Kerosene Supply

[Guest Close David]

I have been blending WVO with unleaded petrol and following the advise and favourable reports of others, I would like to try a Kero blend.

Today I went to about 15 selected servo's (selected for being older places that may still have a kero pump off to the side of the driveway) and managed to find 2 places selling Kero. (and 3 that had pumps not used in many years apparently)

The first place I found was selling kero for $2.30 a litre. I have a bit of an aversion to being ripped off so I passed on this particular opportunity.
The next place I found were selling it at $1.89 a litre. I bought 5L as I wanted some to do at least one 20% blend but I still feel this is an over the top price for what is essentially a low grade fuel/solvent and shouldn't have any tax on it either.

My last stop was the airport where the refuelers there were happy to sell me Avtur ( who the hell thought that was a better name to call the old Jet-A1 ??) for 127.50 CPL PLUS... gst.

163 a litre certainly is better than the other outlets I found which makes me think the prices I got for the Home heating version was even more of a rip off. I would imagine ( and certainly hope) that Aviation fuel is a lot higher quality and more expensive to produce than the stuff available in service stations and so the regular variety should be a lot cheaper and certainly not more expensive than more refined fuels like High octane unleaded.

I am wondering if anyone knows of any places in Sydney that have a better price on Kero?

Although I am happy with the unleaded/WVO blend, I would like to heat my fuel before it goes to the IP as a measure of extra insurance for the engine but I am wanting to avoid any vapour lock problems that could come from the unleaded boiling in the mix.

If anyone knows of any cheaper places to buy Kero or even any other non aromatic solvents like Turps, I would be most appreciative of any info.

[zigparacingtadpole Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close zigparacingtadpole]

Re: Kerosene Supply

My suggestion would be try a specialist fuel supplier. Not sure about Sydney but here in Adelaide we have a couple that specialise in the more exotic racing fuels and can usually source just about anything if given enough time, the price even seems to be reasonable (methanol at $1.20/l or cheaper in 200l quantities).

Hope that helps

Adam

"Revolution never comes with a warning!"

[otherside532 Member Find all posts View Profile Close otherside532]

Re: Kerosene Supply

Hi Dave.
When you sayou are blending with WVO, do you mean that you have a single tank system, or you have 2 tanks and still blend with the WVO?
I am curious
Regards
Geoff

[Guest Close David]

Re: Kerosene Supply

Hi Geoff,

At the moment I have only one fuel tank.

I settle my oil for a month or so, draw off the clear liquid from the top, filter it, put 4 litres of Unleaded ( or Kero) in a 20L drum, top it off with WVO and in the car it goes. This works out at a 20% unleaded/ 80% WVO blend.

My fuel system is stock with no heating although I would like to install a coolant/fuel heater for the oil as I am thinking it may have some benifits for the engine and possibly be easier on the IP.

The car runs fine although it does not start quite as easy as it does on straight bio. The car is not at all difficult to start, it just dosent fire as instantly as with straight bio. After it has run for about 15 seconds, it idles nicely and runs great.

[otherside532 Member Find all posts View Profile Close otherside532]

Re: Kerosene Supply

Hi Geoff,

At the moment I have only one fuel tank.

I settle my oil for a month or so, draw off the clear liquid from the top, filter it, put 4 litres of Unleaded ( or Kero) in a 20L drum, top it off with WVO and in the car it goes. This works out at a 20% unleaded/ 80% WVO blend.

My fuel system is stock with no heating although I would like to install a coolant/fuel heater for the oil as I am thinking it may have some benifits for the engine and possibly be easier on the IP.

The car runs fine although it does not start quite as easy as it does on straight bio. The car is not at all difficult to start, it just dosent fire as instantly as with straight bio. After it has run for about 15 seconds, it idles nicely and runs great.

Dear Dave,
Thanks for your reply. I am very intrigued by what you say.

I currently have a SSang Yong Mousso Ute that has a 2 tank conversion. As you are doubtless weel aware, it starts on standard diesel and then switches to WVO. I have 2 Toyota Hiace vans that I am aiming to get converted ASAP. I am also in the fortunate position of having moe WVO than I can currently use in the Mousso, so I have a dilemma. I have been reading here quite a few accounts of "blending" like you do but since my Toyotas are used in my passenger transport business, I have been very apprehensive about taking the plunge with the single tank/blending idea. I would love to do it, and am becoming more inclined to do so after what I have read. The big benefit is that it would enable me to use the WVO that I have. I have 2 "producing oil wells!" I get around 200 litres per week and I clean it all myself so I know it is good stuff.

I just did a calculation as follows. My Toyota holds 70 litres. Regular unleaded is NZ$1.40 per litre so it would cost around NZ$20.00 for 14 litres. That would give me 50 litres of WVO If I get 8km per ltre, it would do 560 km on a full tank for basically NZ$20.00. That works out at NZ$0.035 per km! Diesel is NZ$1.00 per litre, so it would cost NZ$70.00 to fill the tank with diesel. Assuming the 8km per litre, it would work out at NZ$0.125 per kilometre. Assuming only 5km per litre (350 km per 70 litres), the "blend" would work out to NZ$0.057 per km whereas "diesel" would be NZ$0.20 per litre. (Assuming my maths are correct!) The WVO costs me nothing from the chippies, all that it does cost is my time and a few bobs worth of electricity. OH, I did have to buy a hard hat due to low beams in the garage!!
The beauty of the Mousso and the 2 tank system is, of course, the longer the trip, the cheaper. I filled the Mousso up with 60 ltres of diesel at the end of October and didn't need any more diesel until the beginning of December. We did 1800 km on 60 litres of diesel, which worked out at the equivalent of 30 km per litre of diesel which is NZ$0.033 per litre. Not bad eh? I have done about 2300 km since filling it in December and the diesel tank is stiil almost half full! I reckon I should get over 3000 km on this tank, so you can see why I want to get my 2 Toyotas converted, and it will be a first in New Zealand.
Regards
Geoff. A/K/A otherside532

[Guest Close David]

Re: Kerosene Supply

Hi Geoff,

It would seem that blended WVO for you is a perfect solution to your fuel needs and would allow the profitability of your business to take a big jump.
One thing that is really in your favour is the fact you would only do 1 cold start a day and then your engine would be at or very near operating temperature till you finished work for the day.

My only concerns with blending ( which is probably my own insecurity and goes against everything I have read by the way) is that on cold starts there MAY be some deposits left in the cylinder. IF this occurred in your application, it is my belief that the period the engine would be cold enough for this to happen would be very short and the time the engine spent running hot would make sure those deposits were well and truly burnt off anyway.

You may like to test the blending for your own piece of mind in stages. For instance you could use 50% diesel, 40% wvo and 10% unleaded. Practically mix up some 20/80 blend and put it in your tank with the diesel in increasing amounts until you are happy it will work OK for you.

Having your engine hot all the time I believe will be a benefit because the blend will be heated by the engine and the oil thinned further. I have studied this Video, and based on my own experience and observations, fully agree with what is being said. If blending with unleaded, I would not benefit running a heat exchanger. I tried heating the fuel and on a couple of hot days experienced starting problems after letting the car sit. It is my belief this was the result of the fuel "heat soaking" which caused the petrol to boil out and create a vapour lock. Other people have reported this as well and since removing the fuel heating, I have experienced no trouble at all.

I find myself that when my engine is hot or has only been shut down for 2 hours or less, I have no trouble firing it up again without using the glow plugs on an unleaded blend.
Just last Night I made up a blend of 20% kero/80%wvo. I purged the unleaded blend out of the system and took the car for a 10KM drive. Apart from a more diesel like smell from the exhaust, I could not perceive any difference in the way the car went over that short distance. This morning I found the car somewhat harder to start than on the unleaded blend despite the weather being a little warmer than the last week or so. I'll try a few more starts before I make any firm conclusions however.

While I am working towards a 2 tank conversion mainly for flexibility than anything else, I think blending is by far the easiest and cheapest way to run a vehicle on WVO. If you have a search through the infopop forum you will see many people are doing it and have run up '000's of miles with no problem. I think in a lot of ways blending is somewhat looked down upon by some of the purists who perhaps go a bit overboard sometimes on the caution side of things.

The only problems I have read of with blending has been mixing WVO and Diesel. It would appear some diesel fuels, particularly those formulated for the colder parts of the US, can cause some waxes to drop out of the diesel and create filter blockage. The consensus is this never happens when blending with unleaded or Kero.

I think the best thing is to give it a go for yourself under your own conditions and see what you think!

[Hoops Biofuels Forum Newbie Find all posts View Profile Close Hoops]

Re: Kerosene Supply

Hi
Im just wondering why you dont use Jet a1. Was it the price or another reason
Thanks

[Guest Close David]

Re: Kerosene Supply

Hi Hoops,

I just started with unleaded because I read of people using it with success on vehicles the same as mine. Since I have started blending with unleaded, other people have suggested that kerosene may be better.

The main obstacle to using kero has been availability at servos (not to mention price) and I was unsure if the airport refulers would actually sell the stuff to me. A friend was stopped from buying Avgas for his high performace car a while back because of a directive that it could not be sold for automotive use because Avgas didn't have road tax in the price.

When I rang the airport they asked what I wanted it for and I lied and they agreed to sell it to me. I did make a mistake on the price and now I have realised this, the Avtur is about .20C a litre more expensive than petrol and still cheaper than making Bio.

I have only done about 30KM on a kero blend and so far all I have found is it appears to be harder to start than a blend of unleaded. I'll see how I go with the rest of the tank but If I can't see any benifits, I'll probably just go back to unleaded which is still going to be more convienent to obtain and slightly cheaper. As I want the easiest starts possible, unleaded is ahead in this area as well which may be a concern come winter.

[Tony From West Oz Vice Chairperson of WARFA Find all posts View Profile Close Tony From West Oz]

Re: Kerosene Supply

Hi Hoops,

I just started with unleaded because I read of people using it with success on vehicles the same as mine. Since I have started blending with unleaded, other people have suggested that kerosene may be better.

The main obstacle to using kero has been availability at servos (not to mention price) and I was unsure if the airport refulers would actually sell the stuff to me. A friend was stopped from buying Avgas for his high performace car a while back because of a directive that it could not be sold for automotive use because Avgas didn't have road tax in the price.

When I rang the airport they asked what I wanted it for and I lied and they agreed to sell it to me. I did make a mistake on the price and now I have realised this, the Avtur is about .20C a litre more expensive than petrol and still cheaper than making Bio.

I cannot understand why you feel that Avtur at $1.63 per litre is cheaper than making biodiesel art around $0.40 per litre (plus feedstock oil, electricity and labour).
Would you care to elaborate on your costs for making biodiesel and why you feel that it is dearer then Avtur??

I have only done about 30KM on a kero blend and so far all I have found is it appears to be harder to start than a blend of unleaded. I'll see how I go with the rest of the tank but If I can't see any benifits, I'll probably just go back to unleaded which is still going to be more convienent to obtain and slightly cheaper. As I want the easiest starts possible, unleaded is ahead in this area as well which may be a concern come winter.

otherside532,
You may have a different experience using a blend in your Toyota's than David has with his Mercedes. The Mercedes has an in-line IP , whereas Toyota use a rotary IP.

I started using veggie in a Mazda Capella 2.0 NA diesel, using a 2 tank conversion. Due to cross contamination of the diesel tank with veggie, I found that starting became harder and harder. I added more diesel to the tank and the starting problems eased. The Capella used a rotary IP similar to the one used by Toyota. I did not perform tests to determine the ratio vs starting difficulty, to quantify the blends at which engine cold starting was an issue, but you may find that you are not able to use any high % of oil in your diesel.

You may find it worthwhile to install a 2 tank conversion, with coolant temperature controlled change-over and a 'turbo timer' purge delay to run the engine on diesel at shut-down, ensuring a reliable start - every time.
The potential savings would far outweigh any conversion costs if these vehicles are in daily use travelling high mileage and staying warm all day.

[Guest Close David]

Re: Kerosene Supply

Hi Tony,

I'm not sure at all what you are talking about?
The thought never entered my head that using straight Avtur was cheaper than bio and re reading my previous posts, I can't understand as to how you came to the conclusion that I did.

Presently I am blending with unleaded at a 20/80% ratio. Following some comments I made on this, other people (Tilly for one I believe) suggested that Blending with Kero was a better option. Given that I respect Tilly's experience and suggstions, I went looking for a source of kero to experiment with and to investigate the price for an ongoing supply.

I don't currently make Bio myself but someone I know that has been for some time did the maths with me and the figures we came up with at the cost of meth and KOH in our area was that bio production cost was roughly about .30 to 32 Cpl. Oil costs us nothing and we calculate around .01Cpl for power which we include in the approx cost.

We did this calculation some time ago and have calculated in the increase in meth prices so I have taken this figure as the price of making ones own Bio.

With blending using unleaded at 20% and the fuel being around 1.20 for some time around my way, the cost of an unleaded blend would be .24CPL.
I made a mistake with the price of the avtur as I stated being .20C dearer than the unleaded at $1.40 CPL.
This would make a kero blend slightly dearer than the unleaded at .28CPL.

Either blend is cheaper than Bio but it was never my thought to run the car on Avtur, only to use it to cut the WVO instead of the unleaded I am using now.

If I take the figures you stated at .40 CPL for bio, the cost of bio would still be higher than blending with Avtur if it were $1.62 per litre which would work out at less than .32 Cpl for the blend as I figure it.

To me, either your figures or mine makes Bio more expensive than blending with Avtur or Petrol.

[Fitian Was here Find all posts View Profile Close Fitian]

Re: Kerosene Supply

David,

If I use 50/50 blend of wvo and kero. will I have trouble with cold starts? Will I still be called "Green" ?

Cheers,

Fitian

[Captain Echidna Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Captain Echidna]

Re: Kerosene Supply

Will you have harder starts? I have with my merc on 50/50 diesel/ veg oil, but mine also has trouble on biodiesel. (Ok dads biodiesel, perhaps other bio could be dryer or perhaps I think some more money is going to the diesel mechanic)

Will you be green? I guess if you are reducing your diesel usage by 50% you are getting better. Biodiesel would be better again (20% fossil with fossil methanol) if you are using renewable ethanol biodiesel, better again.
Scary of course the above still is probably better than a Toyota Prius. (if they make on with a biodiesel aproved diesel in it, you will see me line up for one, until then my merc is beter)

The twin tank setup is of course better, as any long trips will be using less fossil fuel.

Of course a bycycle has better emissions than all of the above.

[Fitian Was here Find all posts View Profile Close Fitian]

Re: Kerosene Supply

Chris,

You make me laugh

As you know I have two tanks setup and fill up main tank with bio. but I can do with some extra saving if blending will work. I know it's not much to save since I get my wvo very hot at no time so I hardly use bio. Last time I was to the petrol station for bio was last week of Nov. 06 and still half way full.

Cheers,

Fitian

[Tony From West Oz Vice Chairperson of WARFA Find all posts View Profile Close Tony From West Oz]

Re: Kerosene Supply

Hi Tony,

I'm not sure at all what you are talking about?
The thought never entered my head that using straight Avtur was cheaper than bio and re reading my previous posts, I can't understand as to how you came to the conclusion that I did.
SNIP

I did make a mistake on the price and now I have realised this, the Avtur is about .20C a litre more expensive than petrol and still cheaper than making Bio.

With blending using unleaded at 20% and the fuel being around 1.20 for some time around my way, the cost of an unleaded blend would be .24CPL.
I made a mistake with the price of the avtur as I stated being .20C dearer than the unleaded at $1.40 CPL.
This would make a kero blend slightly dearer than the unleaded at .28CPL.

Either blend is cheaper than Bio but it was never my thought to run the car on Avtur, only to use it to cut the WVO instead of the unleaded I am using now.
SNIP

To me, either your figures or mine makes Bio more expensive than blending with Avtur or Petrol.

Perhaps you can see why I thought that you were referring to the avtur (100%) was cheaper than biodiesel (B100). The statement I quoted did not discuss that a BLEND of avtur and WVO (V80) would be cheaper than biodiesel (B100).

Perhaps I misunderstood your intent, but I responded to what I interpreted from reading the post.

I now understand your meaning.

For the price of a heat exchanger you could run a straight V100 in the second tank and have no blending cost at all. You already have the 2 fuel tanks and the C/O valve, fuel lines, etc. If you do not already have the veggie fuel filter, that would only add around $50 to the conversion cost.

From then on, all of your long distance driving would be at the cost of your Used Cooking Oil. I can see that the conversion costs would be recouped rapidly.

Tony

[Guest Close David]

Re: Kerosene Supply

Hi Fitian,

Short answer is that I don't think you will have any trouble with your car and cold starts on Kero blend.
For the long answer......

I think there is a distinct difference between hard starting and the engine being slower to start on one fuel than another.

I know that in my car, starting is almost instant from cold with a hit of the glow plugs when I use Biodiesel. I also know that my car takes longer to start when using my usual blend of WVO and unleaded than on Bio. The blend doesn’t make the car hard to start per se, it just takes a couple of seconds more cranking but it starts the same every time and reliably.

As you would have felt yourself, after you get used to your car, as you start cranking the engine the stopwatch in your head starts counting and you pretty well know how long the engine normally takes to fire. It’s only when this time becomes excessive or erratic that I would say starting becomes hard.

So far my limited experiments with the Kero blend have shown that it causes the engine to be a little slower to fire than when using the unleaded blend. Again, the kero always seems to take the same amount of time to fire up and is no trouble to get started; it just takes a second or 2 longer than when starting on the unleaded blend. I have read countless reports of people saying their car takes longer to start on Bio than Diesel but they can start every time on bio and without any problems.

I think it is highly likely your car may start a lot quicker on any fuel than mine due to the fact it has done about 1/3rd less kilometers and has probably been a lot better looked after.
My suggestion would be to make up a kero blend and see how your car goes with it. I use 20% unleaded or Kero but I believe you can easily blend up to at least 50% Kero with WVO which may possibly make starting on this blend easier than starting on B100.

With your heated system, kero is definitely the blend of choice for your car as using Unleaded may (or may not) cause some trouble with vapor lock. (Especially since your HE’s are working so well now! )

So far the cheapest place I have found to get Kero is the airport which is actually Avtur and costs $1.40 per liter. The stuff I am currently using is the regular home heating kind of Kero and the though has crossed my mind that the avtur should be a much higher grade fuel and may have properties that would make starting on a blend made with it easier than with the domestic kero I am using now. I’ll have to get some Avtur and see if I can notice any difference.

If you do go to the airport to get some Avtur, don’t tell them you are going to use it in your vehicle. There is a possibility they may not sell it to you because of the road tax issue. When I rang a supplier about Avtur, the first thing they asked me was what I wanted it for. I told them a very simple lie that seemed to satisfy them and they were happy to supply me.

As for the Green issue, you would be using a renewable fuel with virtually the same amount of fossil fuel component as B100, I can’t see why you wouldn’t be Green. Lots of people only run B20 but still think they are doing wonders for the planet so you would still be way ahead of them on a blend that was at least B80.

Don’t forget, most people make Bio with 20% or more Methanol which from my understanding, is commercially manufactured from Natural Gas…. A fossil fuel.
If one were blending with Kero at 20%, it would seem to me that the actual fossil fuel component with B100 and 20% Kero blend is virtually the same.

I don’t know what Koh or NAOH is made from which is also needed in bio production but as most people have a disposal problem with the Bio by product of Glycerin because it is too “ungreen” to be poured down the drain, I’d have to think that in the grand scheme of things, blending is at least as green as full Bio and probably greener!