate before using a chemical).
Safety instructions are there for a reason take heed of them because what i mixed and what you guys are playing with are miles appart.
Methanol and Caustic has the potential to do far more damage to you if it doesn't kill you. I cringe at the thought of ppl laughing about a mistake like that trust me when someone gets hurt or killed its no laughing matter.
So dont be an ass and think u can reinvent the wheel stay with the formula and be bloody careful or u may well end up like me or worse.

Did you sue your boss?

[Toyoturbo Biofuels Forum Newbie Find all posts View Profile Close Toyoturbo]

Re: Words of warning

Was a long time ago b4 OH&S was as practiced as now and was also in the services who are renowned for not giving a damn about safety and OH&S issues. So given that what do u recon lol.