Basee AMounts. NaOH

[Rodda Donating Member Find all posts View Profile Close Rodda]

I dug up a bit on base amounts with KOH . Could members please list their base amounts with NaOh. I have gone from 3.5 to 5 and still failing 3/27. Afraid if I go too high I will run into jelly again. My titrations are usually around 1.5.at fairly deep pink that remains for a long time. Should I be going till I get a real deep redish purple?
By the way Nick it hit -5 here last night. Any samples in cloudy wash mode [not dried] froze up bad.

[geewizztoo Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close geewizztoo]

Re: Basee AMounts. NaOH

If you are absolutely sure that your titration solution and measurements are correct and you're using at least 20% methanol, then you should have no trouble passing the 3/27. A titration of 1.5 shows pretty good quality WVO and should convert without any hassle. Have you checked your oil for water content by doing a hot pan test? If there's any bubbles or cracking and popping then there's water dissolved in your oil.

If the oil is dry, then there'll be no 'jelly' problem with adding extra NaOH especially with such low titrating WVO. I'd use at least 5g NaOH/L so try adding and extra gram or two.

Lastly, if it's still giving you trouble, try switching to KOH as it is a lot easier to work with and is less likely to give problems of this nature.

[Qwarla Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Qwarla]

Re: Basee AMounts. NaOH

My titrations are usually around 1.5.at fairly deep pink that remains for a long time. Should I be going till I get a real deep redish purple?

If you are using tumeric as your indicator you should be looking for a red colour about the colour of beetroot or even a bit darker.
The simplest test is keep adding titration fluid to some indicator to see the darkest colour you can produce.
-5oC. most bio will be starting to cloud or have already gelled at that temperature. That's a bit cool and winter isn't even here yet

[Captain_caveman Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Captain_caveman]

Re: Basee AMounts. NaOH

Gday
I use a base of 6 for NaOH and dont have any problems with gel as long as your wvo is dry, i found that when i used 5 as a base i had the same problems you describe
Thanks caveman

[Rodda Donating Member Find all posts View Profile Close Rodda]

Re: Basee AMounts. NaOH

Thanks Fellas. Some of the oil I've used had a lot of water, particularly the one that turned to excessive milkshake and then Jelly on the second reaction. Incidently I have recovered aprox 110 ltrs out of that 125 lt stuff up. I'm pretty pleased with that. This batch did have a bit of water in it. Bottom of old drum. Shouldn't have been so lousy, should have ditched the bottom end.
Qwarla I use phenyl red. I don't know how to use Tumeric. I take it every day though. A teaspoon full in 1/3 cup of milk. It's real good for pain reduction, arthritis etc as it's a very powerful natural antiinflametary. Also very good for platelet production & other things.
The titration method I use is 10 ml isoproplin, 1 ml warm oil, five drops phenyl red all gently mixed then add 1 % lye solution slowly until the color appears which as I said has generally been 1 1/2 ml. The worst was 2 1/2 ml.
I hear what you say Geewizz about water & jelly and of course emulsion.

[RODEONICK Too Busy To Bio. Find all posts View Profile Close RODEONICK]

Re: Basee AMounts. NaOH

your titration sound the same as mine except that i only add 2 drops od phenol red as oppose to your 5. I wonder if this changes anything?? I think Geewizztoo's advice is sound, KOH is simply sooooo much easier to work with and is IMO worth the extra expence. I have used both and don't think that i'll ever go back if i can help it. I believe your 2.5 titration figures as i have got these many times before maybe give capt cavemans idea of upping base to 6 grams a go it can't hurt if your oil is dry. goodluck mate

[tillyfromparadise Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close tillyfromparadise]

Re: Basee AMounts. NaOH

Hello rodeonik

The only difference between using 2 drops and 5 drops of Phenol red is the "brillance" of the colour.
That is why I like turmeric, a brilliant colour besides a better pH indication

[Qwarla Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Qwarla]

Re: Basee AMounts. NaOH

Rodda I'm wondering if your titration method may require a revision?
One important step is to blank your titration.
Procedure is, add 10 ml alcohol isoproplin/metho, add indicator, then slowly add titration fluid until the first sign of colour change. After this then add the 1 ml of oil and continue adding titration fluid. The count starts from after adding the oil and not the first bit of fluid that's added.

The amount required to blank will depend on the acid content of the alcohol used. Any rate if you don't blank you will get a higher titration number anyway.

If you want to play around and try tumeric all that is needed is after adding the alcohol, drop in a tiny bit of tumeic power, then procede as normal. Tiny amount defined as dipping the end of a tooth pick into the tumeric powder. What sticks to the tooth pick is about all that's needed. Dunk it into the alcohol and give the container a swerl.

[Rodda Donating Member Find all posts View Profile Close Rodda]

Re: Basee AMounts. NaOH

Qwarla, let me run that past you. Correct me if I've got something rong.
* Drop 10 ml isoproplin into a clean jar.
* Add 5 drops of phenyl red.
* Thenslowly add 1 % lye until first sign of colour.
* THEN add 1 ml warm oil.
* Continue adding 1% lye solution to acchieve deep red.
? Does the tiny amount of tumeric replace the 5 drops of red phenyl?
?If by not blanking you get a higher titration, why blank.? Isn't it better to err on the high side of NaOH to acchieve complete conversion?
Thanks for your patience.
Rodda

[Qwarla Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Qwarla]

Re: Basee AMounts. NaOH

That's about it to a T.

Yes replace the normal indicator with a tiny amount of tumeric powder.

Weather to blank or not to blank, That is the question?
For me I blank because at the moment I am almost to the bottom of my bottle of metho (hic just kidding,). But the bottle is almost empty and is fairly old. It takes about 0.8 to 1.0 to blank, so if I don't blank my titration would end up almost 1.0 higher than it needs to be.
It would depend on the alcohol you are using. Some will only need a few drops and in that case I would say blanking is not needed.

Full instructions with some pics are here.

Instructions for titrating with tumeric.

These instructions mention mixing the tumeric and using the liquid but it can be far easier to just add a little powder straigh into the jar. And if Isopropyl is hard to obtain metho is a good alternative.

[RODEONICK Too Busy To Bio. Find all posts View Profile Close RODEONICK]

Re: Basee AMounts. NaOH

Hello rodeonik

The only difference between using 2 drops and 5 drops of Phenol red is the "brillance" of the colour.
That is why I like turmeric, a brilliant colour besides a better pH indication

Thanks for clarifying that tilly. A little off topic but where is paradise?

Rodda I'm wondering if your titration method may require a revision?
One important step is to blank your titration.
Procedure is, add 10 ml alcohol isoproplin/metho, add indicator, then slowly add titration fluid until the first sign of colour change. After this then add the 1 ml of oil and continue adding titration fluid. The count starts from after adding the oil and not the first bit of fluid that's added.

The amount required to blank will depend on the acid content of the alcohol used. Any rate if you don't blank you will get a higher titration number anyway.

If you want to play around and try tumeric all that is needed is after adding the alcohol, drop in a tiny bit of tumeic power, then procede as normal. Tiny amount defined as dipping the end of a tooth pick into the tumeric powder. What sticks to the tooth pick is about all that's needed. Dunk it into the alcohol and give the container a swerl.

Blanking hey i'll give that a crack thanks for the tip qwala.

Thanks for your patience.
Rodda

Rodda you are asking good questions that many (myself included) are learning from so no need for thanks. Thankyou for asking the questions.

if Isopropyl is hard to obtain metho is a good alternative.

Qwarla how do you find the metho in comparison to the iso?

[Qwarla Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Qwarla]

Re: Basee AMounts. NaOH

Qwarla how do you find the metho in comparison to the iso?

I don't think I can give ya an honest answer to your question, Nick.

I may have used iso for my very first titration but have always used metho since then. Metho is about $2.50/litre I think. If I remember when I was looking for iso it was only in about a 50ml bottle and cost somewhere in the range between $5 and $10. Choice was easy.

I have heard that iso stayes mixed with the oil whereas metho doesn't. I have a glass that has a slightly rough bottom, and tilt it a bit and keep swearling it to keep it mixed.

[RODEONICK Too Busy To Bio. Find all posts View Profile Close RODEONICK]

Re: Basee AMounts. NaOH

thanks for your honesty qwarla. i appreciate it greatly. many say that its the same when its not. i have used both and have settled on the iso for its simplicity of use. but at the prices you quote i would use metho too.
I get mine for nix so thats my benefit. Onece again thanks for the truth not the false opinion.
Cheers Nick.

[Tony From West Oz Vice Chairperson of WARFA Find all posts View Profile Close Tony From West Oz]

Re: Basee AMounts. NaOH

To help keep the oil dissolved in metho, try using a container of hot water and immerse the bottom of your titration vessel in it while swirling the oil/metho/indicator during titration.

I have been told that this works with high melting point oils, so it could improve the solubility of your oil in the metho, to some extent.

I hope this helps, if so, please post how it went.

Regards,
Tony

[geewizztoo Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close geewizztoo]

Re: Basee AMounts. NaOH

Incidently I have recovered aprox 110 ltrs out of that 125 lt stuff up.

So not too bad after all. I have found that if there's a higher proportion of unreacted oil present in the bio, then it's harder to water wash. The 5% pre wash will help here, followed by a day of dry bubbling.

How do you make your titration solution? Are you certain that your weights and measures are correct? A very small error can throw your titrations way off. I may be teaching Grandma to suck eggs, but mix up a 10 x solution first (10g in 1L water) then dilute 100ml of this solution with a further 900ml of water. It's easier to weigh 10g than 1g and reduces the margin for error.

Also make a fresh solution each time you get a new batch of NaOH or KOH.

Qwarla how do you find the metho in comparison to the iso?

I have found that Metho and Isopropyl work equally well, but as others have mentioned, its slower to dissolve some oils and high melting point fats.

Similarly Phenol red and Tumeric are just as easy to use, just different end colours. Tumeric is much cheaper of course.