PDA

View Full Version : Heating CAV filters?



W123 x 2
2nd January 2007, 12:04 PM
Hi and a well oiled new year,

Have seen and/or read about various coolant heated CAV filters and seen a 12volt electrical wrap type element, both types insulated and not. But what about a glow plug into one of the spare ports (immersed in the oil) of the alloy head of the CAV ? It could have a thermoswitch tacked on as well. Has this been done before?

Why do I want one? because I am trying to run a single tank WVO system and can't wait for the FPHE to get up to temp - need to get it hot, fast. Also running wire around a zero space engine bay is a heck of a lot easier than water hose. It should be relatively cheap and easy to do to Y/N??

The only real problem I see is the extra draw on the alternator at start up before the HE kicks in. But is the head of the CAV shaped in a special way to facilitate the flow of oil? And would a GP inserted affect this? It seems to me that the slots in the filter element create the flow.

Anyway if this has all been done before in a thread I haven't found please point me there, don't want to reinvent the wheel!!

Cheerio, Michael

W123 x 2
2nd January 2007, 03:49 PM
Thanks for the reply David, and sorry I should have elaborated. The idea of a glow plug heated (GPH) CAV is not stand alone. My system is as follows: tank - in-line GPH - CAV - lift pump - FPHE - stock filter - in-line GPH - IP - injection line heaters. So you see I do have a current draw issue and yes resolvable with a new alternator (just waiting 'til this one dies). All electric heaters can be switched independently to lessen the draw at start up. They also incorporate thermoswitches that reduce current draw once the engine and FPHE are up to temp. Am also planning to add a mains block heater to have engine warm for start up (on timer to lessen power consumption).

Yes I plan to run a blend in winter but am still researching what to add and why (apart from reducing viscosity). Kero, dino diesel, bio diesel, paint thinners, petrol ?? just don't know the whys and wherefors.

Anyway I just thought that there must be others out there that would appreciate a heated fuel filter, so why not marry a CAV with an in-line GPH and kill two birds with one stone? The length of glow plug issue is easily resolved with a machined GP adaptor, only the tip needs to be immersed in the oil. The machined adaptor would provide good thermocoupling and a 24v glow plug would reduce or eliminate burn out.

So back to the question: anyone out there done this? Just seems logical to me.

cheerio, Michael

Vegiecars
4th January 2007, 10:36 PM
Hi Michael - the answer is yes - and I sell a kit including plug, thermostat, relay, switch and loom. Don't expect the cav to get so hot that you can do without heating before the IP. The thermostat turns off at 60 deg and on again at 40, so you'll find that it will draw quite a bit of power at start up and then switch off when the engine bay gets hot.

I developed this kit because I too run a no purge system with the Cav agglomerating fuel filter and found that it would plug on cold mornings. It tends to warm up fairly quickly 2 minutes or so after starting.

I switch on the Cav heater after starting as I also run an inline fuel heater before the IP and injector line heaters (which I also sell as a kit).

These products are all available on my site VegieCars (http://Vegiecars.com)

Regards
Marcus

Fitian
4th January 2007, 11:23 PM
I am actually using a twin coil Heater - One coil is before the CAV filter and the other coil is after the valve selector and before the IP. This works magic in no time with no electrical involvement. You'd be too brave to touch any part of the CAV.

Our friend David had a look at my car and noticed it too.

Running a single tank is a different to my set up. I know for sure that if something went wrong with my wiring, I can always go back to my bio tank while with a single tank I will cry over it and it won't work.

Cheers,

Fitian

gonzalo
5th January 2007, 02:47 AM
Hello Fitian,

Is your filter element coping well with the hot oil? If so, is the element Delphi 296, Fleeguard FF167A or Ryco R2132P?

I am now looking into buying one of those CAV filters but want to be sure they work properly with hot oil (otherwise lifespan with cold oil before clogging is very short).

Kind Regards
gonzalo




I am actually using a twin coil Heater - One coil is before the CAV filter and the other coil is after the valve selector and before the IP. This works magic in no time with no electrical involvement. You'd be too brave to touch any part of the CAV.

Our friend David had a look at my car and noticed it too.

Running a single tank is a different to my set up. I know for sure that if something went wrong with my wiring, I can always go back to my bio tank while with a single tank I will cry over it and it won't work.

Cheers,

Fitian

W123 x 2
5th January 2007, 07:31 AM
Hi Marcus,
Good to see someone is thinking! Tried your site and the 'products' button isn't working. I run a glow plug heater before the CAV but it switches off at 90 degrees C which means it's drawing all of the time. Yours is far better at 40 on 60 off and I'll modify the GP heater before the CAV accordingly. Could be tempted to buy your modified CAV for the GQ, what's it worth and can you post a pic here?

Hi Fitian, I've been thinking of putting a FPHE before the CAV in the 300D to solve the current draw issue and may still do this. The problem I have is I am in the process of converting a GQ patrol which has an aftermaket turbo. This leaves zero room under bonnet. The current draw issue is less of a problem with the GQ as it has a 70amp alternator, so may stick with a GP heater in or before the CAV.
One of the reasons I opted for a single tank setup was of it's simplicity - no switching on startup or shut down, no extra fuel lines, no extra tank, no pollack valve etc. All I had to solve was getting the fuel to the right viscosity. This involved heating and or blending. Summer no problems just heat the WVO and go (all my runs are 80km plus) in winter if I need to blend (after much research ) I'l run a kero blend 10-20%.
A single tank setup on the patrol was almost forced upon me due to the 130 litre long range tank and no spare room (7seater). But 130 L of WVO takes me over 1000k's for free :D

Cheers, Michael

gonzalo
7th January 2007, 04:14 AM
Hello Fitian,

Is the CAV filter coping well with hot oil? If so, is the element the Delphi 296, Fleetguard FF167A or the Ryco R2132P?

I am looking into adding one of these filters in my car but want to be sure they cope with hot oil. Aparently cold oil donīt flow too well through 10 microns.

Also, any issues with the hot oil and the solenoid valve? Mine has a label that says "40 degrees", so I placed it before the HE, which unfortunately increases the time to swap from diesel to veggie and vice versa.

Thanks in advance
gonzalo



I am actually using a twin coil Heater - One coil is before the CAV filter and the other coil is after the valve selector and before the IP. This works magic in no time with no electrical involvement. You'd be too brave to touch any part of the CAV.

Our friend David had a look at my car and noticed it too.

Running a single tank is a different to my set up. I know for sure that if something went wrong with my wiring, I can always go back to my bio tank while with a single tank I will cry over it and it won't work.

Cheers,

Fitian

Vegiecars
7th January 2007, 10:43 AM
Hi Gonzalo,
I use the Delphi 296 filters, which are I believe 5 microns. My oil is hot filtered to 5 microns, and I cold filter it under gravity before adding it to my fuel tank. This takes out the hard fats that may cause plugging at the filter. I heat the Cav head but only to around 60 deg C which allows the fuel to become thin enough to make it through the filter medium easily, and reduces the power required further down the line.

On a recent hot day here of 38 deg C, I drove for 2 hours through heavy traffic. My engine bay became very hot, and I measured the ambient temperature in the bay to be 85 dec C. The Cav unit was hot right through and measured 90 deg C. So the short of it is that the Cav must be made to handle these temperatures that are generated in an ordinary engine bay.

Many of my customers use the Cav without heating it at all, which really comes down to the quality of the oil that you are using and it's ambient temperature. I only have trouble on very cold mornings and I start on 100% WVO with no diesel back up. The system can be seen at my site, VegieCars (http://vegiecars.com)

Regards
Marcus

W123 x 2
7th January 2007, 11:14 AM
Hi Marcus,

I replied to this post earlier but the reply got sent to a moderator for "approval" and it hasn't appeared yet. Anyway it's good to see someone is thinking around the issues. I'm intersted in the GP heated CAV and tried to check out your site but the 'products' button is not working.

Gonzalo, Fitian had problems with the Delphi 296 cartridge on his CAV and switched to the Fleetguard and from memory this solved the problem of hot oil delaminating the cartridge and subsequent blockages (please correct me if wrong). My in line GP before the CAV turns off at 90 degrees C but the CAV filter body gets to about 65 C after 20 minutes. I run the Delphi 296 and so far (touch wood) I've not had an issue.

All of the paper cartridges have a nominal micron rating, this means that a 5 micron cartridge medium will vary from blocking 1 to about 30 microns, but the average is 5 microns. The 15 micron nominals will let particulate up to 60 micron through but will average 15 micron. So the bottom line is - prefilter to 5 micron or less. This will make your in line filters last much longer and help prevent blockages and fuel starvation issues.

You've probably heard of BD cleaning out tanks and lines causing blockages, well WVO does this too albeit not as aggressively. So pre warned means carrying spare fuel filters :).

Cheers, Michael

Fitian
7th January 2007, 01:37 PM
Hello Gonzalo,
I had no dramas with the hot oil getting in/out the CAV filter. In my setup the oil goes into the FPHE then a coil HE then the CAV and out to the Vavle selector. Both CAV and the Valve are working fine and I check them almost everyday. I am using fleetguard FF167a - it works fine too.

What brand vlave are you using? I ma using Pollak 6 ports.

Cheers,

Fitian


Hello Fitian,

Is the CAV filter coping well with hot oil? If so, is the element the Delphi 296, Fleetguard FF167A or the Ryco R2132P?

I am looking into adding one of these filters in my car but want to be sure they cope with hot oil. Aparently cold oil donīt flow too well through 10 microns.

Also, any issues with the hot oil and the solenoid valve? Mine has a label that says "40 degrees", so I placed it before the HE, which unfortunately increases the time to swap from diesel to veggie and vice versa.

Thanks in advance
gonzalo

Fitian
7th January 2007, 01:55 PM
Gonzalo, Fitian had problems with the Delphi 296 cartridge on his CAV and switched to the Fleetguard and from memory this solved the problem of hot oil delaminating the cartridge and subsequent blockages (please correct me if wrong). My in line GP before the CAV turns off at 90 degrees C but the CAV filter body gets to about 65 C after 20 minutes. I run the Delphi 296 and so far (touch wood) I've not had an issue.
Cheers, Michael

Dear Michael,

My problems with Delphi or other brand were not heat related I think. All I know is that I used them with the same setup and experienced fuel starvation. I switched to fleet guard and did not need to change it for long while now. I go through over 200 litres a week if this will make a difference to you.

At the end of the day you can run after all the fancy gear and end up getting what you can get from a simplers and cheaper setup. I see no point of heating the CAV filter when you can run hot oil through it from a coolant heater and put a foam cover on it to keep the heat.

Up to you of course.

Regards,

Fitian

Still learning

Vegiecars
7th January 2007, 02:57 PM
Hi Folks, this thread is moving along!

Thanks Michael, my site has a problem at the moment that should be resolved in the next couple of days, so please try again.

I agree with Fitan that heating the unit is not necessary if you are operating a 2 tank system, which allows enough time for your coolant to heat up and for the engine bay to heat up also.

Trying to get a no purge (http://www.vegiecars.com)system happening on a cold morning without the appropriate heating systems can be a real chore, and a danger to your engine and components, which is why electronic heating is highly useful. If you have a heat exchanger and 12volt systems that operate off a thermostat(s), they should all switch off after the first 15minutes or so, allowing plenty of power to recharge the battery(s).

The Cav being a finer rating (5 microns) and agglomerating (http://www.vegiecars.com) filter, helps to ensure the quality of the fuel that is getting to the engine. The issue with the other brands is that they don't agglomerate, leaving fine water particles in the fuel and allow larger particles through to the injector pump and injectors.


Regards
Marcus
Home (http://vegiecars)

Fitian
8th January 2007, 12:02 AM
Marcus,

I am a big fan of VW bettles. I see three of them at the top of your home page .. are they diesel version? I never heard of them in diesel. I thought they are out of place when I saw them on your web page but then again I thought maybe I do not know much about VW even when I owned one long ago.

Cheers,

Fitian

Vegiecars
8th January 2007, 09:57 AM
Hi Fitan, I guess your right. My web designer did that and I didn't really think about it.... but a diesel version was created. See the story here (http://www.ltv-vwc.org.uk/wheelspin/ws_aug-sept-2003/diesel-beetle.html).

We are going to change it at some point, it was following our Flower-Powered theme.

Regards
Marcus

Fitian
8th January 2007, 11:46 AM
How sad to know that this project fell into a back drawer and they never got to produce such a car.

Cheers,

Fitian

gonzalo
9th January 2007, 03:25 AM
Hello Fitian,

Thanks for the info. I think I am then installing one of those filters.

My valve is a Electrotaz, from Spain. I disassembled it the other day and it only consists on a spring loaded moveable piston with a rubber disk on each end to seal the ports. The magnet is external. I am assuming the disks can get damaged if I go beyond the specified temperature...?
If this happens I will install a Pollak.

Kind regards
gonzalo


Hello Gonzalo,
I had no dramas with the hot oil getting in/out the CAV filter. In my setup the oil goes into the FPHE then a coil HE then the CAV and out to the Vavle selector. Both CAV and the Valve are working fine and I check them almost everyday. I am using fleetguard FF167a - it works fine too.

What brand vlave are you using? I ma using Pollak 6 ports.

Cheers,

Fitian

Tim-HJ61
20th January 2007, 03:10 PM
Folks,

For what it's worth, Ryco have told me their CAV type filter is rated at 15 micron and tested to 80°C by them. We push them hotter than that without apparent problem.

Tim

Strawb
5th February 2007, 09:19 PM
Hello all,new to this site and forum.I have 4wd truck with a duel tank set up.Been running ok.Starts on normal diesel and switchs to wvo.Have been filtering the oil via a 5 micron bag filter.Was running a cav filter that was heated by the coolant water as is the oil tank.Have now fitted a in line heater that I made with 2 glow plugs,2 temp switches and a temp gauge near the motor.Have had to run with out a cav filter as it takes a lot longer to warm up than the electric unit.Bit of a risk even though the oil is already well filtered.Was thinking of making a small plate that fits between the glass bowl and the filter element of the cav unit.In this plate I was looking at fitting ethier one or two glow plugs.There is also a ceramic heater on eaby that could be fitted that would give a greater surface area.
Like the info on the different filter brands.I was also having cavatation issues with filters before I wrapped a water hose around the filter.
He Vegi cars I am only a few K`s away.
Cheers Strawb