Land Rover Discovery 3, a good BD mechanic and B100?

[andrewrc Biofuels Forum Newbie Find all posts View Profile Close andrewrc]

Hi,
Being a newcomer to the BD world, I have a very keen interest in putting B100 in a 2006 Disco with about 6000k's on the clock.
As per the norm, the dealer shirks when you mention BD. I can't believe the ignorance although oil companies do dictate everything!
If anyone has anything to add about using BD in this vehicle I would love to hear about it.
Also, has anyone come across a good mechanic in Sydney who is not afraid of BD? or Brisbane for that matter? I will be most likely moving there in the not too distant future. I hope to further my BD 'homebrew' capability at the same time!
For a novie I have read with read with great interest, congratulations to all involved.
Andrew

[Robert Administrator Find all posts View Profile Close Robert]

Re: Land Rover Discovery 3, a good BD mechanic and B100?

Hopefully some of the good folk here can give you some better advice than I can, but until then, don't let anyone tell you that you can't run biodiesel in a new car. I've heard all sorts, like biodiesel will work for some injector systems, but not common rail (which mine is and probably yours is too). Especially don't believe Land Rover or their ignorant dealer - I've been there too and LR told me that their engine was "too highly tuned" to run any more than 1 tank in 4 of biodiesel. What a silly answer. I've done a little over 20,000kms in mine now and it is loving it.

[JHN Biofuels Forum Newbie Find all posts View Profile Close JHN]

Re: Land Rover Discovery 3, a good BD mechanic and B100?

Hi,
We produce Biodiesel in Ireland and we have not yet tried biodiesel in a new discovery tdv6, however we have done 10k miles in a peugeot 406hdi on 100 biodiesel.The only thing we notice was that in sub zero temperatures the peugeot was harder started on pure bio.but it was fine once it was topped up with 10 euros worth of normal diesel.The 2006 discovery tdv6 engine is based on the peugeot hdi engine so I reckon it would be fine but the BD must be good quality to work over the longer term in any common rail diesel engine. We have customers that have done over 100,000 miles on pure biodiesel in common rail diesel engines.

Jhn.

[Robert Administrator Find all posts View Profile Close Robert]

Re: Land Rover Discovery 3, a good BD mechanic and B100?

Hi JHN,

Welcome to the forums.

The only reason that people warn about biodiesel in common rail engines is the fear of oxidisation. As you probably know (but I'll put it here for the benefit of others), biodiesel can go rancid, or oxidise over time. In the common rail, you have a bunch of fuel sitting in it for long periods of time, often heated up to 100°C, then often sent back to the tank, where it can pickup some fresh air again. It is because of this extra heating and recirculation in the common rail setup that biodiesel will oxidise quickly.

As such, if your fuel meets spec for oxidation stability, you will not have a problem, but if it does not meet spec, you can cause some issues. The tolerances for oxidation stability are quite low (less than 6 in Australia, less than 3 in ASTM and I'm not sure what it is in EN 14214).

I've been running my common rail TD4 on B100 for about 18 months now on B100 for over 30,000Kms with no problems. I do not expect any problems, providing my fuel meets spec and has good oxidisation stability.

[gwalker Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close gwalker]

Re: Land Rover Discovery 3, a good BD mechanic and B100?

How can you tell if your diesel engine is a common rail?
George - Patrol TD4.2

[F-B Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close F-B]

Re: Land Rover Discovery 3, a good BD mechanic and B100?

Hi,
We produce Biodiesel in Ireland and we have not yet tried biodiesel in a new discovery tdv6, however we have done 10k miles in a peugeot 406hdi on 100 biodiesel.....The 2006 discovery tdv6 engine is based on the peugeot hdi engine so I reckon it would be fine ......

Jhn.

The Disco V6 is most definitely not based on anything in a 406....the 407 and Disco share the same engine though.

How do you recognise a common rail? Look in the owners guidebook!

[F-B Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close F-B]

Re: Land Rover Discovery 3, a good BD mechanic and B100?

I've been running my common rail TD4 on B100 for about 18 months now on B100 for over 30,000Kms with no problems. I do not expect any problems, providing my fuel meets spec and has good oxidisation stability.

Robert - out of interest, what oil service schedule have you been following? Have you left the vehicle unused for any period of time (like over a holiday or something)?

[Robert Administrator Find all posts View Profile Close Robert]

Re: Land Rover Discovery 3, a good BD mechanic and B100?

Robert - out of interest, what oil service schedule have you been following? Have you left the vehicle unused for any period of time (like over a holiday or something)?

The recommended service intervals for my car are 20,000kms or 12 months. This may horrify many people who say a diesel engine needs 10 or 5k services, but that's what Land Rover say, as they have some fancy little cyclonic oil filter. This is what I've been following.
I do mostly trips of up to an hour with about 50% highway cruising and 50% stop start urban. I've not left the car for long unused for any period more than 3 or 4 days, as I use it mostly for my work.
I've never actually taken the oil out and had it analysed, though I probably should have. The service dudes never mentioned anything to me about my oil and they knew I ran on biodiesel, so it would have been the perfect opportunity for them to complain on my last service.
I suppose my next service is probably due soon.

[F-B Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close F-B]

Re: Land Rover Discovery 3, a good BD mechanic and B100?

The recommended service intervals for my car are 20,000kms or 12 months. This may horrify many people who say a diesel engine needs 10 or 5k services, but that's what Land Rover say, as they have some fancy little cyclonic oil filter. This is what I've been following.
I do mostly trips of up to an hour with about 50% highway cruising and 50% stop start urban. I've not left the car for long unused for any period more than 3 or 4 days, as I use it mostly for my work.
I've never actually taken the oil out and had it analysed, though I probably should have.

Sounds fair enough for a mixed usage cycle like yours. The additional filter is to take soot out of the oil which may or may not be affected by choice of fuel (non-commital huh?).
I ask about leaving the engine sitting as we've heard of an engine refuse to start after sitting with biodiesel in the pipes for about 3 weeks and the fuel started to decompose, sufficiently well to block the injectors.
It would be of interest to get the oil examined but I don't know where you could get single samples done cheaply.

[Robert Administrator Find all posts View Profile Close Robert]

Re: Land Rover Discovery 3, a good BD mechanic and B100?

I ask about leaving the engine sitting as we've heard of an engine refuse to start after sitting with biodiesel in the pipes for about 3 weeks and the fuel started to decompose, sufficiently well to block the injectors.

I'd be guessing that was oxidation stability issues there. Biodiesel should not decompose/oxidise after just 3 weeks. It could also be that there was dirt in the lines that the biodiesel loosened. It is an excellent solvent/cleaner and is well known for blocking filters after cleaning out the residue that years of dino diesel leaves behind. Generally, this will be stopped by the filter before the injectors, but perhaps in this case there were some extra circumstances, as "on spec" biodiesel should not oxidise that quickly, nor should the cleaning power cause blockages after the filter.

[mattD110td5x Biofuels Forum Newbie Find all posts View Profile Close mattD110td5x]

Re: Land Rover Discovery 3, a good BD mechanic and B100?

> It would be of interest to get the oil examined but I don't know where
> you could get single samples done cheaply.

Hi All, I've used these guys before; e-Monitor oil analysis - A blood test for your vehicle - Australian Laboratory Services - Australia
and the report was quite good;


regards,
Matthew

[Guest Close David]

Re: Land Rover Discovery 3, a good BD mechanic and B100?

I ask about leaving the engine sitting as we've heard of an engine refuse to start after sitting with biodiesel in the pipes for about 3 weeks and the fuel started to decompose, sufficiently well to block the injectors.
It would be of interest to get the oil examined but I don't know where you could get single samples done cheaply.

Like all these storys that are not first hand, without ALL the details there is no way to tell what the real cause of the problem may have been and how the story may have deviated from the true and proper facts of what took place.

While I have never tried it myself, on Face value, I would find it hard to believe that bio would oxidise sitting in a fuel rail in 3 weeks as there is no air for it to oxidise with in a rail in the first place. If there were, then that would be a symtom of an incorrectly working fuel system which would be the real problem. The physical properties of a common rail system I can't see being any different to bio sitting in a regular injection pump, metal fuel line or injector lines and I myself have never heard of any issues leaving bio in them for such a short time.

Certainly over much longer period like a year, the bio may change somewhat but I would think that if it did in fact go off in even 3 months,
(as against something else happening to cause a blockage as Robert mentions) it would seem highly likely to me that the fuel was not up to scratch in the first place and the problem would be once again BAD bio rather than a consequence of using bio itself.

I think if bio were prone to going off if left in a vechicle left for 3 weeks it would be fairly well known with the widespread usage of the fuel now as I am sure there would be plenty of people using not it only in Vehicles but trucks, equipment and farm machinery that would sit a lot longer than that as a matter of course.

I have had bio sitting in bottles where there was some air for it to contact with for over 6 months and it is as clear and smells no different than the day I put it in there.

I certainly can't say that this couldn't happen, but I can see any logical or physical reason that would explain how it might.

[Chris Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Chris]

Re: Land Rover Discovery 3, a good BD mechanic and B100?

Hi All
A very simple way of getting a "feel" if biodiesel is decomposing or oxidising is to smell it
If it smells like "paint" you got a problem it is polymerising, if it smells "rancid" well it may be a bad conversion or nasty oil to start of with
Give it a bit of time and it will smell like "paint" since it is breaking down
Rancidity is like having a bad lot fish and chips, cooked in a cheap oil, with a bit of a burning after taste when you eat them, if you are hungry, but you not going there again
Most fats or vegetable oils will autocatalyse, generating heat, in other words an endothermic reaction takes place which destroys them, even setting them hard
They will then smell like "paint" it is the very same process that sets biodiesel, or even straight out oily rags alight self generated heat
When oil based paint goes hard in a can, it goes through the same process
admittedly over a long time something like a year or two
Oils will set hard, believe it or not, very quickly, for reasons not well understood, via a very complex chemical reaction
This action has been exploited in the artist paint industry in what they call quick drying oils, but it is still a hit and miss excersise due to the difficulties of the reaction process not being known or understood
Model aircraft makers often use a quick drying vege oil based "dope" as well as that the use of drying oils is common in the dried fruit industry, to dry foods such as raisins and sultanas
As some one said once "oils aint oils"

[edec Biofuels Forum Newbie Find all posts View Profile Close edec]

Hyundai CRDI

I have been told by Hyundai that the main problem with B100 is the greater viscosity of the fuel causes the High pressure pump to cavitate as it cannot pump it fast enough into the rail???

Anybody heard of such a concern.

[Slippery Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Slippery]

Re: Hyundai CRDI

I have been told by Hyundai that the main problem with B100 is the greater viscosity of the fuel causes the High pressure pump to cavitate as it cannot pump it fast enough into the rail???

Anybody heard of such a concern.

I believe that the current crop of common rail engines may well have a problem.If you wish to run B100, one soution is a 2 tank system. Smaller tank holding dino for start up and shut down. Whilst starting on dino, the bd uses engine heat to become hot and viscosity is improved.