Petrol is just going to cost a lot. I don't get the uproar.

[Janiebabes Biofuels Forum Newbie Find all posts View Profile Close Janiebabes]

I understand that people are hurting because of petrol prices. What I don't get is why the Federal Government is being hauled over the coals about it. Petrol is going to get more and more expensive not because of government policy but because we're running out of the stuff, and that's what happens when demand begins to outstrip supply. The price goes up.

We *need* to bear this pain now, don't we? And to learn to develop other alternative fuels? Isn't that the idea about market pressures?

/vent. I'd be interested to hear what others think.

[kando Member Find all posts View Profile Close kando]

Re: Petrol is just going to cost a lot. I don't get the uproar.

I understand that people are hurting because of petrol prices. What I don't get is why the Federal Government is being hauled over the coals about it. Petrol is going to get more and more expensive not because of government policy but because we're running out of the stuff, and that's what happens when demand begins to outstrip supply. The price goes up.

We *need* to bear this pain now, don't we? And to learn to develop other alternative fuels? Isn't that the idea about market pressures?

/vent. I'd be interested to hear what others think.

I guess motorist are fed-up with the taxes placed on fuel by the federal and state government, I'm not sure just how much the tax is but I believe it's around 40% and that's just being too bloody greedy!
I believe petrol in Burma, a dictotorship, is around $1.40 per GALLON! I've been told that petrol in oil producing states of the middle east cost 18 cents per letre and as far as I know...resedents of Islamic countries and states do not have to pay taxes...collecting taxes from the people is against Islamanic law!
When I lived and worked in the Persan Gulf I never seen anyone going hungary, nor did any shop keeper or street trader ever try to screw me out of a dollar. Hospitals and schools were free! Perhaps our pollies should ask those pollies in Islamice countries how they do it while collecting no taxes!
I don't know why we, Australian pensioners and other low paid workers are exspected run our vehicles, feed ourselves and live on a couple of hundred dollars per week when our pollies, state and federal, tell us they can't live on the sallery "we" pay them! Then they increse their own paychecks by thousands! Plus they don't pay a cent for their state provided cars and the fuel for those cars is also free!
Australia is an oil producing nation! We also have so much natural gass that we're just about paying the Japanees and Chineese to take millions upon millions of GALLONS off our hands!
We could convert "all" our vehicles to run on natural gas, the government could quite easly fund that, and we could buy natural gas for 10 cents per letre and end importing oil from other countries but don't hold your breath waiting for that to happen!
Aussie may enter politics as working class people but they all seem to retire from politics as millionairs!

Now I'll put my soapbox away and go to bed!

Bill

[pangit Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close pangit]

Re: Petrol is just going to cost a lot. I don't get the uproar.

You can't be serious Kando surely! We have one of the lowest fuel prices in the OECD, with taxes of 38c/litre (+GST). In the UK (where I'm from originally) duty + VAT is 69p/litre (AU$1.43 ).

Also, in case it hadn't escaped your notice the reason the middle eastern countries have all those wonderful benefits you mention is because that's where all the oil is! They are massive exporters, whereas Australia is a net importer (we only produce around 40-50% of our oil IIRC, and declining).

As for Burma, I'm not sure if subsidised fuel is really worth it when you consider all their human rights violations and complete lack of care for their people (e.g. cyclone Nargis)!

I really hope you were just tired and pissed off when you wrote that post (it was 3am after all!), as it comes across as a bit of a dummy spit. We have it very good in this country compared to just about everyone else. And you call us poms whingers!

I agree with Janiebabes, in that the fuel prices are not the government's fault, it's down to global oil prices (supply and demand). I think the government is completely wasting it's time being distracted by this fuel watch scheme and talk about reducing the excise. We should be using these high prices to look at ways of using less oil, as this is the shape of things to come.

As for individuals, if your fuel is getting too expensive then you should start looking at your lifestyle. Drive less, walk/cycle/take public transport more, get a more efficient car etc. Anyone who throws their hands up and says things like: "I can't afford to; there's no decent public transport where I live; we can't do without our second car; I need the extra space/convenience of a large car" etc. is going to be in real trouble when petrol hits $3, $6, $8 or more.

I'm one of the lucky ones, as I run my car on veggie oil. However I'm under no illusions even that's going to get tough when everybody wants to do it. Even 2 or 3 other people doing it in my entire suburb will create supply problems. I'm also on the verge of selling our second car, and when I was looking at buying a house 3 years ago two of the things I was looking at was proximity to a railway station, and walking distance to the shops. Coming from living in London it seemed crazy not to.

I hope I'm not sounding like a doomer, but I have no sympathy for people who don't think for themselves and think the government should do everything for them. And anyone who thinks we are going to see sub $1 petrol again needs to wake up and smell the coffee.

[RODEONICK Too Busy To Bio. Find all posts View Profile Close RODEONICK]

Re: Petrol is just going to cost a lot. I don't get the uproar.

sean i think your missing one vital link. NOT EVERYONE LIVES IN A CITY.
food prices are direstly linked to diesel prices, country people are always being fogotten about: who grows the food, who raises the animals, who pays more for everything the answer country folk of course. If i were PM i would have major fuel tax cuts for rural and remote communities. City folk simply have it too easy in my opinion.

I agree that petrol will keep going up and that the govt aren't responsible for that. we do need to look at other avenues. but centralisation will not be sustainable.

end of my rant

[Qwarla Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Qwarla]

Re: Petrol is just going to cost a lot. I don't get the uproar.

Well folks check out this link.

Eventhough fuel prices are high and ARE going to go way higher we are far from being the worst off.

Also look at the tax component of petrol and diesel.

How lucky are you that you weren't born in Turkey or Switzerland.

[Guest Close Marc1]

Re: Petrol is just going to cost a lot. I don't get the uproar.

Petrol is going to get more and more expensive not because of government policy but because we're running out of the stuff, and that's what happens when demand begins to outstrip supply. The price goes up.

When I agree that new sources of energy must be developed fast and must be placed in the public domain to avoid patents being bought and buried, your above statement is dubious at best.

Market forces determine prices in a lot of different ways. One is offer and demand. Now world demand for oil, besides the media spin has not changed much, nor has production, so if offer and demand were the only forces price of oil would be at what it should, around 40 to 50.
The only reason it is as high as more than twice the level it should, is because of speculation from investment funds and oil cartels, both interested of the bubble to keep on inflating. Of course the tree huggers are also having a field day on this fringe benefit of we-are-running-out-because-of-your-4wd...

As far as your assertion that it is not the fault of the government, I find it hard to believe you actually say this. Government live off taxes from fuel, tobacco, alcohol, gambling, and their crocodile tears at watching people suffer inflation are ludicrous.
Look at the graph posted above. prices of fuel are almost identical in every country in the world, if it was not for the different amount of tax different governemts get away with charging their citizen.
Oh yes...it is all for a good cause.... they keep prices up so that we use less and so save the planet...yes, I had forgotten that spin for a minute.

Natural gas. We have aboundance of it yet we can't use it. Oh yes we have a grant to convert to LPG...once we are all in it, the price of LPG will get hit by a 200% to fund research in the green monkey that is getting an itchy bum.
I think that LPG grants should be income tested and given only to "working families" that earn under $30,000. Everyone else is a bastard.

[Qwarla Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Qwarla]

Re: Petrol is just going to cost a lot. I don't get the uproar.

Supply is what also drives the price of oil. The bloke with the 'hole in the ground' wants a bit extra income this week so he goes out and closes the gate valve off another 1/2 turn. Less supply so those wanting it will pay a bit more for it.

And if you don't think that's true here is a little presentation that might change your mind. It's a PPS file and about 1.7 meg so be paitent.

A frine of mine was over there a year ago and then there was over 200 cranes working on new big buildings. They work 24 hours a day under flood lights at night.

I sure makes one wonder if Australia is really "The Lucky Country"

[Captain Echidna Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Captain Echidna]

Re: Petrol is just going to cost a lot. I don't get the uproar.

Supply is what also drives the price of oil. The bloke with the 'hole in the ground' wants a bit extra income this week so he goes out and closes the gate valve off another 1/2 turn. Less supply so those wanting it will pay a bit more for it.

Smart move for an oil company. Increase profits, make your product last longer, thereby making more money, just so long as you dont raise it to the point where peole stop using it. (consumption is still going up in Australia acording to the CEO of caltex)

I have heard from a guy who works on oil rigs the oil shortage in the 70's was excatly the anticlockwise tap turning.

[kando Member Find all posts View Profile Close kando]

Re: Petrol is just going to cost a lot. I don't get the uproar.

G'day mates,

Well I do seem to have put the cat among the pigeons with my winge about fuel tax but lets face it, our pollies "never" seem to do anything but pay lip service plus give themselves large pay rises when they feel like it! Our pollies are the only people in Australia who “must” be held accountable by us for their actions or...lack thereof! How many people would forget the “honorable” Bob Hawk (I think not) while on walkabout was asked a simple question by an aged pensioner and Bob Hawks response was...Sod-off you silly old bugger!
In my humble opinion, that response by our then PM of the day, is true to what our pollies think of us common people...once they get themselves elected!
And no I'm not kidding! Sure I'm ticked-off with things but I'm a bloody Aussie and have the right to rock the boat when I feel our pollies are not doing enough for the country and/or the people!

We don't live in the UK, Switzerland or any of the Persian Gulf States! Unlike those countries we do have our own oil, perhaps not as much as Dubai or Iraq but we have oil! Take a look out in the Bass Straights and see just how many oil wells we have capped! But more to the point, we have so much natural gas that our government seem to be paying China and other countries to take it off our hands ...Just like they paid $15 per head I believe it was, to take a ship load of sheep (mutton) of their hands once the original country the sheep were bound for rejected them! Why did the government not order that ship...with the sheep still on board, back to Australia then distribute the sheep to those who need them here in Australia! There are a lot of folk here in Auss that would not say no to a feed of mutton at the right price!

Unlike the UK, Switzerland, Ireland and most other countries in Europe or Asia, Australia has so much natural resources we can be classed as one of the wealthiest countries on earth! But we must use our resources wisely and don't fritter them away in trying to impress others! Remember...charity begins at home! Or so it should!

We also have sunshine just about all day long...Even in Geelong most days, so "every" detached home in Australia "should" have it's own solar hot water system and it's own power generating plant with an inverter that would send any and all electricity not used by the home into the grid! That way every home would not have an electric bill to pay but could generate some cash from selling electricity to the grid and...Don't be fooled by people/pollies who say it would cost to much! That's Bull Dust! The cost for the equipment to do this has dropped dramatical over the past ten years!

Now what else are the pollies doing wrong...Oh yea!
We have two electric cars sat in a bonded warehouse in Melbourne...been there for about five years! These cars can be plugged in and charged-up from any 10amp plug! They cost a couple of dollars per day to run and the importer has orders for twenty or so...as soon as they're released. I believe the cars sell for around $14,000 each!
Why have the government not released those cars? Because they have no classification for them in Australia! Again...Bull Dust!
The Brits also had no classification for those cars in the UK when they were first imported there, so the British pollies created a classification for them...in 7 days! But the Aussie pollies can't do likewise in 5 years! Come On! Who's Kidding Who!

Then there are so many other brain dead ideas that our pollies come up with...like diverting water from up country from our farming areas to the cities...the brain dead polly who thought up that one should be taken out and shot! My little dog is smarter than that! Don't the pollies know we need “more” water in our farming areas...not less!

Personally for myself, I don't care if the cost of fuel goes to $5 per litre, I will still keep my Disco, you see I have been on a government carers pension for seven years caring for my dear wife, I could be on the age pension as I'm past 65...a government spokes person told me I should change from the carers pension to the age pension, I pointed out that I would still be caring for my dear wife...The spokesperson said that was okay, I asked what would happen to the few perks I got as a carer, she said I would loose those but I wouldn't loose much by changing to the age pension...I told her to get lost and stayed on the carers pension! Just another little sample of government trying to screw me out of a dollar any way they can!

During my lifetime I worked all over the world and lived in most countries and before becoming my wifes carer I was self employed and had a couple of small business. I sold my trucking company, a 40ft catamaran yacht, 40 acres of land in Queensland, just outside Childers with a permanent spring fed dam, a personalized printing business with all equipment and stock and a couple of cars and with the cash I paid off all my debts. We have always lived well within our means and...luckily for us...I don't waste my money on gambling, pokies, smoking, drugs or other what I consider to be crap! We can afford, within reason, to do what we want for ourselves, our children and grandchildren, our youngest daughter for some strange reason choses to reside in the UK with her husband and little daughter! But that's her choice.

We are by no means wealthy but we do okay, we have all that we need or want, all our bills are paid on time, no-one knocks on our door looking for unpaid bills, we eat very well and we help our kids when they need a helping hand! But! I insist, just like any other true Aussie, I have the right to knock our government when I feel they are not doing the right thing!
Remember Eureka!

Now I'll put the soapbox away as I have to go over the market shopping.

Cheers mates

Bill

[Graham Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Graham]

Re: Petrol is just going to cost a lot. I don't get the uproar.

I don't get it either. Why does the government trot out schemes to lower costs when it is a supply and demand problem. They could help themselves by not doing it. We all used too much oil and now we are paying big time and long before it runs out completely it will be too expensive to use in a personal transporter. Of course the rules wont apply to the military and leaders.

[kando Member Find all posts View Profile Close kando]

Re: Petrol is just going to cost a lot. I don't get the uproar.

G'day mates,
This is a long post but I believe it to be a useful post.
I know our government and tax system was/is a direct copy of the Westminster system and it has served us well over the years, but it has served “some” much better than others! Politicians being one group among the “some”!
Some members of the forum compare England to Australia or rather the fuel tax imposed by England and Australia, but truly...England can in no way be compared with Australia!
England, compared to Australia, Canada, South Africa and the USA to mention a few, has “no” wealth, zero natural wealth, of it's own to speak of! It does have a bit of coal and a bit of oil but to the best of my knowledge...That's it! Comparing Australia with England, or the whole of the UK for that matter, for natural wealth, is like comparing Bill Gates and his wealth with Joe, the local postman and his semi detached under mortgage home...There is simply no comparison!
So as England had no wealth of it's own, England built a strong army and navy, then they invaded other countries to rip-off that countries wealth. I know it states in the history books that England never invaded any other country, they were always “invited” into those countries but once England got it's big boot in the door, the upper class English and English big business helped themselves to that countries natural wealth! British pollies not wanting the upper class English and English big business to get all the perks and leave them out of the feeding trough, increased taxes and from those taxes, they increased their own salaries, so much so that a lot of upper class English and English big business families had to sell their ancestral homes to pay British taxes...and British pollies salaries!
From what I'm told and have read, things haven't changed that much over the years, tax-wise, in the UK! We Aussies, with all the wealth our country holds, should definitely not be copying the British tax system!
The following is a post from ??/06/2005, I copied it from: UK Diesel Prices - Amongst The Cheapest But By Far The Most Expensive - Transport News Network
Ultra high rates of fuel duty in the UK make diesel forecourt prices by far the highest in Europe despite the fact that the basic commodity price for diesel in the UK is amongst the cheapest.
The Freight Transport Association says that with the seeming inevitability of a $60 barrel price for oil, the Government's high tax regime is adding unnecessary pain to the UK transport industry.
At 28.9p per litre, the UK's basic diesel price is little different from the rest of Europe - Estonia is 26.6p, France 27.6p, Germany 27.7p and, at the top of the pile, Malta at 32.8p. But the picture changes dramatically following the addition of fuel duty and VAT. At 47.8p per litre, UK fuel duty is by far the highest in Europe - the nearest comparisons are Germany at 32.2p and Italy at 28.2p. When VAT tops off the mix then the UK forecourt price reaches 89.0p per litre compared with Germany at 69.5p, Italy at 72.0p and Sweden at 72.1p.
FTA Chief Economist Simon Chapman says, "It is ironic that whilst we have amongst the cheapest commodity prices in Europe for diesel, the UK tax regime takes our prices almost off the scale when compared to our competitors. Freight transport is a vital factor in our economy and impacts on everything we use or consume. As such, high fuel taxes make a significant contribution to the price of everything we buy. Future tax policy should seek to bring our fuel prices closer to those of our European neighbours."

One reply:
Posted by Harvie Gemmell at 22/06/2005 11:34 AM
What a surprise to find the basic commodity price of diesel to be competetive only to be sent into orbit with duty and VAT. Lets not be mamby pamby about this, its absolutely bloody ridiculous, I ask this Government, does britain want to become a holiday island, with no service industries of its own? Because thats where its going.

Shame on you Harvie Gemmell for having a go at your poor, I think not, British pollies and their greedy tax system!

Okay so what natural wealth do we have in Australia? We have to much to list here and besides, on this forum we are only interested in alternative fuels, home grown fuels, that would reduce our dependence on foreign oil imports?
(1) First, we have so much natural gas it seems we are giving it away to other nations!
We “should” be using that natural gas in our own vehicles right now. We have the technology to do so. There's a company in Sydney that sell a natural gas fueling system/pump that can be fitted on the natural gas supply at your home to fill-up your natural gas/diesel gas/petrol vehicle!
Read this report at: The 7.30 Report - ABC.
To the best of my knowledge, nothing has changed, improved for Aussies wanting to use natural gas in their vehicles, in the past year!
By the way, who do you think owns the gas plant that processes our natural gas in the NT?
No surprises here! Ownership of natural gas plants is owned by the following conglomerate!

Quote:
The North West Shelf Gas Project LNG plant is owned equally (one-sixth each) by Woodside Offshore Petroleum, Shell Development, BHP Petroleum (NWS), BP Developments Australia, Chevron Asiatic and Japan Australia LNG (Mitsui and Misubishi (MiMi).
End Quote:

(2) Sunlight...backed up with batteries and a silent diesel generator:
Just about every home in Australia could be generating more electricity than it could use and it would not cost a heap of dough to set-up the in-house power plant. The electricity the home did not use could be sold back, or given to the power grid!

(3) Each home should also have it's own solar hot water heater, backed-up by the solar/diesel/battery electric generating back-up. Anyone handy with a few tools could build their own solar water heaters, when finished a plumber would be required to connect the heater to the main water supply, a ten minute job and there would be only “one” moving part that would need replacing over time, the washer in the ballcock! You could go for a gravity feed system on install a small hot water pump in-line and have a pressure system...like those fitted to ships, large yachts, some larger caravans and mobile homes!

(4) We could be using electric cars, like the two that have been held in a bonded ware house in Melbourne for the past five years or so! Everyone could have one of those electric cars for local travel around town and shopping trips, then use your diesel/natural gas vehicle for long trips.

(5) How about we use the now defunct Mitsubishi car plant in Adelaide to build an Australian version of electric car...Then exchange one of those locally built electric cars for a petrol/diesel vehicle with each family/household! Subsidized by our government of-course!

(6) Water: Every year we get so much water in the Top End, the NT and Queensland, that people are glad to see the back of it when the dry comes in! Locals get flooded out! How about we “harvest” a lot of that wasted resource, water, for distribution throughout Australia to where it's needed! I believe it's the first time in our history that the federal and all state governments were of the same club, labor, so as our pollies are all from the same club, there should be no problem in them working together to build pipelines and pump stations to get water from the Top End to storage facilities in other states that need the water...like Victoria!

(7) Tidal Electric Power Generating Plants: Again in the Top End we should be building power plants powered by the incoming and outgoing tides. Such power plants are in use in other parts of the world so why can't we Aussies build such plants here in the Top End, because of the great natural rise and fall of the tides, the Top End is the perfect place to build them, then feed the power into the grid for distribution to where it's required!

I'm sure members of the forum can think of many other ways for us to use our natural resources and get to the stage where we don't need to import oil or food but I won't hold my breath waiting for any politician or political party to start the ball rolling. In my humble opinion, there's not one poly who has the balls or the foresight to implement any of the above schemes!

If we leave things up to big business they “may” do something but you can bet your life they will charge the rest of us like wounded bulls for the service once things are in place!

Like I stated at the start of this post, I firmly believe our government and tax system was/is a direct copy of the Westminster system but let us not forget, Westminster has “always” been known for it's greedy tax system and that tax system was the direct cause of the break-up of the British Empire! The USA being the first country in the British Empire to say, enough is enough! The yanks were of-course, referring to a greedy tax placed on them by the Brits so they opted out of the system!

What do you think we should be doing to make things better for every Australian? Not just the chosen few!

Cheers mates,

Bill

[Captain Echidna Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Captain Echidna]

Re: Petrol is just going to cost a lot. I don't get the uproar.

We all used too much oil and ............... it will be too expensive to use in a personal transporter. Of course the rules wont apply to the military and leaders.

You have see the fuel rationing act then?

[smokey2 Member Find all posts View Profile Close smokey2]

Re: Petrol is just going to cost a lot. I don't get the uproar.

Got the old HQ one tonner V8 out of the shed the other day. Runs perfectly on LPG. Time to start keeping an alternative up ones sleave. Cannot see how the new hybrids are going to solve the problem as they stilll use petrol all but half as much. If this country was really serious they would look more closely at CNG in the short period. Our cousins across the Tasman having been using this stuff for the last 20 years.

[kando Member Find all posts View Profile Close kando]

Re: Petrol is just going to cost a lot. I don't get the uproar.

I hope I'm not sounding like a doomer, but I have no sympathy for people who don't think for themselves and think the government should do everything for them. And anyone who thinks we are going to see sub $1 petrol again needs to wake up and smell the coffee.

Bloody hell pangit;25629, don't you have any compassion for people not as fortunate as yourself?
First of all, the cost of fuels directly effects the cost of just about everything that people need to buy to live/exist! Food, clothing, travel and so much more! And governments placing a heavy GST and/or other taxes on fuel don't make it any easier for most people! Most of the people suffering are not politicians or bureaucrats, nor do they belong to a union that can cripple a country if their demands for more wages to “keep-up with the cost of living” are not met!

Most of the people suffering are old age pensioners! And single old age pensioners are suffering more than couples! A lot of these pensioners served in our armed forces and they all had a hand in building this country! Today,.due to no fault of their own, they are caught between an old and a new pension system! And that is a big problem for them!

A lot of today's pensioners fought in wars to make this a great country, (funny but I can't think of a single poly who did “any” time in our armed forces never mind fought for our country) they, pensioners, raised families, bought homes and help build the country! I bet my life not one of today's pensioners, ever expected they would be steeling bread and food to feed themselves and their pets when they got to pension age!

Last time I checked, August 25th, 2006! A federal backbench MP's pay was $146,000 to $159,000, the Treasurer's pay was $223,000 and the Prime Minister's was $309,000. For perspective, the average full-time adult wage in Australia is $56,000. The average salary of the 10 best-paid corporate chiefs is $7.7 million.

On the other hand Australian pensioners receive the following:
Age Pension Payment Rates:
Status Maximum Pension Rate Per Fortnight, Single $546.80, or $14,216.80 per year ...Couple $456.80 (each) That's $11,876.80 X 2 = $23,753.6 per couple per year!
Note: The above payments includes a pension supplement that is currently: single $18.80, couples $15.80 each. Couples separated due to ill health receive $18.80 each. Woopie-Doooo. I believe that's per year!

Now then, when a man or woman working hard needs a minimum of $56,000 per year, or $1076.923 per week to live on, and the lowest paid poly needs more than double that, $146,000, or $2807,70 (those figures are two years old and lets not forget the poly perks...like free limousine and fuel)
Who, being of sound mind, can expect a pensioner, or anyone else for that matter, to live on $273.40 for a single person or $456.80 for a couple per week!!

I have little or no compassion for anyone who squanders their “fabulous” pension...or other low income on any form of gambling, when every cent is needed just to pay standard bills, the kind of bills we all have, like buying food, paying rent or mortgage, electricity, water, gas, clothing and footwear, rates, home and contents insurance, life insurance!
But I do have compassion for “anyone” pensioners or not, who through no fault of their own, are forced into steeling food just to exist! Bloody oath mate! This is Australia! Not Biafra or any other poverty ridden poor country! Does it make me angry? Blood oath it makes me angry! And when I see “every” poly gets a great income, great perks and retire from politics rich men and women...never having to worry about "anything"! Bloody oath it makes me wild!

Now I have to cool down and go get a meal going for my wife's lunch.

Bill

[kando Member Find all posts View Profile Close kando]

Re: Petrol is just going to cost a lot. I don't get the uproar.

If this country was really serious they would look more closely at CNG in the short period. Our cousins across the Tasman having been using this stuff for the last 20 years.

You got that right smokey2, but by the time our Aussie pollies wake-up to using NG, in any forum, to help solve our fuel problems...short term, they will have sold the lot! We will have to import NG from China, India and the other countries...who are at present buying "our" NG at give away prices! I bet we Aussies don't get to use our own NG in our small vehicles!