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dagwill
3rd January 2008, 12:00 PM
Day after day we are brainwashed with the GREEN message. Recycle,renewable energy,solar,rainwater tanks. So people spend thousands upon thousands of dollars installing this system or that,using huge amounts of energy to produce all these wonderfull new products.So now that they are SUPPER consumers they tell all their friends how GREEN they are.
GREEN can have a different connotation "young and UNLEARNED"
It seems to me that all we have to do is consume less.!!!
This endless craze for the newest latest gadget drives me round the bend,and our children are out of control,well mine seem to be anyway.
For instance some time ago my daughter was chooseing a video, I said hey hears "REBECCA" great movie...."Not watching that its old as"
Son walks in turns aircon on,1/2 hr later he thinks its getting a bit cold,better turn the heater on.
I blow my stack and point out that all he had to do when he walked in was roll his sleavs up and he would have been fine.

Half the worlds families live in one room with a dirt floor, and i envy their happiness.

When will we learn wisdom and stop being GREEN
Myself included......... "We must be the change we wish to see"..GANDHI

Tony From West Oz
3rd January 2008, 10:37 PM
I agree to some extent. That we need to conserve and use our intelligence to minimise wastage. If we all reduced our power consumption, we would each save the dollars we would otherwise would spend on power, and the pollution from the power stations would also reduce because of the reduction in power produced.
Conservation is the single biggest impact we can have on pollution.
This includes re-use of items, recycling items which cannot be re-used and reduction of the items we waste (packaging etc). The way people go through mobile phones, TVs Stereos, Videos, etc is horrendous. We used to be able to repair items which failed, but now, the "throw away society" fostered by manufacturers, has made it impossible to repair most items, except for the simplest faults on the most expensive items.


Recycle,renewable energy,solar,rainwater tanks. So people spend thousands upon thousands of dollars installing this system or that,using huge amounts of energy to produce all these wonderful new products.
I disagree that something being Green does not mean that it has taken more energy to produce than a product which is not Green. It does make sense to collect water from the roofs of houses rather than let it be polluted by the oils and other contaminants from our roadways and then either let it pollute our rivers or the sea. Solar panels have a cost payback time of around 5 - 10 years at current panel and energy prices and an energy payback time of around 2 years. The cost payback reduces everytime the power prices rise after the system is installed. While the interest rate does impact on the costs, it is still a valid exercise, albeit a high cost capital item.

The only other item in the list I quoted is renewable energy. I feel that you may mean products like Green Power in this item, you may have other items in mind, but I'll deal with Green Power here 'cos I don't know what you have in mind.
Green Power should be the power produced by all power utilities but it is much cheaper to pollute with coal than to provide solar, wind, geo thermal, tidal and/or wave power. The power companies do not pay for the pollution, we all do, even those who do not have grid power or have their own solar/wind power systems.
The Green Power usage is audited by a branch of the Commonwealth Bank (IIRC) and there are heavy penalties for Utilities who do not buy the correct amount of renewable power for what they claim to be providing.
There are good reasons for paying the extra:
It lets the Utilities know that customers DO care about the environment, It forces them to buy renewable power, which encourages investment in renewables, It lets someone who cannot afford the capital for their own Solar or Wind system to buy power from non-polluting sources.

I hope that this topic will foster some meaningful discussions on this issue.

dagwill
5th January 2008, 12:14 PM
POWER
At the moment im constructing a diy solar HWS from items purchased from a large scrap metal yard in adelaide,as i see that as the easiest way to save a large amount of power.
WATER
I live in a log cabin in the center of 6 acres of natural scrub.
When i bought it about 5 yrs ago,it had a large cleared area sweeping down in front of the house with well over 1/4 acre of lawn.The previous owner told me his eccess water bill was between 6 and $800,and gave me a large folder reserching, sinking a bore.
I turned on the elaborate pop up system just once,and watched.After the second bottle of home brew,things had become "clear",eccept for that bit of sediment in the bottom of the bottle.
I never turned the pop ups on again, and slowly with a little help yong natives are poping up.
I installed an above ground pool dug into the ground at the rear so that the top of the pool is level with existing decking.[i keep the correct chlorine amount for health but dont worry about SPARKLING clear and only run the filter for about 1hr every second day or so,enough to remove any skin flakes etc,99% of cloudiness seems to be residue from chemicals so i dont worry.]
I looked at my last 4 water bills [1 yr ] after disreguarding supply charges, my water cost was $47 for the total consumption of 98 kilo ltrs
Now roughly to supply myself with 98 k/ltrs i would need to install aprox 2x22,000 ltr poly tanks. Hoping they fill twice in a season.
Cost of 2x22,000 ltr BUSHMAN tanks $7,000
$7,000 divided by $47, gives me a break even time of 148 yrs
I havnt done it yet but i plan to redirect my run off from the roof straight into the pool,i should get top ups through the summer, and a complete water change through the winter.
Im all in favor of water prices doubleing,at least,to encourage conservation.
Having the luxury of trees all around us, i declare only women pee inside,just never go twice in the same place.
Nothing more beautiful than to wizz outside in the commercial break and gaze up at the stars for a minute,on a warm evening with a gentle breeze.
Its a bit like any fertiliser too much in one place will burn things off[and smell] but spread around spareingly is very benificial for plants with all that nitrogen.Imagine how many flushes i save every yr.
The only thing i had to get over was the shreeks of laughter from the possums every time i hang it out.

Captain Echidna
5th January 2008, 02:22 PM
I looked at my last 4 water bills [1 yr ] after disreguarding supply charges, my water cost was $47 for the total consumption of 98 kilo ltrs
Now roughly to supply myself with 98 k/ltrs i would need to install aprox 2x22,000 ltr poly tanks. Hoping they fill twice in a season.
Cost of 2x22,000 ltr BUSHMAN tanks $7,000
$7,000 divided by $47, gives me a break even time of 148 yrs


I think there are some misconceptions with rainwater tanks and how much is needed, which are not helped by tank sellers.

I put an extra tank which was given to me on my last house. I put a hole in it, meaning it had a capacity of 780L This was used for everyting in the house except flushing the toilet for my wife and I. This supplied the house for about 8 months of the year, and we used water generously in this time.

I think the main criteria is not the size of the rainwater tank, but the size of the collection area, and look at your rainfall for your area. Where I live it seems to rain all year so really I would only need to store a month or two's worth of water. If you live in a place where it only seems to rain one day in winter, then you will need rainwater tanks to hold a years worth.

I would be interested to see your figures only saving 50% of your water (say over winter). You will only need to store a small amount, as it will be topped up constantly.

dagwill
5th January 2008, 03:38 PM
hi Chris
i live in S.A. at Lyndoch, av. rainfall about 500 ml nearly all in winter,
Even if i save 100% of my water i will only save $47. Although i think i understand where your coming from,saving 50% of my water through winter as i could have a much smaller tank, that is constantly refilling.
Even so i think i would only save $23.50 in water bills, so even on a little, $500 tank,it will take 21 yrs to break even.
I realise i am by nature a bit of a synic, but i shake my head when,at the reservior that supplies our area was fitted with an increased levy bank and flood controll gates that made it possible to store an additional 2 mtrs of water,but then the gates were removed when management realised that if a flood did occour and for some reason the gates were not actuated,they would be liable for all damage caused by that flood.

Tony From West Oz
6th January 2008, 10:46 PM
Dagwill,
Your miserly warter usage is to be commended. Unfortunately you appear to be in the minority in Australian communities where the wide expanse of green lawn is often regarded as a requirement for acceptance in the community. In WA, where all properties supplied by reticulated water are limited to 2 days per week watering, the push for bore water contractors has pushed up the price of bores even further.
The water table is falling rapidly due to Water Authority bores drawing unsustainable volumes of water from the coastal sands, significant reduction in stream flows to Perth's dams due to climate change, increased sealing of roads and connection of storm water mains to take away the rainfall, rather than letting it soak into the ground, draining of swamp areas for housing and an explosion in the number of household bores being installed.
As a result, a lot of native bushland is dying off (lack of ground water for the trees).
If households were to halve their annual water consumption (which would still be in excess of your meagre usage) then some of the water problems Perth and the coastal strip face would be relieved to a large extent.

Captain Echidna
7th January 2008, 01:50 PM
Yeah I see your point with only getting rain in winter.



I realise i am by nature a bit of a synic, but
At least you havent mentioned the "turning down" of the snowy river scheme (a few years ago), by putting a lot of the water from the scheme (and the Murray) into the snowy river. Then its a surprise when the Murray seems to run out of water???
And why is it that water is running short (Ok Tony, WA really is in strife) and we must conserve it (despite the water saving measures of letting it run out to sea down here:confused:, letting it run out to sea via the snowy :confused:and the water saving measures of the liberal party "one child for each parent and one for the country":confused::confused:) , but mention fossil fuel like petrol and the media says it should be cheaper as we all have a right to do with it what we want?

I think we need water allocations per person. At the moment I cant water my car with a non trigger nozzle, but can have a 4 hour shower?
I cant put my kids under a sprinkler on a hot day, but putting the air conditioner to 17 degrees and burning a heap of fossil fuel is OK? despite using the air conditioner will contribute to global warming, a continuing of this drought and will therefore make the problems WORSE now and in the future???

Thanks for my opportunity to vent. I am still dont understand this water crisis, but I feel better.

dagwill
7th January 2008, 04:30 PM
[quote=Captain Echidna;19402]


"At the moment I cant water my car with a non trigger nozzle, but can have a 4 hour shower?
I cant put my kids under a sprinkler on a hot day, but putting the air conditioner to 17 degrees and burning a heap of fossil fuel is OK? despite using the air conditioner will contribute to global warming, a continuing of this drought and will therefore make the problems WORSE now and in the future???"

Well said Captain echidna
I see the only real way to conserve is through price, weather it is water electricity or fuel.
for water and electricity a base need could be calculated,for argument sake let that be 100 units and are charged at the current rate, the next 100 units at double that rate,the next 100 at double the previous rate and so on.
I uderstand the allocation/person point, but in general the more people in a house the higher the income
As for fuel. One of our major problems is obeasity,work the rest out for yourself.
The increase in price could be a form of tax which could go back to solving said problems or alternatives

David
7th January 2008, 07:51 PM
Sorry, but I think a lot of this "conservation" as pledged by government departments Goes right back to the " Green" Bullshit as was the initial topic comment of this thread and already touched on previously. What it really comes down to is BAD MANAGEMENT by the various governments and their departments.

All this save water and electricity is little more in most cases than a convinent spin to cover what is nothing more than years of bad planning and poor investment of our tax Dollars.

Why is it that individuals are always the ones the pressure is put on to save fuel, recycle, be environmentally friendly, save water, electricity and anything else that can be dreampt up when I never see any such pressure put on big business and corporations to do anything about what they do when in a single week their wasteful and environmentally damaging practices would would wipe of the good deeds and efforts of thousands of people over their entire lifetimes!

I know through a friends father that sits on the board of Sydney electricity that there are going to be major power shortages in Sydney and NSW over the next few years. The reason for this has nothing to do with climate change, drought, global warming or anything else other than greedy governments pulling too much revenue out of the enterprise and not putting near enough back into infra structure.

The government has more information than anyone as to growth rates, population increases, housing density , energy consumption and anything else that matters so for them not to properly plan ahead, as every government has had to do for more than the last 100 years is just plain bad mismanagement.
They had worse droughts in the '40s than what we are having now and the cycle of drought and flood is nothing new! Failing to plan ahead with the information that is well known is criminal. In any case, wouldn't anyone with half a brain plan ahead and build in buffers so if things didn't go to plan your arse was still covered? Why is it in this modern day and age in a progressive country are we faced with these sorts of problems?
Reason is BAD MANAGEMENT. Nothing more, nothing less.

Saying we need to conserve water, electricity and most other things is just making an excuse for years of Fkups without having to admit to them.
Politicians know they are only going to be potentially in office for so long. Take the short cuts, keep the people happy for the short time you are there then piss off with a huge pension and some other poor sod can then take over the stuffups you created because you were too busy looking after your interests not the people who put you in charge of looking after them.

If we are running out of these essentials, why aren't we pulling back on the population? Wouldn't the logical thing be to say, we are going to have a hard time with water and power in the future years, we better cut down on the amount of people we bring in till we can get the problems sorted. Obviously less people make less demand on what you have especially when it is in short supply. Why don't they do that?
Because that would be to cut their throats with Votes and revenue.
Much better to put a " Green" spin on things and make people feel guilty for trying to lead a modern, comfortable life. When you have enough resources to support the population, then you can increase it to the level of what you can maintain.
If a farmer put 100 cows in a paddock that could only support 50 and then complained there wasn't enough feed or water for them, you'd call him an idiot and if he was managing the farm for you, you'd sack him as incompetent. You wouldn't try to get the cows to eat or drink less!

The way we are taxed in this country, no one should have to save anything. Not to say they should be able to waste, but shouldn't have to cut down on perfectly reasonable expectations of resource usage like watering the front garden.

There is a big difference between wasting something and using it for a valid and legitimate purpose in modern life.

And for those that would argue that these restrictions are nessacary given the unusual weather conditions, lets see if things change once the dams are full again. They will then fabricate some other crap excuse as to why we have to pay still more. Instead of higher prices because of the shortage of water, it will be we have to pay more because their is so much to process or other malarkey. I'm not amused how I am encouraged and in fact obligated to use less water yet I am not compensated in any way through lower service charges. If I'm using less, why should I be charged the same or even more??

I can buy a large screen TV, a bunch of DVD players, a decent stereo and endless other luxuries for the same or less than my electricity or water bill now and don't even mention a months food. If we really need to cut back, why are we being asked to cut back on essentials when superfluous luxuries get cheaper all the time? Why don't we make the luxuries more expensive so the water and electricity and other resources that goes into making them is reduced instead of being asked to compromise basic every day living??

I don't squander anything and the small luxuries in life I have I dam well deserve without making my life and that of my families any less fulfilling, comfortable or more expensive. I live in a very modest near 100 year old house in a less than wonderful suburb and the youngest Vehicle I own is 12 years old.
If anyone thinks I should be paying more to have a shower or turn on a light, frankly, they can get stuffed and should wake up to what the real problem is and stop being hoodwinked by the bullshit we are being fed by one incompetent politician after another.

Green IS obscene when it is being used as it is to brainwash us and lead us up the garden path as it is every day.

What the real shortage of is these days is people seeing reality instead of swallowing up every bit of propaganda they are fed by the ass kissing clowns we elect to look after us but whom excel in screwing us over and then makeing us think we are responsible for the problems they caused!
:mad:

[/ end rant]
:D:D:D

BjBlaster
7th January 2008, 11:52 PM
here, here!

dagwill
8th January 2008, 12:54 PM
WOW ! David 10 points, well said.
i agree with much of what you say, although i dont think we can blame it all on our gov. , we still have to take individual responsibility. ie, i am happy to criuse around in my 2 tone 4by on wvo whereas if was really serious,i would fit a diesel motor into the little morry in the back of the shed and instead of burning all that wvo and belching masses of co2 everywhere,i would have enough oil to supply 2 of my friends or family,as well as myself.