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What is the environmental Difference Between BD and LPG?

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  • What is the environmental Difference Between BD and LPG?

    My number 1 priority is how to to least impact the environment. Which fuel achieves this aim and by how much? There is not a lot of digestible info out there on this topic. Any tips would be greatly appreciated.

  • #2
    Re: What is the environmental Difference Between BD and LPG?

    Well LPG is a fossil fuel, better than, but the same family as petrol, much the way that Ian the tolerable was better than his brother Ivan the terrible.

    Biodiesel can be made with little to no fossil fuel, but in practice most people use methanol to make it, which is generally made from fossil fuel. About for 1 liter of methanol will make 5-10 liters of biodiesel.

    Better again is straight vegetable oil (SVO), where the car, not the oil is changed. Generally starts are made on diesel or biodiesel, (kits are availible to start on diesel, but expensive) and when the engine is hot, changed to run on vegetable oil. Environmental impact is dependant on start up fuel and length of trips.

    Of course none of these are as good as a bicycle!
    cheers<BR>Chris.<BR>1990 landcruiser 80, 1HD-T two tank, copper pipe HE+ 20 plate FPHE, toyota solenoids and filters. 1978 300D, elsbett one tank system.<BR>

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    • #3
      Re: What is the environmental Difference Between BD and LPG?

      'What is better for the environment' is too much of a broader question. First consider that you must choose a vehicle, petrol or diesel to then choose LPG or Biodiesel.

      Then, where do you start counting your impact on the environment?

      There are a number of factors to consider. If you run a Citroen4 diesel on biodiesel and compare it with a Ford250 V8 7l on LPG you may think the Citroen has the upper hand.
      However if you use your Citroen 7 days a week 200K a day and the Ford you use to go once a week to church, things are different again.

      You may want to consider the environmental impact the manufacturers have to produce your vehicle and then may be Citroen is real nasty and gets parts made in India with the worst possible pollutants (not that I really know) and Ford is a true lady with the environment.

      Down to the fuel itself, Autogas has low energy requirements to produce however the cooling down and compression phase to bottle it, has high energy requirements so the greenhouse effect to produce LPG or petrol is similar. Using it on cars, the emissions of NO2 and CO are similar to petrol and the only advantage over petrol really is the absence of unburned fuel emissions.

      Biodiesel production if made from waste vegetable oil may seem to have a marked advantage since no energy is used in the production of waste, waste is there for the picking right?
      However that is a flawed reasoning. In fact if we want to be thorough in our thinking we must take into account the greenhouse gases produced to deliver the energy necessary in each phase of the process that is to: put a crop in the ground, fertilize it, water it spray it, gather it, press it, bottle it, deliver it to the fish and chip shop and then cook with it for a week or two until we finally have it for us to pick up. Process ( in our backyard sort of very inefficient way) and finally put it in our car's tank.
      If we consider every step of the way of the energy used up to produce a litre of waste vegetable oil, new vegetable oil has lesser steps and is therefore friendlier to the environment.

      So I guess that if you want to be top greenhouse conscious you would have to purchase your biodiesel from a large manufacturer who uses fresh vegie oil and has a very energy efficient process.

      However you will find that the big biodiesel manufacturer will soon run out of Canola oil, or be priced out and will go for imported Palm oil, cropped in Malaysia or other nice places were it is planted after clearing the rainforest, killing the orangutans by slave labour paid peanuts, and shipped in large containers for thousands of miles in ships that burn heavy fuel oil with no emissions control and push tons of tar, lead and other heavy pollutants in the athmosphere, down in the sea with the rain in the fish. The fish ends then in our fish and chip shop who buy imported fish, fry it in our oil, and give it to us for biodiesel production so we will then burn polluted waste oil and pump some more heavy metals in the air.

      What to do?

      I think that walking and the push bike are are better alternative.
      Of course I have not taken th manufacturing of my push bike and my Nike jogging cloths and shoes. If I consider that perhaps I have to rethink my reasoning. Running with a hessian sack over me and barefoot is of course a better alternative ... however ... the sack, is no longer made out of locally produced hemp but imported from CHina where ..... uh, I got tired of typing, you got the picture I hope.




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      • #4
        Re: What is the environmental Difference Between BD and LPG?

        Marc, agree with you except on one minor point where I beg to differ. Waste Cooking Oil (WCO) vs fresh virgin oil. To say that biodiesel sourced from fresh oil is environmentally friendlier than WCO is not quite true when you consider that WCO is a waste product - eg, the steps gone into making it are more, but it would normally be thrown out. Using a product that would otherwise have reached the end of its life as a fuel is technically less steps if you start the complete life cycle analysis of it from the point that it is used for biodiesel. If you want to grow a crop from scratch, there is a lot more energy input than if you just pick up a drum of WCO. I know that the WCO has had heaps of energy go into it, but it is essentially a waste product (the energy that goes into it for food use is for a different cycle and would happen anyway regardless of biodiesel). I have heard figures quoted to the effect that the energy required to make biodiesel from virgin oil compared to the energy given by the consumption of it in an engine is roughly 1:3 in the complete "field to wheel" cycle, whereas the WCO gives 1:7.

        I agree that looking at the complete life cycle is the right way to do it, not just at the emissions.
        On that note, the emissions from LPG are far better than petrol and the environmentally are less than biodiesel. I'll see if I can find some real info on this and post it up.
        Robert.
        Site Admin.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: What is the environmental Difference Between BD and LPG?

          I hear, (read) what you say and the debate is somehow academic, however, environmental issues are global issues and only make sense if seen from the overall perspective.

          On that note one could say that sex is the most irresponsible environmental activity human can possible engage in, since it is our very existence that sets the pollution cycle in motion. So is abstinence the response to our problems?
          You'll be surprised at some of the solution the extremist offer. Some say that if we all turn vegetarian, the large number of farmed animals will not be there and their methane production will stop warming the planet. I suppose they never let one go.

          Our environmental problems far from being a technical problem to be solved with some hippie notion of being green, are ethical or rather moral, in simpler terms, a matter of priorities.

          To preserve the petroleum based economy for as long as humanly possible is priority one for the mafia that holds power, so all the rest is decoration "pour amuser la galerie". The status quo will be perpetuated and technology suppression, economic and physical murder and other instruments used without a second thought.

          We are certainly living in interesting times, and when for some the thought that they are able to produce a viable fuel from waste oil gives a feeling of self sufficiency, survival in a changing environment will have to do with the ability to adapt to change on an ever increasing scale.

          A person I respect a lot told me once that the measure of true wealth is not the number of zeros in someone's account but rather the length of time that person can survive without working and without changing his lifestyle.

          The true test for the one of us that will still be around when the petroleum economy is tossed out, will be survival in a changing system where there is no boss or company to go to for a salary, nor a paternalistic government to ask for handouts. The world is getting smaller by the minute and we have become more and more personally responsible for our own future.

          Our grandchildren will ask as... what did you do in the years of prosperity? I want to make sure I have an answer and something to show for that goes beyond some foggy notions of environmental theories and that will keep my extended family in a strong position for optimal survival...uhuu, I wonder if we answered the original question? hehe


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          • #6
            Re: What is the environmental Difference Between BD and LPG?

            So, back to Scott's original question:

            I have found some info/propaganda about how great LPG is for emissions. It is on the LPG associations website here. It does not compare LPG to biodiesel just to Ultra Low Sulphur Diesel. Biodiesel has significantly better emissions than ULSD, but as to how that compares on the graphs they show, I could not say for certain. If nothing else, it is interesting to see how LPG stacks up against other conventional fuels.

            At least from an emissions point of view, LPG is significantly better than the other mainstream options, but as Marc pointed out, you really need to look at the whole life cycle.

            LPG is still a petroleum product and releases carbon into the atmosphere which has been underground previously (though less than some other heavier fuels), giving greenhouse problems. Biodiesel is carbon neutral or carbon negative, meaning that any CO2 released from the exhaust pipe is equal to or less than the amount of CO2 absorbed while the oil crop was growing (counted in the whole life cycle).
            Robert.
            Site Admin.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: What is the environmental Difference Between BD and LPG?

              Thanks for all of your replies. I too have only managed to find propaganda from the LPG industry - who, by the way, believe it to be far superior to BD once the full life cycle of the fuel has been taken into consideration.

              I really want to do the right thing by the environment here but my concerns so far are:

              1. Is BD the cleanest buring fuel?
              2. How much less polution and I'm spitting out the back of my car if I have to buy a big truck that runs on BD instead of a smaller petrol car?
              3. Will the extra driving that I will have to do in order to fill up on BD (I live in Rose Bay and the nearest VP is at Lewisham) offset any reduction in pollution that comes from me using BD?

              I don't really expect any of you to be able to answer the last 2 questions but I guess I just need to vent my frustrations to a few of you who have probaly wresteled with the same issues.

              Cheers
              Scott

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: What is the environmental Difference Between BD and LPG?

                Hi Scott,

                I've used LPG for many years in the past, having converted 3 different vehicles. The amount of fuel that you need to get the same distance with LPG is significantly more than with diesel or biodiesel. Someone posted up some graphs showing the energy amounts of each different fuel a while ago, but I don't know in which thread. (Geewizztoo, was it you, can you re-post them here?)

                As you can see from my signature, I drive a 4WD, not because I wanted to, but because at the time I bought it it was my only real option for a diesel engine. Still, it gets far better economy than a smaller petrol car. My previous car (Subaru Liberty) would get me 10-12L/100kms (would probably have been about 14-16 on LPG) and my current diesel gets me 7.5 even though it is a bigger car!

                Now there are many good diesel passenger options available, from folks like VW and Peugeot as well as the new Holden Astra Diesel. There is even talk of Mazda bringing out a 626, which if they do, I will buy next year.

                The decider for me was the fact that biodiesel is renewable and carbon neutral. LPG although offering significant benefits over other petroleum fuels is neither of these things.

                Modern diesels with particulate filters offer some pretty clean outputs and if they are running on biodiesel, even cleaner.

                We really need some proper stats though, not just my ramblings. Does anyone have some real info on this, or could someone find it and post it? I think this is a very important thing to know.
                Robert.
                Site Admin.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: What is the environmental Difference Between BD and LPG?

                  My biggest decider when I looked at the differences was not the amount of fuel burned or the amount of polution being pushed out the tail pipe but was were the carbon came from in the first place.

                  From everything I have found, read and know myself BD is a CLEAR winner based on the fact that the plants EAT carbon and then it is produced into a fuel and I burn it and it becomes carbon again.

                  Or looking at LPG or ANY of the fossil fuels for that matter the carbon is STORED in the ground till they dig it up and use it as a fuel. But then were does the carbon go after I have burned it? I could never work out other than it gets dumpped into the enviroment and just sits there till we have the next BIG whatever that will store it underground again.

                  I did not like the idea of digging carbon out of the ground for me to burn and leave laying around.

                  I am like Robert when I bought my Holden Rodeo it was mainly for the reason that I am doing approx 50,000km per year and I like to get off road at times and I get 9L/100Km in the city when I drive in economy mode light on the foot.

                  Burnning BD helps me reduce any further input into the enviroment that has come from a store and can't be collected again.

                  I am in the process of converting all our cars to Diesel so I can have the same net result for my family and friends. We are all looking at the astra or the peugeot or citroen just basicly due to the fact that they run an european engine that would be built and constructed to handle BD (I hope anyway) we will be reducing our further INPUT of Carbon into the enviroment.

                  I do consider BD to be a way to recycle my Carbon use there for not increasing the load in the enviroment.
                  Dave

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: What is the environmental Difference Between BD and LPG?

                    Someone posted up some graphs showing the energy amounts of each different fuel a while ago, but I don't know in which thread. (Geewizztoo, was it you, can you re-post them here?)
                    Here you go:

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: What is the environmental Difference Between BD and LPG?

                      Originally posted by Robert
                      We really need some proper stats though, not just my ramblings. Does anyone have some real info on this, or could someone find it and post it? I think this is a very important thing to know.
                      Have a look at http://www.greenhouse.gov.au/transport/comparison/

                      This compares all the fuel types, including BD, LPG, ULP and even "Diesohol".

                      Part 1 gives you the basics on each fuel, including emissions, safety and sustainability. Part 2 is more detailed and probably more than you asked for.

                      Actually, the Executive Summary is interesting. It supports what Robert said about BD from WVO in saying "the rules associated with life cycle analysis specify that in such situations the upstream emissions in generating the waste product do not have to be debited to the final product. Biodiesel made with waste cooking oil is thus the best form of biodiesel on a life-cycle basis."


                      Cheers
                      Chev28
                      Senior Member
                      Last edited by Chev28; 21 September 2006, 04:16 PM.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: What is the environmental Difference Between BD and LPG?

                        Originally posted by Scott
                        Thanks for all of your replies. I too have only managed to find propaganda from the LPG industry - who, by the way, believe it to be far superior to BD once the full life cycle of the fuel has been taken into consideration.

                        I really want to do the right thing by the environment here but my concerns so far are:

                        1. Is BD the cleanest buring fuel?
                        2. How much less polution and I'm spitting out the back of my car if I have to buy a big truck that runs on BD instead of a smaller petrol car?
                        3. Will the extra driving that I will have to do in order to fill up on BD (I live in Rose Bay and the nearest VP is at Lewisham) offset any reduction in pollution that comes from me using BD?

                        I don't really expect any of you to be able to answer the last 2 questions but I guess I just need to vent my frustrations to a few of you who have probaly wresteled with the same issues.

                        Cheers
                        Scott
                        First think of wich pollutant are you going to consider.

                        Assuming you have discarded the pollution created to produce the car since it is hard to determine and one off anyway....

                        If it is CO then your troubles are over, go diesel in any form you want. You can sleep in your garage with the doors closed and your diesel engine running and you will wake up with a soar throat. Do that with your LPG and you will be dead in minutes. (So don't do it...)

                        If you are looking at the CO2 then, the equation is simple:

                        How many litres of fuel will you be burning per week if you own an LPG car or a diesel car of your choice. Easy question with easy answers.

                        Once you have your figure in litres of LPG and litres of Biodiesel, you have to adjust it according to a factor of the environmental impact of the life cycle of each fuel.

                        However I give you a hind. You need some 30% more litres of LPG than you need petrol for the same performance in the same car due to the fact that AUTOGAS has less energy per litre and also that the system is a dual fuel and is therefore a compromise of tuning and therefore less efficient.

                        You need some 20% less diesel than petrol due to the engine's superior efficiency.

                        There is just no comparison.

                        As for your source of biodiesel, I don't think there is any reliable source of commercial biodiesel in Sydney. If there is, I want to know about it.

                        Have you thought of a hybrid car?
                        Converting an old bomb into an electric car would be fun. You can get a DC kit shipped from the states. Not sure about the registration though.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: What is the environmental Difference Between BD and LPG?

                          @ Marc - Place to buy biodiesel in Sydney, well, there are actually a few options, in fact, we're actually getting a 1000L fuel cube of it on the back of a truck for our picnic on Sunday!
                          You could also buy your biodiesel (in an unknown blend at an unknown quality) from Volume Plus, but I'm personally staying well away from them at present (as I'm sure you are too, judging by that photo you posted ).

                          @ Chev28, very useful link, I'll have to sit and read through it all some time.

                          @ Geewizztoo, I like that graph, very useful.

                          @ Scott, did you really expect more from us than to extoll the virtues of biodiesel? I hope you have a more rounded view on it now.
                          Robert.
                          Site Admin.

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