Hydrogen generator trial results

[Emporator Member Find all posts View Profile Close Emporator]

Hello all!

I had a brilliant time today at the biodiesel barbecue today! I thoroughly enjoyed meeting all who attended - good to finally put faces to the names! Thank you again Robert (and thanks to others who helped!) for organising such a great day.

I thought I'd post my results after the first trial of my hydrogen generator. It's just a simple little hydrogen generator I built out of readily available materials. The main reaction chamber is just a cookie jar, and the smaller "scrubber" chamber is just a smaller cookie jar. It generates "Brown's gas" (which is just hydrogen and oxygen gas) and seems to have worked quite well.

When I first built it I was not expecting it to have a significant impact. However, after trialling it on my little Peugeot, the results have been great! I have absolutely no idea how it works (that is, how the hydrogen and oxygen work on combustion) but it seems to have made quite a difference.

I've been keeping logs of the economy I've been getting out of the Peugeot - see the attached picture of my log sheet. The last entry made was using hydrogen. As you can see, I've got a good increase in economy! The Peugeot has a 60 litre fuel tank, so 1022km using 60 litres of biodiesel is 5.87 litres used per 100km, or 48.14 miles per gallon. This was combined driving, as well as using the air-conditioner and occasionally giving it a bootfull.

Like I said earlier, I have absolutely no idea how it works, so I'm not able to elaborate further on the process. If anyone out there knows how it works I'd love to know.

I've noticed the Peugeot has (or seems to have) a slight increase in torque, and the idle speed of the engine has gone up ever so slightly. Apart from this I've not known any other difference, apart from the increase in economy.

The hydrogen generator sits in the boot of the Peugeot, and doesn't take up a great deal of room. I've posted a picture of the family chihuahua sitting next to it to give an idea of scale.

As you can see, the generator runs off a 12 volt battery. It draws about 5 amps, and this can be adjusted by the amount of electrolyte added to the water in the chamber. The electrolyte I'm using is something we're all familiar with - NaOH (sodium hydroxide).

More results to come soon!

[Guest Close David]

Re: Hydrogen generator trial results

Hey Tom,

I think you had quite a few people enthralled with your... device?... especially in how well made and simple it was. You will be amused to know I came home today and rigged up something in an old coffee jar.

I didn't enclose the llid but the loud pops of the Hydrogen when I put a flame in the neck of the jar certainly let me know that even the most crudely made devise does make gas. Of course if 12 volts works, 24 has to work better right? You bet it does! The amperage seemed to shoot up exponentially though and I would guess buy the sudden heat build up in the not too light cables I was using, the draw was probably around 20-30 amps. The heat build up in the jar was sufficent to make me wonder if this process couldn't also be put to use as some sort of fuel heater by using an exchanger of some sort.

From talking to some others that were interested in your devise, I think it is one of these thngs that some of us will have to make for ourselves to believe it really works. This is certainly no comment on your own credibility as you impressed everyone I think, but rather one of those things that seems so simple it is just difficult to believe how effective it can be.

I would like to find some decent jars to rig something airtight up myself and give it a go on the Bio- Gen My idea would be to put a set load on it and then measure fuel consumption over a given time ( or vice versa) both with and without the gas generator.

I think you mentioned that you noticed something like a 30% improvement in your consumption, did I hear this correctly? Certainly if this is the result you have got, it should be easy for me to see the differences in an unscientific and imperfect test.

Knowing nothing about these things ( except I could probably boil water with them) so is there any guide as to what size devise to make in relation to your engine size for best effect? Also, is there a reccomended low and high electrolyte level per litre of water?

If there are any other fundamental principals of this technology you could fill me in on, I'd be keen to learn what I can to make my tests as valid as possible.

[Terry Syd Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Terry Syd]

Re: Hydrogen generator trial results

Yes, please keep us advised. You mentioned at the picnic that you charged the battery overnight on the mains at home, rather than run it off the alternator. How much does the battery discharge during a day of driving? For that matter, how many hours of driving?

[Emporator Member Find all posts View Profile Close Emporator]

Re: Hydrogen generator trial results

Hi guys!

David - that's cool that you built a hydrogen generator! It's amazing how simple it is, isn't it? Hydrogen by itself is flammable, but when mixed with air it becomes very explosive. I've had two hydrogen fires - one on purpose and one accidental. It's amazing what you can learn both at college and in the garage!

I like your idea of using the generator as a fuel heater - I'd not thought of this! The reaction will generate quite a bit of heat, so it might be ideal to warm diesel, biodiesel, SVO or WVO.

I wouldn't be surprised if there's a given ratio of the voltage used and the gas output. Everything I've studied in electrochemistry suggests that there's almost always a relationship with things like this.

Yep, you heard right indeed! I'm getting roughly a 30% increase in economy. My normal average consumption is just under 800km, so given that I got a further 222 km, this is about right. Mind you, I could have gotten more - I used the air-conditioner and did some city running too. Oh, and I also put my foot down a few times to climb hills and generally show off.

I used about a tablespoon of NaOH in approximately 1 litre of water to make up the solution that goes in the reaction chamber. Later on I'll try to do an assessment of how much NaOH to use to get a given volume of gas.

Generally, I use the amount of amps being drawn as a guide to gas output. To do this, I fill the reaction chamber with just water, and then turn the generator on. I use an ammeter in series with the battery, and with just water in the chamber it draws nothing, or virtually nothing. I then make up a solution (about 200ml) of water and two tablespoons of NaOH. Making sure that the NaOH is thoroughly dissolved, I pour small amounts of the saturated solution into the reactor until the ammeter draws 5 amps. If I wanted to draw more amperage, I'd simply add more saturated NaOH solution. Simple! As you already see, you don't need much NaOH at all. A few grams will do the trick!

Terry - The battery that I use to power the generator is an Iveco truck battery, rated at 110 ampere hours. So, if I'm only drawing 5 amps out of it, it should be able to sustain this for many hours! Mind you, I don't think the battery is in good condition as I have to re-charge it often. I've yet to rig up a permanent ammeter to see the conditions that it runs under when in use. As soon as I have some more data I'll post it here.

Let me know how your own experiments work guys! I'd love to see others make their own devices and hopefully get the sort of gains I've been experiencing!

[pangit Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close pangit]

Re: Hydrogen generator trial results

For those of us who weren't there today, can somebody please explain what this hydrogen generator does and how it works?

[nic0 Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close nic0]

Re: Hydrogen generator trial results

I think this is what he is using. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_...ride_fuel_cell

[Sandman Donating Member Find all posts View Profile Close Sandman]

Re: Hydrogen generator trial results

Hi all,
This is my first post, have been reading and absorbing a lot of the information in the forum durying the past couple of weeks, and I must say there is some great stuff hapenning out there. Now I thought that I would contribute some information that I have regarding Hydrogen. Many years ago when I was a wee lad, I did a a mechanical course at the local Techinal college. During that course one of my lectures told me about water injection straight into the intake manifold by means of a micro spray or a drip feed. The water was heated by the engine bay heat so it would atomise better. The result that the water molecuel in the superheated combustion chamber seperated to produce hydrogen and oxygen, hence giving a hotter burn to the combustion of the fuel being used. Hence more power and economy. It works well, the only problem is determining the right amount of water feed into the intake manofold to determin the best outcome without over doing it and creating damage to the cylinder walls from to much water not combusted or to much heat generated from the improved combustion. This lecturer found this out by seizing the aluminuim piston in his BSA motorbike whilst doing a cool 100mph (well that was the way he told it)
I know that there has been development of this method over the years perhaps others with more knowledge can expand on this idea a little.

I have also found a site that may be of interest to those wanting to build a hydrogen generator. (unfortunately it will cost a few $ to find out) anyhow here it is. www.knowledgepublications.com.

Just out of interest Emporator how is yours constructed and how does it feed the gas into the engine.

Cheers
Sandman

[Emporator Member Find all posts View Profile Close Emporator]

Re: Hydrogen generator trial results

Hello nic0!

I had a look at the link you posted, but it's totally different to the generator I've built. Still, it's interesting reading!

Here's a link with the kind of system I've built - http://www.okhydrogen.com/hydro-gen.html

[Alga Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Alga]

Re: Hydrogen generator trial results

I'm also very interested in this generator and would like to know how to connect it up to a diesel engine. I've got 6 diesel engines of various sizes and would love to do some tests with different ones, especially my 671 GM 2 stroke that drives my boat.

At the moment I'm a long way from home and won't get back until mid November, hopefully others will have made some good observations by then. The quick read I made on browns gas, some make pretty spectacular claims, flux less welding, cut any metal, can make glass with its temperatures, yet doesn't burn you. Can you compress and bottle it for cooking, so when your camping you can heat water, cook your food and run the car. One site said you get 1800 lt of browns gas from a litre of water, it would be interesting to see how much you use in an engine. You could run a home heating/hot water system from the heat of the generator. Maybe you could run a small steam turbine with it and generate electricity, the mind boggles.

Sounds like I could run the house with it and recharge with solar and wind. What about a combination of ethanol and browns gas for petrol engines, although I'd stand well back when you fired it up. I look forward to hearing more, if it sounds good I may make one myself and test it whilst we travel and see how it goes in N.T. conditions. I agree with David regarding sealing it to avoid leaks, any one for browns gas coffee.

This site is interesting

http://www.nottaughtinschools.com/Yu...Interview.html

[Guest Close leongster]

Re: Hydrogen generator trial results

Knowing nothing about these things ( except I could probably boil water with them) so is there any guide as to what size devise to make in relation to your engine size for best effect? Also, is there a reccomended low and high electrolyte level per litre of water?

If there are any other fundamental principals of this technology you could fill me in on, I'd be keen to learn what I can to make my tests as valid as possible.

Got a couple figures off in the initial post, so I've updated the nos here:

Potassium Hydroxide (KOH) is a good electrolyte. Start with 3% by total volume.

Try to use distilled water.

You don't really need high voltage as the excess is being converted to heat.

1.24-1.9 volts at 25 degrees celcius will begin the process of electrolysis. If the voltage goes any higher you're just producing heat. The aim is to produce hydrogen-on-demand.


Scaling: A 1-litre cell running 12 volts with straight plumbing into the air intake will last you approximately 70,000 meters on a 1600cc gasoline car with around 30% improvements in FE. (Results with diesel unknown.) This is very short range due to the water boiling off from the excess heat.

The brown scum produced by the cell contains chromium, a heavy metal - dispose with care.

Use 316 stainless where possible to prevent corrosion. Avoid glass containers, unless you separate and vent the hydrogen and oxygen safely.

An in-line water filter can be used for basic cell building - use the ones with the clear polycarbonate bowls.

Keep the gas chamber portion of the container small. Less gas = smaller explosion (if accident happens.)

Install a check valve where possible on the gas line to prevent backflash.

Hint: Solar arrays, or photovoltaic cells are good source of power.




Regards


Leongster

[Sandman Donating Member Find all posts View Profile Close Sandman]

Re: Hydrogen generator trial results

I have been thinking about the design of the hydrogen cell for larger engines. For example a 7.3l V8 Diesel that I have in my F350. Using the formula of 1 ltr cell per 1.6 Ltr engine capacity it would take a cell of between 4.5Ltr and 5 Ltr to produce enough gas to feed the engine.
How much amperage would be required to power a 5 plate cell?
The other thought was could you increase the amperage to produce more gas when the engine is under load to improve power response?

With this senario I was thinking of designing a cell using a NZ70 transluent Battery case with 5 stainless 316 plates and 5 copper plates is series connected to the existing poles and reassembled to look like an ordinary battrey.
The Air cleaner intake on my F350 actually sucks any hydrogen produced by the battrey into the engine any how. As the second battrey (which I would replace with the H cell) is enclosed in a plastic box and the air intake is sucked from the front of the radiator and around the battrey then into the engine.
Thoughts and comments anyone.

Cheers
Sandman.

[Guest Close leongster]

Re: Hydrogen generator trial results

Sandman,

The tank size above was for a 1.6 litre Gasoline (Petrol) driven vehicle.

PM me and I'll send you a list of resources you can study.

regards


Leongster

[Guest Close David]

Re: Hydrogen generator trial results

Hey Sandman,

Some thoughts from my vast experience with these things: Well I have seen one, spoken to someone who has one and made something that looks like one and bought the bits to make my own this morning ! )

I don't believe that copper or dis similar metals are nessacary like in a battery. I think any metal will do for the electrode plates. Stainless seems to be the prefered option for corrosion resistance. I will be using mild steel for mine simply because I have loads of it up the garage and I only intend my first cell to be a proof of theroy unit anyway.

I think gas production is not as dependent on the size of the cell as the amount of current and electrolyte you put through it. I believe that you could have either a 1L or a 5L cell producing the same amount of gas up to a point. I understand that it is all a balance and that larger plates will give the same amount of gas as a smaller cell but with less amps and more dilute electrolyte. A bit like Amps, Volts and watts in electricity if you like.
I think a larger cell may be benificial over a smaller one just from the heat buildup POV. Admittedly, I put some decent amps through the small cell I made but I was surprised at how quickly it heated up. I think essentialy you are replicating any electric Jug so I believe you would be better to dissapate this heat with as large an amount of electrolyte as practical. For this reason, I think if you can build your cell in a battery case and seal it up ok ( although in this case it probably matters less) then your idea is quite brilliant. The air being drawn over the cell will also help cool it so the water doesnt boil and isn't lost as steam rather than gas.

Toms gas gen was a 2 chamber cell and wash configuration in that the gas was bubbled through water after it left the electroylisis cell to reduce any caustic vapours being drawn into the engine. This seems like a good practice to me and may also help the process further by adding water vapour to the gas which would be a benifit in itself. Many water injection setups just basically draw air through something like an aquarium airstone to break up the bubbles in a vessel of water and the water laden air is then fed to the engine. This may be something to try in the feed from the gas cell to the wash cell.
Were you thinking of going direct into the intake from the cell or are you planning to divide your battery box in half to seperate and make provision for the cell and wash water?

From the years of reasearch I have done into browns gas ( Well, OK, maybe 3-4 hours reading on the net so far) The reaction requires more power to be put in than the energy value of the gas you get out. Most people seem in agreeance of this. As a power booster, the drag on your engine from the alternator generating more current to produce more gas would be a negative power drain on your engine. In the application we are tallking about here, we are relating a small amount of gas to cause a vehicle to gain increased economy.
In the fumigation application, I haven't read anything to say why it works, but anyone conversant with engine design would know it is not through improved combustion of fuel that would otherwise be blown out the tailpipe unburned.

That's my thought and comments for the little they are probably worth

Myself and a partner in oily crime are planning a test this weekend with my small stationary Diesel engine. We plan to put a set load on the engine and run it with and without the gas gen and measure the time a given amount of fuel is consumed. The engine will be loaded with a fixed load and then the load of the gas cell itself will be added to see if there is any difference with and without the gas gen attached. I am planning to document the tests as well as I can and being sceptics, you can bet if we post something up on Tuesday that says it made an improvement, by wednesday we'll have them fitted to our own vehicles.

[Sandman Donating Member Find all posts View Profile Close Sandman]

Re: Hydrogen generator trial results

Thanks David for your ideas. When I get some time I intend to make a battery hydrogen generator and test this theory. I like your approach using the mild steel, didn't think down that track.
I have a 175amp alternator in the ute so I have plenty of juice to play with.
I agree with you in the fact that there are a lot of ideas on the net at the moment regarding hydrogen generators. I am going to attach some interesting links at the end of this post for perusal and further discussion.
I like the idea of "washing the gas" however I doubt that the caustic fumes would be much of a problem given the amount of air flow required for a 7.3lt engine, they would be fairly diluted. However the water vapor theory may help to reduce inlet temps and thicken the air a bit thereby increasing the oxygen levels in the combustion chamber. (I have been reading up on water injection for diesels. see www.waterinjection.co.nz) I will ponder this idea further and read up more.
I know from years of driving headers and trucks at night that there is more power and better economy gained form the moisture laden cool air that from hot dry air so this idea should work.
I like the project you are working on regarding the small engine. I have just read the plans that I purchased on ebay today for a simular set up on a genset. Except that they use urine and heat instead of water, lye and electricity to produce hydrogen and nitrogen. The seller said to share the plans around so what better place to do it than here. Read and enjoy. I will have to spread them out over two posts as they won't all fit in this one.


I have also stumbled on a new process for bio diesel using rock salt and server agitation (no heat, caustic or methanol ) see www.hydrogenappliances.com/salt.html Comments and feed back welcome.
I would just like to say that I find this forum of immense value in disseminating ideas and gathering information, its great to share ideas and get feed back from fellow members.
Thanks again, and keep it coming.

Cheers
Sandman.

[Sandman Donating Member Find all posts View Profile Close Sandman]

Re: Hydrogen generator trial results

Here are a few more pics.
I won't be on for a few days, going to Perth. Be back Sunday and will drop in to read up on the posts.

Cheers
Sandman