What to ask vehicle manufacturers

[angus Biofuels Forum Newbie Find all posts View Profile Close angus]

Can anyone assist me to frame a specific question to submit to car manufacturers to identify whether it can use biodiesel without problems?

I note the information on key internet sites stating that the development of low sulphur diesel has required vehicle manufacturers to "switch to components that are also suitable for use with biodiesel. In general, biodiesel used in pure form can soften and degrade certain types of elastomers and natural rubber compounds over time. Using high percent blends can impact fuel system components (primarily fuel hoses and fuel pump seals) that contain elastomer compounds incompatible with biodiesel, although the effect is lessened as the biodiesel blend level is decreased".

I want to write to Holden/Isuzu to identify whether there are any components my vehicle such as hoses or sealing gaskets that are made from compounds that will soften or degrade as a result of biodiesel use - but I just don't know how to frame the question so that I'll get a meaningful response. I can ask "does my vehicle have hoses and sealing gaskets that are susceptible to breakdown from biodiesel use?", but my expectation of any such question that includes reference to biodiesel would be a complete waste of time. If I knew the compounds that are OK, I could ask "does my vehicle have hoses and sealing gaskets that are made of ...". But I don't know specifically what is OK.

Can anyone advise what specific question/s I should be asking the technical section in Holden/Isuzu to identify if my vehicle may have components that might be susceptible to degradation/failure. What specific materials are at risk? What specific materials are not?

Should I simply assume that any 2004 model diesel is designed for low sulphur diesel and is therefore OK?

This form of guideance, and the right questions to ask would be a very useful addition to the biodiesel forum website as text for a form-letter.

[Gunner Donating Member Find all posts View Profile Close Gunner]

Re: What to ask vehicle manufacturers

It's a meaningful answer you should be trying to get, rather than worrying about what meaningful questions to ask. Ask them what their policy is towards commercial biodiesel made to ASTM standards, and what specific research they have done to arrive at that response. Have they done any specific research (which I'm certain that Isuzu MUST have done) in relation to lubricity problems with Low-sulphur diesel, and the use in Europe of mandated B5? Have they looked at the increasing trend of certain oil companies in Aust in using BD as an additive to Low-sulphur Diesel to increase lubricity? Have they used fuel system components that are suitable for the "New" standard of petrodiesel.

If they say they have not designed their vehicles to utilise the modern standard of petrodiesel, ask them if they have issued a bulletin through their Dealer network to avoid using fuel from the Oil Co majors that now sell limited amounts of B5 (Shell, Caltex and Mobil according to Rutherford). If they are satisfied that your vehicle can run B5, why do they have an issue (Assuming they do, that is!) with B20, B50 or B100?

The problem is not your choice of fuel, it's their choice of components

[glenos Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close glenos]

Re: What to ask vehicle manufacturers

From memory isuzu do not support the use of Biodiesel. There is some information here.

I own a 3.0TD Jackaroo, very similar motor to the Rodeo, except your engine is less touchy, this is something the Jackaroo (4jx1 engine) is known for.

[angus Biofuels Forum Newbie Find all posts View Profile Close angus]

Re: What to ask vehicle manufacturers

Gunner,
much as I appreciate that you have a point of view, I posted my question on the "using biodiesel" section of the forum.

I want to use B100 on my vehicle, I want to find out what the risks are for my specific vehicle and its components.

I don't really care whether ISUZU / Holden supports use of 5% or 10% biodiesel or not, has a policy, or accepts a biosiesel standard - that was not my question.

The gap in my knowledge that I am trying to fill is:
1. What specific components are at risk;
2. What specific types of materials ARE problematic in these components;
and most importantly
3. What specific types of materials ARE NOT problematic in these components.

With this knowledge I can seek relevant information evaluate my specific vehicle (or any vehicle) for suitability / risk.

I would have thought that the specifics of these questions were essential knowledge for increasing biodiesel use.

Anyone who wants to have a crack the vehicle manufacturers and their inadequate policies - go for your life. Please start your own thread.

[Robert Administrator Find all posts View Profile Close Robert]

Re: What to ask vehicle manufacturers

Re having a crack at vehicle manufacturers, just to begin my getting off topic - watch this space. I'm planning to do a "name and shame" of the questions that myself and others have asked them and their responses (or lack thereof). However, I'm a little time poor at present, so I'll do this later.
As for your specific vehicle, and the right questions to ask...
I did this with Landrover about 4 years ago. I simply asked them if any components in their fuel system contained natural rubber. I fought this for some time and never actually got an answer. I tried to avoid mentioning biodiesel, as I knew they'd just say "no". Eventually, I admitted to wanting to use biodiesel, so they just came back and told me that their engines were "too highly tuned" to use more than 1 in 4 tanks of biodiesel, which was a bit silly, but that was the best they could do. I never found out whether any components were made of natural rubber, despite my specific questions.
The truth of the matter is that they should all have been using synthetic products like Viton instead of rubber since the mid 90s, but I've heard that sometimes they don't. As you rightly point out, Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel is also a problem for rubber, so they'd better sort it out.
I would love to see a list of vehicles that
had "no natural rubber components" stamped on them, but I'm yet to find one, or to compile my own.
A form letter to put together would be a great idea, then everyone could download one and nag their manufacturers...
Another project for another time - unless someone else would like to take up this challenge?

[angus Biofuels Forum Newbie Find all posts View Profile Close angus]

Re: What to ask vehicle manufacturers

I have just received a response from the National Biodiesel Board in USA, the attached publication is entitled:

"National Biodiesel Board Guidance, Issued November 30, 2005 :Use of Biodiesel Blends above 20% Biodiesel"

It seems the concern about breakdown of components is specific to "natural or butyl rubbers" in seals/hoses.

Is it more complex then that asking a manufacturer if the vehicle has any seals of components that are natural or butyl rubber (if so what components); or whether these are all made from synthetic materials?

[Robert Administrator Find all posts View Profile Close Robert]

Re: What to ask vehicle manufacturers

Yes Angus, that should be the only question that you need to ask them:

Are any components that come into contact with my fuel on its progress through the engine made from natural rubber also known as "NBR" or "buna-n" or "nitrile" rubber? I understand that most modern cars since the mid 90s have been using synthetic rubbers such as "FKM" or "Viton", as natural rubbers can be affected by the use of low sulfur diesel. Can you please confirm that my vehicle has no natural rubber parts in the fuel system?

There are no other issues to running biodiesel apart form the rubber issue, so if there are no rubber parts, you are good to go regardless of what the manufacturer might say.

[angus Biofuels Forum Newbie Find all posts View Profile Close angus]

Re: What to ask vehicle manufacturers

Thanks Robert,
I've just sent the following to Holden in writing, I will post their response:

**************
Hello Holden,
I have a technical question relating to my 2004 Holden Rodeo 3.0L TD automatic.

Are any components that come into contact with my fuel on its progress from the fuel tank through the engine made from natural rubber (also known as "NBR" or "buna-n" or "nitrile" rubber)?

I understand that many modern cars since the mid 90s have been using synthetic rubbers such as "FKM" or "Viton" (for seals, hoses, etc.), as natural rubbers can be affected by the use of low sulfur diesel. Can you please:

1. confirm that my vehicle has no natural rubber parts in the fuel system; or
2. advise of all relevant components that are made from (or include) natural rubber so that I can consider replacement/upgrade.
**************

[Gunner Donating Member Find all posts View Profile Close Gunner]

Re: What to ask vehicle manufacturers

Gunner,
I don't really care whether ISUZU / Holden supports use of 5% or 10% biodiesel or not, has a policy, or accepts a biosiesel standard - that was not my question.

Anyone who wants to have a crack the vehicle manufacturers and their inadequate policies - go for your life. Please start your own thread.

Well, I'm sorry for trying to offer you another approach to your vehicle manufacturer. Often direct questions to Service Managers, or Head Office, will receive vague, non-specific answers. If you re-read my reply, you will see that I suggested that you ask them if their warranties approve B5, or B20, B50 etc, and IF they do, why they wouldn't approve B100. I shant use up any more of your bandwith.

[Robert Administrator Find all posts View Profile Close Robert]

Re: What to ask vehicle manufacturers

Fair enough. Angus, Gunner was actually being pretty helpful, maybe you should recognise this?

We look forward to hearing what Holden has to say in reply to your questions.

I've also just posted up some long-winded details on Ultra Low Sulphur Diesel standards, which may be worth a read here, as this may also be relevant to this discussion.