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Is a 3,600W element to powerful in a biodiesel reactor?

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  • Is a 3,600W element to powerful in a biodiesel reactor?

    G'day mates,

    I'm just getting started getting my gear together, it's taken me a bit of time but I finaly found a 250L Rheem electrical water heater and I have been told that the 3,600W element in the 250L water heater is to powerful for a reactor and I should buy a 1,800W element to replace the 3,600W element, is this true?

    I have a couple of spare 15amp points that I can plug the 3,600W reactor into, so I don't need to use a 10amp plug as could be used with the less powerful 1,800W element.

    Thanking you in advance for any advice on getting my reactor right.

    Bill
    Who says you can't teach old dogs new tricks?
    This old dog has been learning new tricks for years and...
    I hope I can continue to do so!:cool:

  • #2
    Re: Is a 3,600W element too powerful in a biodiesel reactor?

    Kando, my thoughts are that it should be ok but that is a lot of power/ heat/ current to be working with. Build in some safe guards to ensure the element is never on without being covered with sufficient oil to prevent a fire or burning out. Actually that should apply to all processors too.
    I have made an electronic temperature controller with a display panel to show the oil temperature so I can see that the temperature is right for reacting and the panel also has a switch to turn off the heater and a large indicator lamp showing when the element is on.
    Your element will draw 15 amps leaving no spare current for anything else to run on that circuit and you will have to run your pump from another power circuit if you don't want to blow fuses.
    Peter

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Is a 3,600W element to powerful in a biodiesel reactor?

      Kando, my thoughts on this are that it may be a bit too much power given out by a small element, By small I say the total surface area of the element is not high so the power output over this area will be high.

      I do not know if its true but early on this subject was discussed (3 years back on journey to forever - wash my mouth out!) but it still stands. High energy levels may cause burning of the oil and possibly further breakdown into FFA etc because the temperature on the surface of the element can get quite high. I worked mine out at 3 watts per square centimetre which is considered a safe level and use two 1800 watt elements each with about 2m of element length and a diameter of about 1 centimetre (in parallel to total 3600 watts = 15Amp circuit). This works out to be about 3W/cm2 (roughly).

      Anything higher than this may need a circulation pump as oil is not a great heat conductor and it will get hot around the element without the fluid being mixed. Circulation currents will set up as well helping things but I would say go the 1800W element make some estimates of its output energy density and perhaps consider a periodic circulation of the fluid (oil). The circulation pump need not be very big at all, as long as it causes some circulation to cause movement in the mixing vessel.

      Undefined answer I know but make a decision and try it out.
      Matt
      Biodiesel Bandit

      Landcruiser '98 80 series B100.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Is a 3,600W element to powerful in a biodiesel reactor?

        You may be able to make or buy a temperature controller for the tank, but what you need to do is to reduce the power being consumed by the unit.
        By obtaining a diode, rated at >500V and >15A, wiring it in series with the element, to allow only half of the AC power to be applied to the element, you should be able to reduce the power of the element to approx 1800W. It may be slightly more as the element will operate cooler and the resistance rises with temperature in these elements.
        This may cost more than buying another 3600 W element and fitting it, but check out the costs and have it wired by someone who knows what they are doing (a licenced electrician).

        Tony
        Life is a journey, with problems to solve, lessons to learn, but most of all, experiences to enjoy.

        Current Vehicles in stable:
        '06 Musso Sports 4X4 Manual Crew Cab tray back.
        '04 Rexton 4X4 Automatic SUV
        '2014 Toyota Prius (on ULP) - Wife's car

        Previous Vehicles:
        '90 Mazda Capella. (2000 - 2003) My first Fatmobile. Converted to fun on veggie oil with a 2 tank setup.
        '80 Mercedes 300D. 2 tank conversion [Sold]
        '84 Mercedes 300D. 1 tank, no conversion. Replaced engine with rebuilt OM617A turbodiesel engine. Finally had good power. Engine donor for W123 coupe. (body parted out and carcass sold for scrap.)
        '85 Mercedes Benz W123 300CD Turbodiesel
        '99 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my darling Wife's car)[sold]
        '98 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my car)[sold]
        '06 Musso Sports Crew Cab well body. [Head gasket blew!]
        '04 Rexton SUV 2.9L Turbodiesel same as Musso - Our Family car.
        '06 Musso sports Crew Cab Trayback - My hack (no air cond, no heater).

        Searching the Biofuels Forum using Google
        Adding images and/or documents to your posts

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Is a 3,600W element to powerful in a biodiesel reactor?

          Originally posted by Tony From West Oz
          You may be able to make or buy a temperature controller for the tank, but what you need to do is to reduce the power being consumed by the unit.
          By obtaining a diode, rated at >500V and >15A, wiring it in series with the element, to allow only half of the AC power to be applied to the element, you should be able to reduce the power of the element to approx 1800W. It may be slightly more as the element will operate cooler and the resistance rises with temperature in these elements.
          This may cost more than buying another 3600 W element and fitting it, but check out the costs and have it wired by someone who knows what they are doing (a licenced electrician).

          Tony
          G’day Tony, Matt and Peda,

          Thanks for taking the time to share your views on the 3,600W element with me, it’s much appreciated and gives me a few things to think about...and try .
          As I’m sure you know, some large water heaters have two heating elements but the water heater I have only has the one lower element. There has never been a second heating element (upper) in this unit.
          As I have no shortage of power-points in my workshop, (I put lots of them in when I built the place) having various items like tanks, pumps and such on their own points was and still is the way I plan on going, as I stated, I have a spare 15amp point just where I want to house my biodiesel setup, I also have another six 10amp points within six to ten feet of the 15amp point so I have all the points I need in the area where I need them to run a maximum of seven units, i.e. pumps, hot tank, wash tank and the 250L reactor.
          To control the temperature in the reactor, with the original 3,600W element or a "replacement" 1,800W element, I may be able to purchase and fit a thermal cut-out switch (similar to a thermostat but with better/finer temp’ control) in line, with the temperature set to 55 degree Celsius for the power to be cut, the power would come on again when the temp’ of the oil dropped to 50 C, 45 C, or whatever I had it set to.
          (I believe I can buy a thermal cut-out switch from the states (220V) that can be set to come on and go off with a two deg' difference in water/oil temp')
          It would be an easy job to fit a large warning light/globe to come on when power is on to the unit. (there is already a power-on warning light on my 15amp powerpoints)
          Because I have access to a large amount of solidified cooking oil from a fish and chip shop (100 Gallons in two 50 Gal’ drums plus another 50 Gal’ when the third drum is full) and I’ve been told on another string/post that solidified cooking oils make good biodiesel, it just needs to be mixed with another fuel as biodiesel made from solidified cooking oil will solidify at 10 Celsius.
          I will be trying hard to figure out a way to get the oil from the original 50 Gal’ drums to the reactor… so I need a not-to-expensive way to heat and melt the solidified oil in the original 50 Gal’ drums before pumping the oil to the reactor.
          To this end I’ve been toying with the idea of building a large solar oven to hold one drum at a time to melt the oil for pumping to the reactor and as the door to my workshop faces North and my biodiesel setup will be just inside this door, this may be worth looking at…even if it does take most of a day to melt a 50 Gal’ drum of solidified oil enough for pumping .

          I believe I’ll also need a few pumps, a small one that I can use as a circulation pump for the reactor, two transfer pumps, one into the reactor and one from the reactor to the wash tank. Anyway we’ll see how things go… running my Disco on Biodiesel is not the only thing I plan on doing with Biodiesel, I also plan on generating my own electricity to run my home, using solar panels, a diesel jenny, a bank…or two… of deep cycle batteries, a true sine wave inverter (4KW) and other bits and bobs but… before racing off to buy all the gear which is by no means cheap, I need to do my homework and make sure that…at my age…I won’t be spending a lot of cash on something that will never pay for itself in my lifetime.

          Thanks again for taking the time to share your ideas and advice with me, it’s much appreciated.

          Cheers mates,

          Bill
          Who says you can't teach old dogs new tricks?
          This old dog has been learning new tricks for years and...
          I hope I can continue to do so!:cool:

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Is a 3,600W element to powerful in a biodiesel reactor?

            Bill, If you consider using a second hand solar Hot Water System to provide hot water to heat a (shallow) water bath in which say 2 or 4 drums would sit, you could pump the hot water from the HWS tank thru a heat transfer coil in the water bath, heating that water and the oil in the drums.
            Insulation of the drums and the water bath would help to reduce losses.
            Life is a journey, with problems to solve, lessons to learn, but most of all, experiences to enjoy.

            Current Vehicles in stable:
            '06 Musso Sports 4X4 Manual Crew Cab tray back.
            '04 Rexton 4X4 Automatic SUV
            '2014 Toyota Prius (on ULP) - Wife's car

            Previous Vehicles:
            '90 Mazda Capella. (2000 - 2003) My first Fatmobile. Converted to fun on veggie oil with a 2 tank setup.
            '80 Mercedes 300D. 2 tank conversion [Sold]
            '84 Mercedes 300D. 1 tank, no conversion. Replaced engine with rebuilt OM617A turbodiesel engine. Finally had good power. Engine donor for W123 coupe. (body parted out and carcass sold for scrap.)
            '85 Mercedes Benz W123 300CD Turbodiesel
            '99 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my darling Wife's car)[sold]
            '98 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my car)[sold]
            '06 Musso Sports Crew Cab well body. [Head gasket blew!]
            '04 Rexton SUV 2.9L Turbodiesel same as Musso - Our Family car.
            '06 Musso sports Crew Cab Trayback - My hack (no air cond, no heater).

            Searching the Biofuels Forum using Google
            Adding images and/or documents to your posts

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Is a 3,600W element to powerful in a biodiesel reactor?

              Originally posted by kando
              G'day mates,

              I'm just getting started getting my gear together, it's taken me a bit of time but I finaly found a 250L Rheem electrical water heater and I have been told that the 3,600W element in the 250L water heater is to powerful for a reactor and I should buy a 1,800W element to replace the 3,600W element, is this true?

              I have a couple of spare 15amp points that I can plug the 3,600W reactor into, so I don't need to use a 10amp plug as could be used with the less powerful 1,800W element.

              Thanking you in advance for any advice on getting my reactor right.

              Bill
              Hello Bill,
              I have used a 3.6 kW heater (in a 200 litre drum ) and controlled the temperature using a "simmerstat" from an electric stove. This simply turns the power on and off according to the setting on the simmerstat. Simply turn it on full until you get to temperature then dial it down to hold the temperatre where you want it..Simple and effective! Just make sure you purchase one rate for 3.6+kW and do not use an old one as I understand that when they fail they to go full on, not off.
              Philip

              Comment

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