Woolworths Plus Diesel Supplies on the Mid Nth Coast.

[Jacka Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Jacka]

Well over the last week I have made a couple of trips to the Mid Nth Coast specifically Taree.

I filled up at Woolworths Plus/Caltex branded station for Diesel and to my surprise on the pump there is a little sticker that says something along the lines that this fuel contains upto 2% Biodiesel and is suitable for all diesel engines.

I asked the Manager and found out that it is coming out Newcastle. I wasn't able get any further info as he didn't know any more than that unfortunately.


The fuel did look as though it was blended and you could just smell the faint odor of biodiesel.

I am going to speak over the next couple of days to the regional Manager for Woolworths Plus and see if I can find out HOW MANY Mid Nth Coast stations have Biodiesel blends in them and where they are coming from.

It interesting to see that in some case's biodiesel is being picked up by main stream ie woolworths plus. It would be great if we could get into woolworths plus with the blended fuel to inform the consumer and get them to push for bigger blends etc etc etc Something for the ABU to look at maybe?

[Matt Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Matt]

Re: Woolworths Plus Diesel Supplies on the Mid Nth Coast.

I would not be surprised if most fuel suppliers are now doing that. The 2 percent biodiesel is a lot cheaper than modifying the refinery to put back the aromatics and other things being removed when they remove all the sulphur.

Its a no brainer for them, buy some bio, blend it to 2% replace all the lost lubrication properties, be seen to be environmental and all is fine.

Not for me. I see it as a cynical approach to being green and all they are doing is making up for their (and the vehicle manufacturers) shortcomings.

Its a mechanical and material compatibility issue as the injection pump parts need lubrication and the seals need to be kept swollen to seal correctly.

Off my soapbox,
Matt

[gwalker Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close gwalker]

Re: Woolworths Plus Diesel Supplies on the Mid Nth Coast.

This is probably fuel from Caltex who announced late last year that they were going to blend 2% BD with their diesel.
It should start appearing everywhere.
George

[Guest Close David]

Re: Woolworths Plus Diesel Supplies on the Mid Nth Coast.

Its a no brainer for them, buy some bio, blend it to 2% replace all the lost lubrication properties, be seen to be environmental and all is fine.

I am with you Matt.
2% Bio Blend is worth nothing from the enviromental angle even if it does do some good for the engine. To call it a Bio blend is like saying adding 2% of diesel to water makes it diesel when it is still 98% water. Sure technically its a blend but its sure at the thin end of the wedge. According to Jacka, the sign said "Up To" which could mean it was actually .5% Bio.
Like VP, the only thing on their website is about the discount not the fuel itself.

In Fairness, I haven't seen anywhere they are pushing it from the green angle and I doubt they will make much more of it than their little signs on the pump. In going to a more worthwhile blend, they run the risk of controversy and alienating buyers who really don't have a clue or an interest in finding out what Bio is. The normal thing with something unknown is to assume it is bad and pronounce it as such.

Unless Wollies care to test the market and then find that their mainstream customer pool would have a greater number of people attracted to the green aspect of the fuel than those that are frightened off by the unknown of Bio, I doubt they will make anything of it or spend money on a public education ad Campaign. Even if they did push the green aspect, You can bet some rabble rousing " Current Affairs" show would do a " report" on it and trot out some ex-spurt who would at very least cast suspicion over it if not straight denounce it as causing everything from engine failure to Lumbago.

My bet is they are only trying to market a Quality fuel that meets some standards for lubrication value to prevent any controversy or repercussions from buyers.

[Robert Administrator Find all posts View Profile Close Robert]

Re: Woolworths Plus Diesel Supplies on the Mid Nth Coast.

Out of all the big oilers, Caltex here seem to be the most interested/supportive of biodiesel. I've met their man a few times who always attends the biodiesel functions.

We must also remember that much of the biodiesel commercially produced in Australia has not been sold. ABG have had to mothball their Berkely Vale plant. They were hoping for better support from the big oilers, but that didn't happen (also the govt's 2006 fuel bill didn't help).

If Caltex are buying biodiesel from a commercial producer (ABI in Rutherford, I think) and blending it at 2%, that is still a lot of biodiesel being combusted. At least it is supporting the industry. My own preferences would obviously be for B100, but there is quite simply not enough to go around, even if everyone did sell it, so if I was low on fuel, I'd prefer the little drop that Caltex offers over the 0% that the others do.

Lastly, it is also worth recognising that limited biodiesel quantities have a greater environmental benefit when used as small blends among a greater number of vehicles, as opposed to higher concentrations in a smaller number of vehicles. For example, if I had a fleet of 100 cars and only enough B100 for 10 of them, I would get more environmental benefit from running all of them on B10 than I would from 10 on B100. This is because the biodiesel helps the distillate to combust better. I don't have the figures to hand, but a better ratio of reduction of nasties is seen at B20 than at B100 (I hope that makes sense - sorry if I have not worded it well. )

As such, B2 may seem a bit of a piss-poor effort for those of use like myself who will only use B100, but we should celebrate that less fossil fuel is being burned now by this 2%, which I'd guess might still equate to more biodiesel used than the rest of us running B100.

[Jacka Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Jacka]

Re: Woolworths Plus Diesel Supplies on the Mid Nth Coast.

Gee that got blown way out of what I was trying to advocate!

From our(User's on here) Point of view I would have to agree that 2% is a poor effort.

But something has to be said for SOMEONE trying to do the rite thing.

I mean we all moan and grown about VP doing B??? blends and keeping it a big dark hidden secret which does NOTHING for Biodiesel in the long run other than we end up with the same results as Ethanol problems from a few years ago.

I would rather see 2% being added and having the opportunity of getting Biodiesel into the community and give groups LIKE ABU for example a place that we may well be able to get to the consumer and provide them with ALL the information about Biodiesel and let them make up their minds.

I would like to see the consumer INFORMED rather than BURNT which has in the past happened from VP and others and let the CONSUMER call for LARGER blends or Biodiesel or even B100 outlets.


Sometimes I have to wonder about this place. It seems at times to either be all or nothing. Some people don't seem to want to work towards a better future, they just want to blow down what we have.

If a 2% blend gets the CONSUMER aware of Biodiesel and ABU and BAA and RFA get to the CONSUMER then let them make up their mind and PUSH for introduction of the product.

it is NO good going of like a bad gun just to end up with cowboys like VP and end up further back than we started.

The ONLY way through this whole process of gaining Acceptance and Gov support for Biodiesel is to make sure the CONSUMER is informed and allowing them to test the waters with 2% and GAIN information about the product they can push for B10 or B50 or even B100 which would suit us all on here.

And I would like to thank Robert for his support he see's that it has to be little steps ALL over AUS to make a change not BIG steps in little corners of AUS that will do anything other than make those who make an effort warm and fuzzy!

Me shakes head, really don't know what it is at times

[Guest Close David]

Re: Woolworths Plus Diesel Supplies on the Mid Nth Coast.

Me shakes head, really don't know what it is at times

Yeah, I know what you mean Dave.

[Jacka Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Jacka]

Re: Woolworths Plus Diesel Supplies on the Mid Nth Coast.

David I have to wonder at times.( not directed at you or anyone person in general David just a comment in general on the forum as I see it now)

I put this out there to see what other people thought about trying to inform the consumer and basically all that came back was what a waste of time on their behalf.

Why is it that some people can't realise that we can't push B100 at EVERY diesel pump in AUS at the moment, there just isn't enough supply. Why can't we start by looking to get like what woolworths have done 2% blend at EVERY pump? WHy can't we look at informing the consumer of the benefits they are getting by filling up at XYZ Station instead of filling up next door who don't sell a blend? Why can't we work together in providing the ability for New users of Biodiesel to find out information and not just "What a waste of time 2% is"? People see that sign on the pump and are interested in finding out more info where do you think people will go? Google and they will at some stage end up at places like here and see that people have said that it is a waste of time! Well theres goes another convert to Biodiesel.

WHY is it that people have to provide a negative about this type of thing without seeing what this COULD do if handled correctly to the ENTIRE biodiesel cause?

I really and truly don't understand at times this forum was GREAT when I first started and from a lot of people is still a great place but there are people that just provide a negative to just about everything that does not fit their picture of how the world should be and this is not just about this thread I have seen it in other threads that I have looked at and decided to stay out of the discussion just based on the fact that it got off track and became a debate of one side verse the other. I would really love it for people to make everything a positive!

VP is a problem! We have all had a go at them and they have put something on their website! I hope we had something to do wit that! We should congratulate them on THAT part of the change and keep PUSHING for the rest to be changed like OPEN and HONEST trading.

Now Woolworths Plus and Caltex/Woolworths stations are going to start pumping SOME biodiesel they should be congratulated on that and pushed into something more like informing the customer etc etc etc.

We need to PUSH for Positive growth in Biodiesel so that the consumer can PUSH gov for positive outcomes in Biodiesel, if we don't then in the end we will still be going round and round in 10 years time doing the same thing over and over and over again! I really hope that is not going to be the case!

It does make me sad at times to see the debate become something like "It's my way or the Hwy" type deal Hope it does change for the better!

[moonan Member Find all posts View Profile Close moonan]

Re: Woolworths Plus Diesel Supplies on the Mid Nth Coast.

Back to your original post ...
To summarise:
Woolworths sell Caltex fuel. Mid-north coast Caltex fuel comes from Newcastle. Caltex put 2% Rutherford bio into all of their diesel distributed from Newcastle, as a "first step". They will surely have good commercial reasons for this, but as has been said, 2% of a LOT of diesel is a good start, and gets consumer awareness up there.
What Robert said about blends vs B100 when you have limited quantities was borne out by the Newcastle City Council's study. B20 in their entire fleet reduced overall costs (fuel, maintenance etc) (and other measures, I forget exactly what) than B100 in 20% of their fleet.

[Matt Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Matt]

Re: Woolworths Plus Diesel Supplies on the Mid Nth Coast.

Jacka, I posted something earlier but it does not seem to have come up.

Firstly, chin up and do not get despondent, not one little bit. I am prepared to listen to most and what Robert had to say put me in my place, the sheer fact that 2% of Caltex's distillate is now being displaced by something better is wonderful news. I am serious he made me think and I changed my mind at the realisation that this is truely something good for the planet albeit small.

Reasonableness at all times,
Sincereley,
Matt

[Guest Close David]

Re: Woolworths Plus Diesel Supplies on the Mid Nth Coast.

I put this out there to see what other people thought about trying to inform the consumer and basically all that came back was what a waste of time on their behalf.

Dave, with respect, what you are saying here is that you are disapointed/ annoyed that not everyone who responded was excited as you about the opportunities you see this having. I do understand that but I don't think it is reasonable to think everyone is just going to be positive about everything or look at things from only one angle, particualrly the angle you want them to see it from.

You see this as an opportunity to promote BioDiesel and Woolworths/ caltex as doing the right thing. I Don't.
I see it as big business doing something convienent to help themselves. I believe if they were doing it for the right reasons, they would be shouting it from the rooftops to make the most of cashing in on the green market.
I admit I am cynical especially when it comes to big business and they don't come much bigger or corrupt than oil companies so please understand where my cynacysim comes from. Their motivations fall in line with your far more honourable objectives as a matter of co-incedence. As such, I would reserve my congradulations for people like yourself, not them.

I don't see their 2% bio as a waste of time but I also do not see it as any great benifit to the Biodiesel cause either. As I stated and for the reasons I stated, I don't see this going anywhere for the foreseeable future. You think I'm wrong and I'm not unhappy about that. I think what you are trying to do is great and support you for it but I have a different opinion about this to you, that is all.

Why is it that some people can't realise that we can't push B100 at EVERY diesel pump in AUS at the moment, there just isn't enough supply.

Sorry, I totally disagree with this. There is not enough DEMAND. If there wasn't enough supply, the Berkely Vale plant would not be mothballed and they would find a feedstock to meet that demand. If it cost more, then again the green angle would be pushed and cashed in on just like free range eggs and Hydroponic lettuce.

No argument, your aspirations of educating the public and changing the governments outlook would turn this situation around and I do sincerley wish you every success in doing that.

WHY is it that people have to provide a negative about this type of thing without seeing what this COULD do if handled correctly to the ENTIRE biodiesel cause?

We need to PUSH for Positive growth in Biodiesel so that the consumer can PUSH gov for positive outcomes in Biodiesel, if we don't then in the end we will still be going round and round in 10 years time doing the same thing over and over and over again

After re reading my Post I do not see it as being negative. I see it as my valid opinion on a scenario I believe is the most probable thing to happen and that is very little. I would be happy to be proved wrong. Really Dave, I don't want to argue with you because fundamentally I admire your conviction and motivations and am in total agreement with them. I just don't think it is fair to label everyone who sees things differently to you as being negative or that they are fundamentally wrong for having a different viewpoint to yourself.

Now, with the full knowledge this will probably stand me as the villain of the forum, Let me just state that my motivations and involvement in Bio fuels is for Cheap Fuel and independence.

I fully recognisee other people are motivated by saving the planet and I don't think they are wrong because their ideas are different to mine. If that is what they want to do, Fantastic, they have my full support. The thing is it just isn't MY motivation. Right now at this time in my life, my pre-occupation is my family and doing the best I can for them at this moment. I am concerned about the world they will have but I have my hands full with more immediate things right now and can't do all I would like to. For this reason, I am grateful to the people who will take up the enviromental cause on behalf on myself and my kids but I won't accept being seen as wrong because I'm not trying to convince the world to use Bio Fuels.

That said and before anyone flames me to a cinder, it should be remembered that my selfish motivations for using Bio fuels also correlate nicely with other peoples goals in benefiting the enviroment etc. I use Bio Fuel so therefore I am doing exactly what the people with green motivations would want everyone to be doing.
Works out nicely I think

Good luck with increasing the Bio Fuels awareness Dave and I hope your enthuiasiam and dedication remains as strong as it is now. It will certainly be an asset to everyone in every goal you achieve.

[RASTEVE Donating Member Find all posts View Profile Close RASTEVE]

Re: Woolworths Plus Diesel Supplies on the Mid Nth Coast.

I guess this puts all the Woolworths stores out of contention for the business of the VW TDi drivers with the 'no biodiesel' sticker inside the filler door.

I may have missed it on another thread, but what is the problem with bio in the VW TDis? Is it something to do with an emission filter or something?

Cheers, Steve.

[Robert Administrator Find all posts View Profile Close Robert]

Re: Woolworths Plus Diesel Supplies on the Mid Nth Coast.

Hi Steve, I think the VW position is possibly a little more to do with arse-covering and keeping the petroleum industry happy than any real reasons to stop their consumers being more responsible with global warming, social and political issues.

I've ranted about this in so many places in here that it even takes me ages to find them all. The best place to start may be a thread here, which contains links to some other threads, including the one about Diesel Particulate Filters. Another useful thread is here, which contains loads of other links to VW & biodiesel.

I'm quite possibly going to be getting my wife a TDi Polo in the next year or so and I personally would see no problem with feeding it the good oil, despite what the sticker says.

Anyway, the Woolworths stuff is only B2. In Europe, VW are legally required to support biodiesel up to B5, so I don't see any problems here.

[Jonatben Biofuels Forum Newbie Find all posts View Profile Close Jonatben]

Re: Woolworths Plus Diesel Supplies on the Mid Nth Coast.

it is true that caltex is using biodiesel and its heading into newcastle. Its good stuff upto European spec. Canola biodiesel

[Jonatben Biofuels Forum Newbie Find all posts View Profile Close Jonatben]

Re: Woolworths Plus Diesel Supplies on the Mid Nth Coast.

I can't speak for all of the biodiesel but some of it is coming from smaller commercial biodiesel producers, not the large oil companies. Over the last year large changes in the taxation have caused huge problems for commercial biodiesel and seeing these companies taking on biodiesel gives hope. The more people use biodiesel the more information there will be out there on all the technical aspects. Commercial companies welcome home brewers as it promotes the use of biodiesel, just like wine. All biodiesel producers need to stand together the changes at the top are being ncouraged by the large oil manufacturers making the playing field far from even.