The ATO issue - Is the Taxman going to chase you?

[Robert Administrator Find all posts View Profile Close Robert]

This issue seems to be feared by many enthusiasts who might make their own fuel at home. Unfortunately, it has also caused what could be a vibrant and growing biodiesel scene in Australia, (Sydney especially) to bury itself underground.

The few web forums that exist talk in nudges and winks among members afraid to admit they make or use biodiesel, as they are afraid of the taxman asking for his 38c.

While I will avoid making political comment on the fact that biodiesel is not considered suitable for exemption, I will point out that perhaps if we could organise ourselves into a large enough group with a strong enough voice, then perhaps things might be able to change.

In the mean time, I'd like to point out that this forum supports your anonymity, respects your privacy and is in no way obligated by any laws to keep your personal details or hand them on to the Australian Tax Office. Even in the ridiculous hypothetical circumstance that the ATO chose to pursue a home biodiesel enthusiast and was willing to face the bad media this might bring, they have no rights to request information from this webserver, which is hosted in Switzerland.

Please don't be scared off and let the scene suffer because of irresponsible local tax rulings. Please contribute and maybe one day we can help to convince the powers that be to make better rules.

[Terry Syd Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Terry Syd]

Re: The ATO issue - Is the Taxman going to chase you?

As Robert has stated, there are issues related to homemade biodiesel that involve the Government. It is great that he has provided a forum for discussion that precludes the Government from acquiring your particulars.

If you are interested in a bit of background on the politics of homemade biodiesel there is a thread on the Infopop forum related to the BEER campaign. You can read actual correspondence from the Government and the replies that went back (and good information to discredit Government red herrings). It is a MUST READ if you are serious about making homemade biodiesel in Australia.

http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/groupee/...51/m/761605337

[CueBall Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close CueBall]

Re: The ATO issue - Is the Taxman going to chase you?

My first posting, though I have been following the threads.
I am not a native of Sydney but wish to thank Robert and everyone who has had a part to play in setting up this forum. I have never felt able to express any views elsewhere, given the power of the ATO and the legislation as it now stands.

I am one who would like to make Biodiesel for myself with a friend. We both have stong beliefs concerning the ethical issues of stewardship of the environment, like to be a little self-sufficient, enjoy the challenge of producing a very clean fuel from what is routinely dumped and would like to make our motoring a little less expensive in the future (both in terms of damage to our fuel pumps from the new new low sulphur petro-diesel and when the real cost of energy becomes more apparent).

We obviously have difficulties with the present state of play as it is obvious that the Government does not wish to have any "back-yard" fuel production - excised or not. I would be willing to pay excise if it meant being able to make biodiesel in my backyard (actually within a small shed dedicated to this purpose).
Enough has already been well written here and elsewhere regarding this situation.

The net result has been to cause me to consider whether the making of biodiesel can be considered a form of conscientious objection - with all the attendant potential personal risk from the ATO (i.e. an envorimnmental "Vietnam")?

With regard the making of biodiesel in one's "back-yard", there is enough information around that one can design (as I have done) and build a processing unit (as I have the materials but have not yet done) capable of processing 200 litre batches of biodiesel with zero emissions of any kind to atmosphere (except water vapour) and with a safety factor many times that of what takes place within the average kitchen.
Further, such a unit can be fully built onto a standard pallet-sized base on wheels, and made mobile so as to facilitate it's movement from property to property if so desired. The engineering is not difficult.

On another issue, has anyone thought of centrifuging their WVO to improve its homogeneity so as to provide a better "base stock" for conversion into biodiesel? Such beasties are somewhat expensive, (even second-hand) but would remove so much contamination and variability of product as to make the processing more reliable and consistent - i.e. easier production of very high quality biodiesel along with higher quality glycerine by-product. One could be shared among a group of similar minded people.

I look forward to sharing with others here in the safety of this forum, but would rather see a more enlightened mindset from the powers that be in that place upon the hill.

[darren leonadas Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close darren leonadas]

Re: The ATO issue - Is the Taxman going to chase you?

Regaurding the TAXMAN, and the idea of having or creating a body large enough to challenge the federal Gov. I was hoping BAA might be that body since there is no other national body around i know of. But to my great disapointment i brought up this very issue at the national conference in Sydney hosted by Adrian Lake, and he brushed it off to the next speaker who avoided the whole taxman issue.
NObody answered my Question "Will BAA represent us home reactors and any future comercial reactors on the excise issue??".
I'm totally convinced the Howard Gov. isnt interested in the environment or Australians, just brown nosing US corporate interests. And i'm starting to believe what some very experienced biodiesel reactors are saying ,, that BAA is a toothless tiger. or as one person put it. "A sloppy whore".

[Sauman Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Sauman]

Re: The ATO issue - Is the Taxman going to chase you?

In fact the Taxman should be giving incentives!!!!!!
If they had any sense they would and should promote this as a small scale Industry where by different coop can be formed in different suburbs or towns.So that a central source of collection and manufacture can be achieved.I dont see any reason why the councils dont get involved.They have taken the initiative of setting up lube oil recycling plants ,no reason they cannot set up a 10KLBio Diesel plant in each council.
Their is another catch which I think the taxman needs to consider.Carbon Credits or Clean Defense mechanism which is sweeping past the world as Australia sits back and wanders.....I guess wake up calls are needed.
Look forward to everyone giving it a thought....
Food for thought...oil for thought....clean earth for thought.....
Guess is knowledge...ageold saying"Knowledge is power".....

[joe Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close joe]

Re: The ATO issue - Is the Taxman going to chase you?

It was my understanding of the excise on biodiesel that if you are eligible you could recover you money spend on excise in the form of grants which effectively make the excise rate 0 cents.

This however mainly applies to large haulers and businesses. Not us small time users.

Read here:

http://www.ato.gov.au/businesses/con...tent/52808.htm

[glenos Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close glenos]

Re: The ATO issue - Is the Taxman going to chase you?

This is the kicker for the smaller "home brewers" from the ATO website

Payment of the cleaner fuels grant is conditional on the cleaner fuel meeting this standard. Proof of meeting the standard must be retained for five years as part of your record keeping requirements.


If you are unable to prove you meet the standard, you will not be eligible for the grant, even though you are still required to pay the excise duty on the cleaner fuel you produce. Please contact DEH about processes required to meet the standard by email to fuel.quality@ea.gov.au or fax 02 6274 1172.

So you have to pay the excise and then if you are approved for the grant and can prove that your fuel meets the standard (COSTLY), then you can get your excise back.

If they wanted to encourage the "home brewers" then they could offer a reduced set of testing, to reduce the cost.

The big problem that I have with the current situation is that it will stifle development of production processes by the large number of hobbyists, a body that has provided a lot of technological advance throughout the ages.

[joe Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close joe]

Re: The ATO issue - Is the Taxman going to chase you?

Yeah I agree it is a bit tough and I guess they are genuinely trying to move home users away from making it or moving them towards proper certification. To be honest would any of you want to buy a car for your self or your kids that had been wrecked by years of bad fuel?

I wouldn't.

[Terry Syd Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Terry Syd]

Re: The ATO issue - Is the Taxman going to chase you?

Go back and read the BEER thread. This has nothing to do with making sure that vehicles only run top quality biodiesel. Treasury makes the decisions in this matter - Treasury, get it? (as if Treasury gave a s--t about your engine)

When I went to Canberra and discussed it with the people in Treasury, they told me that if I could bring something to the table that would provide them revenue, they would be willing to discuss the issue.

I offered the idea of yearly permits, a one time fee that Treasury would get and home producers wouldn't be encumbered with all the record keeping and other nonsense - Treasury wasn't interested.

My experience with the Camberra clowns was that they could not be trusted, they would lie at the drop of a hat. If anyone still believes in this "representative" system of government, then I suggest they get up off the couch, turn off the TV and and go out and try to make a difference, it will be a real education on how things really work.

The only thing this Government has done to deal with the spectre of Peak Oil is to review the 'Liquid Fuels Emergency Act' - they have set up the Schedule of who gets fuel as an essential service - and I also noticed that anyone on this forum wasn't in the Schedule. Protect yourself, nobody else will.

[joe Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close joe]

Re: The ATO issue - Is the Taxman going to chase you?

Go back and read the BEER thread. This has nothing to do with making sure that vehicles only run top quality biodiesel. Treasury makes the decisions in this matter - Treasury, get it? (as if Treasury gave a s--t about your engine)

When I went to Canberra and discussed it with the people in Treasury, they told me that if I could bring something to the table that would provide them revenue, they would be willing to discuss the issue.

I offered the idea of yearly permits, a one time fee that Treasury would get and home producers wouldn't be encumbered with all the record keeping and other nonsense - Treasury wasn't interested.

My experience with the Camberra clowns was that they could not be trusted, they would lie at the drop of a hat. If anyone still believes in this "representative" system of government, then I suggest they get up off the couch, turn off the TV and and go out and try to make a difference, it will be a real education on how things really work.

The only thing this Government has done to deal with the spectre of Peak Oil is to review the 'Liquid Fuels Emergency Act' - they have set up the Schedule of who gets fuel as an essential service - and I also noticed that anyone on this forum wasn't in the Schedule. Protect yourself, nobody else will.

So that means when we run out of fuel I will get a letter from little Johnny to my boss saying that I cant drive to work anymore.

I think there might be more to it than that. Whist the government is set on making money, they also do other things like set safety standards and other stuff like that.

Joe

[Terry Syd Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Terry Syd]

Re: The ATO issue - Is the Taxman going to chase you?

? "I think..." ?

Joe, I mentioned that reading the BEER thread would be a good source of information on this issue. In case you have still not taken the time to read it, here is the link -

http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/groupee/...51/m/761605337

After you have read it you can then confirm everything by simply writing a few letters to various politicians, maybe take a trip to Canberra and state your case. Get your smile and handshake (and maybe a photo of you with the VIP, take a camera). I guarantee the only thing you will have from that trip is the photo.

The BEER thread also discusses "standards" so that also might interest you.

Don't take this as a personal attack on yourself. I'm just bringing you up to speed the quick way - you sure don't want to take the slow way and find yourself in some strife with the Goverment.

[Tony From West Oz Vice Chairperson of WARFA Find all posts View Profile Close Tony From West Oz]

The ONLY way to make it legal, is to get enough VOTERS to support the exemption, of homre brew biodiesel, to make a difference, just like the home brew beer lobby did back in the '70s with Goff Whitlam. They managed to get an exemption for home brew beer, for personal consumption, using non commercial methods.

I am trying to get people to consider the formation of a National Body, to represent all prople who support the use of renewable fuels like biodiesel and veg oil, as well as ethanol, producer gas, locally produced methane, landfill gas, biomass etc. Please note that I specified "supports" , not "uses". in my statement above. This should allow a larger membership base and thus greater influence on the political machine, without an increased visibility of those who may not be strictly legal. Remember too, politicians only have one thing on their mind at any point in time: re-election. Anything which significantly increases the proportion of votes, will be supported.

I would see this Body as being a democratic organisation, representing state groups, who elect the National Committee.
I encourage anyone who feels that this would be worthwhile to discuss this idea with your contacts and see if there is any other prople who support the idea.
The Western Australian Renewable Fuels Association Inc. was formed in 2000 and has around 45 financial members at the present and a contact list in the hundreds (mainly ex-members who no-longer need help in making or using the fuel of their choice.). Considering that the membership year is from Jan to Dec, this is unusual and indicates that our financial membership should approach 70 by September. We buy in UCO conversion components for purchase by our members. A member has pallets of Methanol and KOH delivered to his business address on behalf of members. He even stores these consumables for members to access as needed.

Similar groups, formed in other states may be able to provide a focal point for people interested in Renewable Fuels.

[glenos Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close glenos]

Re: The ATO issue - Is the Taxman going to chase you?

I have posted a link to this topic on a 4wd forum that I am involved with, that should bring a few guys out of the woodwork.

Can you make some suggestions on how we can get a representative body up and running? There is little knowledge down here in Tas.

I am reading my way through the BEER post and something interesting occurred to me:
We run out of oil for whatever reason (explosion at a refinery, demand outstrips supply, ...) All of a sudden there is huge demand for fuel, fire engines and ambos don't have enough fuel. The gov't come out and ask for anyone with knowledge of home brew BD to start making it for the "good of the nation", they might even allow us to use some of our own fuel, say 10% with the rest going to essential services. The 10% we are allowed is to cover the fuel used in collection WVO.

Glenos

[jack Biofuels Forum Newbie Find all posts View Profile Close jack]

Re: The ATO issue - Is the Taxman going to chase you?

Just saying hi and to let you know that I am one of the guys from the 4wd site glenos mentioned. Throwing my support to the idea

[adamjedgar Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close adamjedgar]

Re: The ATO issue - Is the Taxman going to chase you?

hi guys,
im afraid this whole idea of forming a powerful body to pressure the government into action, seems to bear strong similarities to a kind of union movement. That is a really great idea except it comes at a time when unions are in the middle of complete identity and power loss even at state level (our states are controlled mostly by labour political structures at present i believe). I think you had better seriously rethink your strategy.

To be bluntly honest, taxes are hear to stay and whether you like it or not, when the petroleum reserves get alarmingly low, or an environmental factor mandates change, the government will come knocking on the sustainable door of diodiesel production, demand full scall production and tap off tax handouts from all who legitimately produce it!

The idea that a union of biodiesel enthusiasts will market excise reduction change in our current climate is absurd and not likely to happen in my lifetime (im 34)...if anything the opposite is far more likely. In fact, i think once the transport industry (the largest user of petroleum diesel i believe) start using biodiesel in massive quantities, the government will only have more reason to enforce excise contributions from all producers of biodiesel (even those who produce for their own use)!

I still stand by previous comments i have made in similar discussions as this. So long as what you do in your backyard (preferably a backyard in the middle of no where, away from objectors consciencious or otherwise) remains your own secret, why bother with all the hassle and hype about declaring to treasury..."i make my own biodiesel"??? Just make the stuff, put it in your bloody vehicles and be happy that you arent paying $150 per litre as many others do! (Just be sure you don't harp on about all the money you are saving to your covertly jealous, and of course, at face value, very honest and loyal neighbours!!!)