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  • Biodiesel, You can't buy it, and you need to join a club to get answers.!

    So far I have found these forums less than useful. I have read a hundred, "Where can I buy Biodiesel questions" and not one straight answer as far as Melbourne is concerned. People should not have to join a Biodiesel club nor get actively involved if they don't have the time, however it's hard to get motivated about the benefits of Biodiesel if you can't sample it.!

    Why is it seemingly available in Sydney and not Melbourne via various outlets..??

    I also find it hard to understand why a commercial entity is not attempting to make useful qty's of it , where is the Goverment's involvement, or lack of .? Petroluem based fuels have become a huge issue and there doesn't seem to be much going on to raise the awareness of Biodiesel as serious alternative, arrr a million questions and not many answers......

  • #2
    Re: Biodiesel, You can't buy it, and you need to join a club to get answers.!

    Hi Terra, I started this club for this very reason, I CANT BLOODY JUST BUY IT!
    bY JOINING A CLUB WE CAN LOBBY TO GET AN OULET , TO GET INDUSTRY MAKING IT, or as a last resort make our own.
    The guys in sydney have formed a users group, and CLUB together to buy from producers a reasonable (minimum order) amount.
    We too can do that. What we need is not another whinger with a empty plate , but a proactive doer with a full pot and wooden spoon.
    If you would like i will personally take you by the hand and lead you to a place where you can buy biodiesel, and all you have to do is promise to do the same for another person.
    The reason why its all so Cloak and dagger stuff is because the Federal Government together with the ATO do not want biofuels to grow, and will hinder it anyway possible, right down to making it Illegal to sell with out having all the right licenses and paying three times over the Excise bills Fossil fuel pays. Little Johnny and fat Costello dont care about Australians or the environment, they only care about sucking up to Multinational Oil Corporations. Why is Gas excise free, while biofuels producers have to jump through hoops held by six different government departments, then pay excise three times over? Because we waged war for that gas, and already paid excise with military spending and the blood of Timorese children.
    By forming a lobby group we can raise awareness and just maybe at the next election Australians Wont vote for becoming the 55th state of the US.

    I'm serious about starting a melbourne biodiesel club only users group, for people who aren't interested in makin' it, and just wanna buy it. Wanna help or Wanna whinge??Go to the club site and "Contact Us", and i'll respond.
    I know your frustration far better than you, When i started there wasn't even a club or a forum to join.
    Sincerely Darren.
    darren leonadas
    Senior Member
    Last edited by darren leonadas; 21 August 2006, 11:52 AM.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Biodiesel, You can't buy it, and you need to join a club to get answers.!

      Originally posted by TerraFirma
      So far I have found these forums less than useful. I have read a hundred, "Where can I buy Biodiesel questions" and not one straight answer as far as Melbourne is concerned. People should not have to join a Biodiesel club nor get actively involved if they don't have the time, however it's hard to get motivated about the benefits of Biodiesel if you can't sample it.!

      Why is it seemingly available in Sydney and not Melbourne via various outlets..??

      I also find it hard to understand why a commercial entity is not attempting to make useful qty's of it , where is the Goverment's involvement, or lack of .? Petroluem based fuels have become a huge issue and there doesn't seem to be much going on to raise the awareness of Biodiesel as serious alternative, arrr a million questions and not many answers......
      OH Yeah, about raising awareness, what do you think these forums are all about, And there has been more publicity about biofuels in the last month than i've ever seen before EVER. Sorry ? how did you hear about biodiesel??, AND when did you here about it.
      If you dont have time for a club, do you have time to write to your local member??? Do you have time enough to Vote below the line at the next election???!!

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Biodiesel, You can't buy it, and you need to join a club to get answers.!

        Originally posted by TerraFirma
        So far I have found these forums less than useful. I have read a hundred, "Where can I buy Biodiesel questions" and not one straight answer as far as Melbourne is concerned. People should not have to join a Biodiesel club nor get actively involved if they don't have the time, however it's hard to get motivated about the benefits of Biodiesel if you can't sample it.!

        Why is it seemingly available in Sydney and not Melbourne via various outlets..??

        I also find it hard to understand why a commercial entity is not attempting to make useful qty's of it , where is the Goverment's involvement, or lack of .? Petroluem based fuels have become a huge issue and there doesn't seem to be much going on to raise the awareness of Biodiesel as serious alternative, arrr a million questions and not many answers......
        TerraFirma
        You obviously have your feet firmly planted on the ground my man
        Darren has provided the answers you most likely did not want to hear
        Nevertheless you where sufficiently motivated to post in this forum which in a way negates your arguments
        When did any Government did something out of the goodness of their heart?
        Is very simple my friend you don't fight you don't get So?
        In so far as commerciality is concerned you need to be in a position to play golf with Johnny so as to single handedly put a 38.2 cents import duty on Ethanol imports so as to protect your back yard
        That is Manildra as well as CSR, legislation as it currently stands only provides the rebate for Ethanol produced in Australia from local sources effectively making importation of fuel Ethanol a non starter
        On the other front in so far as biodiesel is concerned If you make it and use it you have to pay the 38.2 cents to the taxman
        If you produce it commercially and wholesaling it then the retailer has to charge excise of the 38.2 cents at the retail level which is refunded to the producer after the producer has paid the excise effectively making biodiesel excise free with an incredible amount of paper work to accompany the whole thing
        The same applies to fuel Ethanol by the way, the consumer pays the producer gets the excise back, again neutral in so far as excise is concerned, no GST exemption exists,it is applicable in both instances
        That is the reason that E10 is hard to get Biodiesel is hard to get and that is the reason that the fuel multi's are not going to do anything to disturb a very nice situation that has taken them many a year to bring about
        For your information a substantial amount of biodiesel produced finds it's way to bulk users as it by passes the controlled retail outlets
        It is unlikely that with over 95% of fuel outlets owned by the multinationals selling dino fuel they will ever sell the stuff to the public unless they are mandate by legislation to do so
        So here is some more food for thought my friend Even though all of this has been said before at least you are having our curtesy to have it in one post
        Thanks Darren
        Cheers
        Chris
        Cheers
        Chris
        Never give up :)

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Biodiesel, You can't buy it, and you need to join a club to get answers.!

          Thanks for the reply guys, I got all the answers I needed. I have responded to Darren however you'll need to convince me about the government not wanting Biodiesel to succeed..! (I'll need a real motive for that one, not some conspiracy theory plse).

          I am happy to contribute where I can and hence will contact Darren as suggested. The cloke and dagger stuff I don't see the need for, however you guys obviously know better.

          In the meantime count me in as a proactive contributor..

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Biodiesel, You can't buy it, and you need to join a club to get answers.!

            Originally posted by TerraFirma
            Thanks for the reply guys, I got all the answers I needed. I have responded to Darren however you'll need to convince me about the government not wanting Biodiesel to succeed..! (I'll need a real motive for that one, not some conspiracy theory plse).

            I am happy to contribute where I can and hence will contact Darren as suggested. The cloke and dagger stuff I don't see the need for, however you guys obviously know better.

            In the meantime count me in as a proactive contributor..
            Need a real motive for the Fed. Gov. conspiracy!!??
            FACT- Quote Howard ,, "If the Fed. Gov. were to cut FUEL excise by 10 cents it would lose out on over 30 BILLION DOLLARS ANUALLY.!"

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Biodiesel, You can't buy it, and you need to join a club to get answers.!

              Hey TerraFirma,

              If you reckon that the cloak & dagger stuff is bad now, you should have seen it before we all got websites!

              I must say, that I understand where you are coming from. I would love to see biodiesel get mainstream acceptance. I would love to see the government actually helping rather than hindering biodiesel production, both for the home and the commercial producer. I would love to see it available from retail outlets and supported by vehicle manufacturers.

              I don't go for conspiracy theories either. The more I've looked at the biodiesel scene here, the more I understand that the powers that move against it are not some shadowy force in the realms of conspiracy, it is just plain faced, barely hidden greed. It's also a lot of mainstream ignorance, which is not going to change any time soon. I'm sure if you hang around with us all here long enough and start to watch what is going on, you'll see that for yourself too soon.

              The major oil companies have a vested interest in selling their product until the last drop runs out. They have a vested interest in appearing to the public like they have a green image, which they do very well with clever marketing, while still fighting any change which affect the bottom line, the status quo or any infrastructure changes with the way they presently do business. They will probably spend lots of time and energy not supporting it now, then buy up all the tech later so they can own the market when they see the time has come.

              The present government here is quite friendly with the oil corporations and a little suspicious of the new biodiesel companies. This has been evidenced in:

              1.) The extremely low (350Ml) target for biofuels set in 2004 by the government and the petroleum industry, (who they see as the ones to deliver biofuels). The biodiesel industry meanwhile sperate from the petroleum industry already well exceeds this target.
              2.) The biodiesel industry has had to fight for years to attain recognition of "alternate fuel", get tax/excise concessions etc. When they got them, the bar was set very high for standards, way higher than the petroleum industry has ever had and the testing/reporting/tax accounting procedures for this were not nearly as simple as they could have been.
              3.) The most recent government (2006) decision on excise and tax for biodiesel now makes petroleum products more competitive than biodiesel. Why did the government do this? Everytime they make a decision about these sorts of things, they of course consult with the petroleum industry.
              4.) When BP decide to start mixing 5% hydrogenated animal fat into their diesel in QLD and call it "biodiesel" (which it is not), within a couple of days, the PM's own website (pm.gov.au) has a glowing letter of praise about how wonderful BP are to have reached already half of the target for biofuels by 2010. Of course they also immediately received tax concessions by having it classified as an "alternate fuel", even though it was not biodiesel and had had no public scrutiny, emissions testing etc done on it. Why did the oil major not have to jump through the same hoops that the biodiesel industry had to?
              5.) The current tax laws effectively mean that if you make biodiesel at home, you owe the taxman 38c for every liter you make. You can of course apply to have this given back, but the paperwork trail and testing obligations are too expensive and time consuming to be workable. Many home producers would happily do the right thing, but it is effectively impossible to do so. This is why most home producers will not talk about it openly, for fear of the taxman. Does the cloak and dagger make more sense now?

              There is more, but I'm sure you can connect the dots without having to get into conspiracies.
              Robert
              Administrator
              Last edited by Robert; 22 August 2006, 01:28 PM.
              Robert.
              Site Admin.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Biodiesel, You can't buy it, and you need to join a club to get answers.!

                Why not Melbourne is partly answered by where the raw materials and conversion plants are. VP / Futurefuels are located at Moama and I assume near to where they can source Canola to use. Other plants are in NSW or QLD. It is easier to move the finished product rather than the raw materials. The amount of Biodiesel produced is placed in the local markets first rather than trucking it further afield and as the demand outstrips supply it is not trucked very far. Until someone in Victoria starts producing large quantities of Biodiesel you will probably not see it. This suits the large oil companies who prefer you to use their dino fuel. The guy in Tassie who is trying to source a quantity of biodiesel is probably going to have a big problem.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Biodiesel, You can't buy it, and you need to join a club to get answers.!

                  Originally posted by smokey2
                  The guy in Tassie who is trying to source a quantity of biodiesel is probably going to have a big problem.
                  20,000 litres!!!!! This guy isn't just dreaming,, he's on drugs,,trucky drugs, amphetamines !!!
                  This isn't somewhere else in the educated world, This is the most brackish backwater of the US. As voted by those who think little johnny has more of a brain than Golem of Tolkien stories.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Biodiesel, You can't buy it, and you need to join a club to get answers.!

                    Hi All
                    Once again we, as a group of interested people are being questioned about the motives behind our endeavours
                    Obviously Terrafirma is now, in someways a "convert" who by joining us will obviously be put in the same position in a not to distant future
                    In a way this is a good result, to in actual fact, respond to the man's questions as well as concerns in a satisfactory manner, which seems to have got him over the line
                    In another way it raises a lot of questions;
                    Why is it that in the face of well known facts about the damage caused to the environment by the icreasing amount of C emmissions, the wars for oil, etc etc etc the Government in this country treats the renewable fuels area with such contempt?
                    It obvious, the fact is that they are using band aid measures so they seem to be doing something about it, which really amounts to very little
                    To convert TerraFirma as well as all the others out there is not that hard we just need to get to them or they get to us
                    This in itself is a win for all of us, our common goal to promote the use of renewable, clean, environmentally friendly fuels, it is what this forum is all about
                    As far as I am concerned it is up to us to keep on doing just that
                    May be it will be left up to us to do so, as the powers to be are only interested in talking to their mates
                    The QLD BP fiasco is a perfect example of how such a small addition of biodiesel into dino diesel gets the PM's attention so as to burst into print
                    I wish that we had the resources to employ a full time "Spin doctor"
                    Such is Life
                    Cheers
                    Chris
                    Cheers
                    Chris
                    Never give up :)

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Biodiesel, You can't buy it, and you need to join a club to get answers.!

                      Originally posted by Chris
                      Hi All
                      Once again we, as a group of interested people are being questioned about the motives behind our endeavours
                      As far as I am concerned it is up to us to keep on doing just that
                      May be it will be left up to us to do so, as the powers to be are only interested in talking to their mates
                      The QLD BP fiasco is a perfect example of how such a small addition of biodiesel into dino diesel gets the PM's attention so as to burst into print
                      I wish that we had the resources to employ a full time "Spin doctor"
                      Such is Life
                      Cheers
                      Chris
                      Hi Folks
                      I think Chris has hit the nail on the head square on.You are very right in saying Chris it's all up to us what we do from here.How we increase the reach and get to people and put up hard facts to them.
                      Sahring knowledge so that we collectivelly gain.
                      Since we know the the doctors of "Leg Spin" are the call of the day.
                      And the weather is good,the ground just right,the team solid and is only becoming bigger and better.We craft a master plan with tiered objectives.Planned to the last dot.
                      Then....go ahead and carry it out.
                      And like all progressive process ,fine tune after every event.Both macro and micro.

                      But you right "man with the Tongs"...it is left to us to do what we have to do.

                      So lets do it.We can only build it together.

                      Cheers
                      Sauman

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Biodiesel, You can't buy it, and you need to join a club to get answers.!

                        Eventually David slew Goliath,, 'cause Goliath had only one eye.
                        Little Johnny sh#t for brains aint that tall. Very short actually. Its just those shrubbery eyebrows look dangerously flammable.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Biodiesel, You can't buy it, and you need to join a club to get answers.!

                          Chris, salient points indeed and exactly what I was thinking. People like TerraFirma posting honest questions in here are a wake up call for us to be less insular, more public and better at media relations. We know we need a proper national voice and a united, consistent way to express it. These forums are great, but they do seem daunting to the average Joe who just wants to buy the stuff. I could see TerraFirma's point perfectly.
                          We'll have to keep this stuff in mind when we go about setting up our National Users Group soon.
                          Darren, what's all that about 20,000L? I didn't see Smokey2 mention that
                          Robert.
                          Site Admin.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Biodiesel, You can't buy it, and you need to join a club to get answers.!

                            Go HERE man.
                            I'm sure this is what Smokey makes reference to.
                            Maybe we should refer this trucker to the "industry field", and see what happens.
                            darren leonadas
                            Senior Member
                            Last edited by darren leonadas; 22 August 2006, 11:11 PM.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Biodiesel, You can't buy it, and you need to join a club to get answers.!

                              Hi Robert and others here
                              I am on to it Someone is looking for 20 KL of biodiesel I think we may be able to do something about it even if he is in Tassie
                              On another point I would like to make

                              I had a request for a very large qty of Biodiesel for a European contact of mine
                              Believe it or not 5,000 tonne a month for the next 2 years
                              I went searching for it thinking that it would be a very hard task
                              To my pleasant surprise I was able to obtain the stuff in more than one country
                              We are working on the logistics at present it may even come off
                              What is the point of all the above?
                              Well if we were to import the stuff into Australia it will have 2.5% import duty added on to the total cost of the shipment including the freight component
                              PLUS the 38.2 cents excise, as it is not of Australian origin there is no rebate of the excise
                              On top of that it will have the GST added as per the Tax act making the per litre price a bit higher than Dino diesel before it even gets to the pump
                              Now if any one has any Illusions about our "Canberra clowns" in regards to the green fuel renewable energy etc etc etc this should be enough
                              There is no doubt though that they can certainly do arithmetic
                              To all the unbelievers out there
                              Cheers
                              Chris


                              </IMG>
                              Cheers
                              Chris
                              Never give up :)

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