Biodiesel Lubricity

[isuzurover Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close isuzurover]

Are there any specs on here for biodiesel lubricity??? Especially in comparison to diesel.

Over here in Germany, biodiesel is available at servos, but there is no legally binding standard. There is a DIN norm for Biodiesel, but AFAIK it is only a reccommendation, not legally binding.

The reason I am asking, is a colleague's father has his 2003 2.0TDCi Ford Mondeo in for repair - the workshop says that the injector pump is damaged and needs replacing - due to running on biodiesel??? He has never used biodiesel, so either (a) there is a pump fault unrelated to the fuel, (b) he has received crappy diesel, or (c) ???

The manual for the car says it should not be run on biodiesel. So my real question is - is the lubricity of biodiesel really different enough to normal diesel that it could kill an injector pump in 80000km???

[Terry Syd Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Terry Syd]

Re: Biodiesel Lubricity

Typical, blame biodiesel even when biodiesel hasn't been used!

It sounds like he has had some sort of mechanical failure related to excessive pressure rather than an excessive wearing of parts due to lack of lubricity.

The lubricity of biodiesel is dependent upon both the base oil and the alcohol that was used in the process. Although there are differences it only takes 2% biodiesel to return all the lubricity to ultra low-sulfur diesel.

I read a report one time of a fellow in the US that was using a low-sulfur diesel in his truck. The injector pump was too hot to keep his hand on it. He put in a bucket of biodiesel in the fuel tank and a few minutes later the pump had cooled down enough that he could keep his hand on the pump.

Here is a link to an article I wrote on lubricity some years ago.

http://www.sydneybiodiesel.com/content/view/32/9/

[Matt Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Matt]

Re: Biodiesel Lubricity

Lubricity is not really the issue, its important to have it but the real issue is the fuel viscosity and its quality.

Viscosity is important since its is this factor that determines how the pump behaves with the type of fuel it is using. Biodiesel may be similar depending on the feedstock but I will point out that it maintains its viscosity over the temperature range the pump works at far better than mineral diesel.

Lubricity only affects wear and as it was said 2% is enough to completely replace the loss of all the sulphur in the fuel. Use B20 and be far better off, B100 the lubricity goes off the scale of measurement in the article I saw.

Big proviso here is the biodeisel MUST be washed and be of a high quality, bad fuel gives trouble all the time. Corrosion, blockages, breakages etc etc

Matt

[joe Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close joe]

Re: Biodiesel Lubricity

Big proviso here is the biodeisel MUST be washed and be of a high quality, bad fuel gives trouble all the time. Corrosion, blockages, breakages etc etc

Matt

Hi Matt I agreed with every thing you said in your post until I got to the last line which I've quoted above.

Bad fuel gives trouble all the time....Agree whole heartedly, but are you inferring that unwashed biodiesel is not of high quality and is a bad fuel. Can you give some substance to your claims that it causes Corrosion, blockages and breakages. Also what is your definition of high quality. Are we talking about ASTM standards? If so why are the small time producers even bothering to produce if if they cant test it or even hope to attain it?

I have spoken with user who choose not to wash who have done more than 100 000k each in a variety of vehicles for greater than 5 years who say they have never had fuel based problems those listed above.

Another point to remember is that SVO isn't washed.

Cheers
Joe

[Matt Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Matt]

Re: Biodiesel Lubricity

Hi Joe, no I am not inferring anything, but the buyer beware.

Unwashed bio will have things in it that may cause problems. I personally would not run unwashed bio in my common rail Peugeot for instance. I have heard anecdotal advice that one of these has already leaked at its high pressure pumps seals causing the timing belt to slip and you know what happens next. It was runnign biodiesel supposedly (lets face it it had didn't it?)

Corrosion also with alloy parts in injection pumps (IP) is an issue too. Vince Jones recently said (ATA Renew magazine) that his pump had pitting caused by water going to steam under the pressure of the IP. I know that water will not boil / flash to steam in these conditions (and would like to argue this with Cooma Diesel and anyone else too) and I can only put the idea that he may not have washed well enough leaving caustic etc in the fuel. I personally will not know unless I either see my own (Toyota) IP if I was to use unwashed fuel or see a controlled test. All other conditions are out of my control.

SVO/UCO is another matter entirely, it should be dried, filtered very well and heated sufficiently before use and is a good fuel. I personally would start and shut down on bio.

Let me put it this way, my vehicles are worth a lot of money, despite my dislike for the petroleum industry they make a quality product with tight controls. I philosophically disagree with some of their practices but they do put out controlled products. Why would I want to put anything less than good quality fuel into my engine, with the possibility of extra maintenace (already got that) and costs (avoiding that so far).

Home made biodiesel can and does meet these criteria, I am not talking any standards based measurements but simple quality control. There will be those who make partially reacted fuel with high levels of triglycerides which may cause coking, all for the sake of lowering costs, good on them, personally I do not want to risk it, thats all. Minimise di and mono glycerides and maximise the methylesters. the 2 or 3% unreated components (I hope) that I get are not enough to cause trouble. 30,40 or 50% may be. Its not up to me to stop them, just advise the newcomers, that's all. Without testing its really all conjecture anyway.

Matt

[Matt Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Matt]

Re: Biodiesel Lubricity

Oh I forgot to answer all your questions and that is discourteous,

Corrosion, its my porposition that this is what Vince Jones had in his injecion pump as mentioned in the ATA renew magazine Jan 06.

Blockages, we know that glycerine can block filters, aside from the mineral; residue, I know that one personally. Aside from the varnish and tar there can be dirt as well, I know my gross filter was caked in it after the bio cleaned it out of suspension on the sides of the tank, needless to say I would eat off the inside of my fuel tank now!

Breakages, well pumps were made for a purpose, change their design paramaters my using UCO perhaps or porrly convereted bio and see what happens.


My point of view only,
Matt

[isuzurover Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close isuzurover]

Re: Biodiesel Lubricity

Thanks for the replys - very informative.

In searching around on the internet, I found some interesting info - In summary:
Commercially produced diesel in the US, Canada, and Switzerland has very poor lubricity.

Commercially produced/sold biodiesel in Austria is not washed (at least some of it).

The injector pump in question may have problems with the case hardening flaking off (in a similar way to early Bosch VE pumps).

[liquidgold Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close liquidgold]

Re: Biodiesel Lubricity

Hi Izuzurover,
What fault of the pump has caused the pump to stop working? When I changed a pump once it was visibly obvious what was wrong as a rubber seal had worn and split (this was not a diesel car).

If Biodiesel (B100) meeting the current European standard was used in a Ford Mondeo that was driven in Europe (EU memeber states) "it would be warrantied" if its not in the car manual the manual must contain out of date information or reference a lower standard. Remember nearby in France all the Diesel contains 5% Biodiesel, and Europe is following. How legally binding things are is very debatable and something that requires alot of reference material as well as court orders. I did read that the Mondeo was run on normal Diesel just attemping to work out why they would have made reference to Biodiesel in the first place.

In Australia the standard reflects B20 which is in correalation with the US. So to fill her up with B20 in Australia would be fine as far as manufacturers warranties were concerned.

At all times show respect when visiting repairers and do not question them, contact the Car manufacturer and request their written response to Biodiesel usage then get this information checked with a Biodiesel Authority. Having worked in Warranty departments before explaining things to customers does not nessesarily imply anything and I would normally refer them to the manufacturer by the way of a phone number.

****All information above must be varified with appropriate organisations to which the information refers to*****

[isuzurover Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close isuzurover]

Re: Biodiesel Lubricity

Hi Izuzurover,
What fault of the pump has caused the pump to stop working? When I changed a pump once it was visibly obvious what was wrong as a rubber seal had worn and split (this was not a diesel car).

AFAIK there were metal fines in the pump - which in my experience are either due to poor lubrication or case hardening problems (same as early models of Bosch VE pump). IT IS NOT MY CAR - I am just helping out a friend.

If Biodiesel (B100) meeting the current European standard was used in a Ford Mondeo that was driven in Europe (EU memeber states) "it would be warrantied" if its not in the car manual the manual must contain out of date information or reference a lower standard. Remember nearby in France all the Diesel contains 5% Biodiesel, and Europe is following. How legally binding things are is very debatable and something that requires alot of reference material as well as court orders. I did read that the Mondeo was run on normal Diesel just attemping to work out why they would have made reference to Biodiesel in the first place.

The car in question is a 2003 model and is out of warranty. The manual specifically states that biodiesel should not be used.

Germany also uses 5% rapeseed oil in normal diesel, like France. AFAIK it is used in all countries that have introduced ULSD.

There is a DIN norm (german standard) for biodiesel, but AFAIK it is not legally binding. Service stations that produce B100 to this norm can put up signs at the pumps saying their fuel adheres to the DIN norm, but not all do.

At all times show respect when visiting repairers and do not question them,

Was this really necessary

[Terry Syd Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Terry Syd]

Re: Biodiesel Lubricity

Reading back over this thread I noticed comments about corrosion. I have only seen one report on injector corrosion and that was a Bosch report on using SVO.

I would expect that the SVO (canola oil in this case) would have a small amount of FFAs in it. Of course, UCO would have even more FFAs.

Acid and water can create corrosion (rust) on the steel components. I am informed that an alkaline environment will not create rust on steel components. The close tolerance steel components are the ones you want to protect. If an aluminiun housing gets a bit of corrosion, so what if the corrosion does not affect any metering function.

There have been millions of kilometers run on unwashed biodiesel without problems (other than filter clogging). I am still not aware of any authoritive report that indicates that the alkalinity of unwashed biodiesel creates corrosion of steel components. If anyone knows of one, please let us know.