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  • Additives vs. Low Blends

    Hi there,

    I haven't posted on this group before, but I've been interested in biodiesel for a while, and recently did some research on it. A friend of mine asked me about the following, though, and I don't know the answer. Perhaps someone here can tell me off the top of their head?

    When it comes to using biodiesel in Sydney during the winter months (South-West - pretty cold, gets below zero), how does B50 or B100 with additives stack up against B20? Is there a decrease in performance that comes with using additives? It seems to me that people tend to use lower blends instead. Under what circumstances would you use a higher blend with an additive?

    Also, where do you get these additives and how much do they cost?

    Cheers,
    Julian

  • #2
    Re: Additives vs. Low Blends

    Well from my experiance using a B50 or there abouts from Volume Plus in Ingleburn I have had no problems.

    I am living in the Southern highlands up at about 400m above sea level and we have had a few below 0c mornings already this year and havn't had any problems at all with the B50 I have been running.

    That is only from my experiance I am still learning as well.
    Dave

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    • #3
      Re: Additives vs. Low Blends

      Lots of variables.

      For my money Kerosene is the best additive to depress cloud point in Australia.
      For cold temps do not make your biodiesel from tallow.

      Tilly

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      • #4
        Re: Additives vs. Low Blends

        I used to buy Kero in Bulk for a Kero heater and stove but it seems all the service stations that had a kero pump have now all been replaced by modern new convience stores that sell petrol and hamburgers but don't have anything you can run your lawn mower on.

        Does anyone know where bulk kero either from the pump or in 20L or larger tins can be had from and what the going price is?
        As I am near bankstown airport, I was also wondering about using Avtur ( The old Jet-A1) as I believe that is just high grade Kero but haven't found out about the price as yet.

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        • #5
          Re: Additives vs. Low Blends

          Hello David

          JetA-1 is kerosene and is the standard jet fuel used in Australia.
          I was told by a fellow I know that some of the crop dusters use Diesel in their turbine engines.

          Tilly

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          • #6
            Re: Additives vs. Low Blends

            David,

            The Volume Plus servo on Milperra Rd, opposite the Bankstown Trotting club has a Kerosene bowser, 199.9c/L. I noticed it the other day when I was checking out their non existant supplies of B50.
            geewizztoo
            Senior Member
            Last edited by geewizztoo; 7 June 2006, 02:43 PM.

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            • #7
              Re: Additives vs. Low Blends

              199,9/L !!!! Wow! Thought it would be a bit more expensive than petrol, maybe 1.50-1.60 but 2 bucks a litre for bulk kero is a bit steep!! The kero stoves run better on Diesel anyway!

              Last time I looked some years ago, Jet-A1 was about the same price as unleaded so it would seem a call to the airport to see what the price is these days could be well worth while!

              I spoke to a guy some years ago at the airport that used to run his turbine engined chopper on a 50/50 mix of petrol and diesel. Reckoned he had done that for years and his engines were always in perfect shape at every overhaul. I have heard turbines will burn anything but you'd be a lot safer testing that theroy in your turbine engined boat rather than your aircraft!

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              • #8
                Re: Additives vs. Low Blends

                Hello David,

                Up until a few years ago the US Air Force ran their jets on JP4 which was wide cut petrol.
                The Civilian equivelent is called Jet B.
                JP4/ Jet B is still used in places where it gets very cold.

                Tilly

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                • #9
                  Re: Additives vs. Low Blends

                  Didn't know that Tilly, very interesting. I was of the obviously incorrect impression that Jp4 had some sort of low flamibility additives in it which made it less explosive in the event of a crash but there you go!

                  Speaking of petrol, what are the resident experts opinion on blending that with both Bio and SVO? If kero is going to be so expensive, it would seem better to use unleaded. As this would appear to be a lighter fuel than kero, is there a benifit in needing lower blends as well?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Additives vs. Low Blends

                    Originally posted by JulianC
                    Hi there,

                    I haven't posted on this group before, but I've been interested in biodiesel for a while, and recently did some research on it. A friend of mine asked me about the following, though, and I don't know the answer. Perhaps someone here can tell me off the top of their head?

                    When it comes to using biodiesel in Sydney during the winter months (South-West - pretty cold, gets below zero), how does B50 or B100 with additives stack up against B20? Is there a decrease in performance that comes with using additives? It seems to me that people tend to use lower blends instead. Under what circumstances would you use a higher blend with an additive?

                    Also, where do you get these additives and how much do they cost?

                    Cheers,
                    Julian
                    SO getting back to the original question. Yes blending fuel is a way around the cloud/gel point issue of biodiesel. Tilley had suggested blending BD with kero but I'd be interested in the ratio. ALso B20 would be better that B50 but I would have thought B50 would be a good blend to start at for winter. I guess what oil the BD is made from will determine the cloud/gel point. I've been advised the biodiesel from tallow makes a better summer fuel, but if you are blending with kero or normal diesel then any oil would be OK.
                    Joe Morgan
                    Brisbane Biodiesel Site Admin
                    http://www.brisbanebiodiesel.com

                    Searching tips using Google - SVO Dual tank systems
                    SVO, Common Rail and Direct Injection - Vehicles converted to Used Cooking Oil

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Additives vs. Low Blends

                      Hello David

                      There is a petrol station Here that is selling Kerosene for $1.10/ litre.
                      I was quoted over $400 for a 200 litre drum from a bulk fuel seller.
                      Look around and you might find something better than $2 a litre.

                      Tilly

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Additives vs. Low Blends

                        Thanks Jacka, Tilly and Joe,

                        But I still need an answer for one thing ... when do people use additives and when should you use blends? Why do people not simply drive around with B100 using an additive? Also, isn't kerosene basically a petroleum diesel, so you are still really blending?

                        Julian

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Additives vs. Low Blends

                          Hello julian,
                          You should look at Kerosene as an additive to add to your biodiesel to reduce it's cloud point.
                          The added benefit is that it also meaningfully iincreases the amount of fuel in your tank. $1.10 will buy you a litre of kerosene but only a few hundred ml of some consentrated additive. They will both likely do the same thing.
                          I suspect you will find that all additives are of the petrolium based nature.

                          What you will need to do is perform some Fridge tests.
                          All home made biodiesel freezes at all types of temps.
                          Here in Paradise I would not need to add anything to biodiesel made from most veggie oils, I might even get away with Palm biodiesel in the winter.
                          I would certainly have to add kero or diesel to Tallow biodiesel.
                          Put a sample of your biodiesel in a fridge with a thermometer in it and see at what temp it starts to cloud. Then start adding kero and see what keeps the biodiesel clear at the lowest temp you will experience.
                          That is what I did.

                          Tilly

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                          • #14
                            Re: Additives vs. Low Blends

                            I may be one of the lucky ones. I am an engineer for one of the airlines and get the fuel drains no problems. I have been running my 2.8 diesel 94 hilux on about 50/50 mix of diesel and jet a-1 for a few years now. 3 of us are now starting to make biodiesel and have made a couple of dr pepper batches which appear to be successful. We live in tassie and am hoping that I might use b100 during summer, but will put in say a 20ltr jet a-1 to 30-40 ltrs of BD hoping that I have no problems with the cold.

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                            • #15
                              Re: Additives vs. Low Blends

                              Here is an easy test for your fuel.
                              Take samples of your biodiesel and various blends and place them in your freezer. Set the thermostat to the lowest setting, put a thermometer in there and see which blends remain liquid at the lowest temperature it gets to. You should use the lowest % diesel/kero/JetA which remains liquid at your lowest overnight temperatures.
                              Life is a journey, with problems to solve, lessons to learn, but most of all, experiences to enjoy.

                              Current Vehicles in stable:
                              '06 Musso Sports 4X4 Manual Crew Cab tray back.
                              '04 Rexton 4X4 Automatic SUV
                              '2014 Toyota Prius (on ULP) - Wife's car

                              Previous Vehicles:
                              '90 Mazda Capella. (2000 - 2003) My first Fatmobile. Converted to fun on veggie oil with a 2 tank setup.
                              '80 Mercedes 300D. 2 tank conversion [Sold]
                              '84 Mercedes 300D. 1 tank, no conversion. Replaced engine with rebuilt OM617A turbodiesel engine. Finally had good power. Engine donor for W123 coupe. (body parted out and carcass sold for scrap.)
                              '85 Mercedes Benz W123 300CD Turbodiesel
                              '99 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my darling Wife's car)[sold]
                              '98 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my car)[sold]
                              '06 Musso Sports Crew Cab well body. [Head gasket blew!]
                              '04 Rexton SUV 2.9L Turbodiesel same as Musso - Our Family car.
                              '06 Musso sports Crew Cab Trayback - My hack (no air cond, no heater).

                              Searching the Biofuels Forum using Google
                              Adding images and/or documents to your posts

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