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Hmm Something very intresting about peoples lack of information.

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  • Hmm Something very intresting about peoples lack of information.

    On one of the other forums I thought I would ask a very basic and simple poll to see what reaction I could get and find out what peoples opinions were.

    Please I will provide the link don't register over there and vote on the poll just to view the results. I will post the results on here so people can see and it will not skew the results to our bias's

    http://forum.ski.com.au/scripts/ulti...c&f=1&t=081343

    I just had a very intresting statement made by a regular and have asked to find out what caused that opinion.

    quote:Originally posted by Vermillion:
    Bio-Diesel is a scam because you use more energy making it than what you get out of it.



    I have asked some further questions. Very intresting comment with what basis?????????????

    Anyone with any ideas as to why this would be a public perception?
    Dave

  • #2
    Re: Hmm Something very intresting about peoples lack of information.

    Here is the first set of poll results taken just 30sec or so earlier than the time on this post 8:31pm EST Aus.

    Dave

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Hmm Something very intresting about peoples lack of information.

      quote:Originally posted by Vermillion:
      Bio-Diesel is a scam because you use more energy making it than what you get out of it.
      Maybe this person is applying the same arguments to BD as used in the ethanol debate. I've often read this is a contentious point with making ethanol from corn.

      Like here:

      http://www.eap.mcgill.ca/magrack/SF/Winter%2091%20M.htm

      and here:

      http://healthandenergy.com/ethanol.htm

      I know David Pimental is a highly controversial author, I'm just putting it out there as a reason for this opinion.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Hmm Something very intresting about peoples lack of information.

        Attached (hopefully) is a repudiation of David Pimentel's 'research'.
        Peter

        VW Golf GT Sport 2.0 TDI

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Hmm Something very intresting about peoples lack of information.

          Hi Folks
          I know where David gets his funds(INSPIRATION) from.Will shock a few. Remember the cartel is big.They don't don't leave anything unturned.

          Cheers
          Sauman

          Peter thanks for sharing.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Hmm Something very intresting about peoples lack of information.

            Here are the current results of the poll Some intresting numbers

            Dave

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Hmm Something very intresting about peoples lack of information.

              Vermillion's response to my question asking WHY does he have that view.

              Yeah Azzski i was referring to that study, cos thats what we've been taught at uni. in one prac we actually had to make biodiesel and yeah its good, but boiling it for 6 hours to get the distillate is certainly not energy efficient. There is also the problem of actually getting at the reagents to make biodiesel, which all themselves require distillation processes which also use energy, so if you add it all up then its not as attractive as it looks.


              So it does appear that article is to blame and our UNI's for teaching a one sided debate Well not all uni's but some.

              Any of the Uni people round here have any opinions to add?? I wuold be intrested if it is limited maybe to a few or if it is the general teaching.
              Dave

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Hmm Something very intresting about peoples lack of information.

                [F Arial]quote:[/FONT][F Arial]Originally posted by Vermillion:
                Bio-Diesel is a scam because you use more energy making it than what you get out of it.
                [/FONT]

                According to Professor Matin Mittelbach, Professor of Science at Grazz university Austria. World authority on biodiesel.
                The energy coefficient (energy put in versus energy out put) of biodiesel is 3 to 1. Meaning it takes one unit of energy to produce BD and the BD will produce three units of energy.
                The energy coefficient of fossil fuel is 8 to 10. It takes 10 units of energy to mine and produce fossil fuel for an output of 8 units of energy. Its costing us to mine the **** more than we get out of it.
                I believe the Professor.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Hmm Something very intresting about peoples lack of information.

                  Originally posted by darren leonadas
                  The energy coefficient of fossil fuel is 8 to 10. It takes 10 units of energy to mine and produce fossil fuel for an output of 8 units of energy. Its costing us to mine the **** more than we get out of it.
                  That doesn't make sense to me. If that's the case, where are we getting the energy from to mine/refine fossil fuels? I sure don't think our oil rigs or refineries run on solar power!!??

                  Maybe this figure is for refined petrol/diesel, and it takes into account all the conversion losses in the electricity (made from burning coal) and other fuels used in the refining process etc. I'm sure the process of mining coal gives far greater energy outputs than inputs.
                  Sean

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Hmm Something very intresting about peoples lack of information.

                    Hmm pangit the only thing I can think of is that the Mining is not the biggest user of energy in the production from crude to fuel. Maybe it has something to do with the fact that Heavy crude might take a lot of Elec Energy to produce refined fuel but that comes from coal generally power stations.

                    Only guessing here of course.

                    Intresting though how people still say that BD is a bigger user or energy than it will ever produce! Can't convince some people some times! OH WELL
                    Dave

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Hmm Something very intresting about peoples lack of information.

                      Originally posted by raving loony
                      According to Professor Matin Mittelbach, Professor of Science at Grazz university Austria. World authority on biodiesel.
                      The energy coefficient (energy put in versus energy out put) of biodiesel is 3 to 1. Meaning it takes one unit of energy to produce BD and the BD will produce three units of energy.
                      The energy coefficient of fossil fuel is 8 to 10. It takes 10 units of energy to mine and produce fossil fuel for an output of 8 units of energy. Its costing us to mine the **** more than we get out of it.
                      I believe the Professor.
                      Darren,
                      You take the cake for being the most vocal yet uninformed poster on any forum I have come across to date. "California Lawyers" of your calibre do the biodiesel movement more damage than good. If there was an easily used multiple quote function on this forum host I may spend a few minutes shredding your nonsense and misinformation. Your understanding of renewable energy is severely dysfunctional and slanted by your dubious political agenda.

                      Have you read many of Mittelbach's papers? On what factors is this figure based? What "fossil fuel" is referred to?

                      Anyone with any knowledge of this field immediately dismisses you as a crank. I hope those with little knowledge have the sense to treat your assertions with the caution they deserve.

                      Stay in the shed mate.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Hmm Something very intresting about peoples lack of information.

                        Originally posted by pangit
                        That doesn't make sense to me. If that's the case, where are we getting the energy from to mine/refine fossil fuels? I sure don't think our oil rigs or refineries run on solar power!!??

                        Maybe this figure is for refined petrol/diesel, and it takes into account all the conversion losses in the electricity (made from burning coal) and other fuels used in the refining process etc. I'm sure the process of mining coal gives far greater energy outputs than inputs.
                        I agree
                        From the scattered reading I have done on the subject, fossil fuel extraction is very easy with low energy costs at first, then gets more energy intensive as you get further into a deposit.

                        Say they start with 20 units of fuel. They could purchase this from someone else, or it may have come from the easy extraction part of the deposit. Or they might make some biodiesel (sorry that last part is ridiculous).
                        If they have a difficult to extract deposit, say with an 8 to 10 energy extraciton rate the sums work like this.
                        Burn 8 units of fuel to extract 10 units of fuel.
                        Fuel balance = 22 units.
                        Burn 8 units of fuel to extract 10 units of fuel.
                        Fuel balance = 24 units.
                        If they burn 10 units of energy to extract 8 units of fuel, Unless they ARE using solar energy for extraction (or biodiesel), they wont be able to keep it up for long. Unless they use a side chemical of the process, such as natural gas, to power the extraction.

                        Comment

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