From WVO

[justavailable Biofuels Forum Newbie Find all posts View Profile Close justavailable]

I was very successful with virgin oil. When it came to WVO, it was totally a different story. OK so I got it half right. Can anyone out there tell me if the oil contained traces of tumeric or paprika, making the WVO very yellow/orange at the start, after conversion, will the BD look yellow/orange?

[kamel Member Find all posts View Profile Close kamel]

Re: From WVO

I was very successful with virgin oil. When it came to WVO, it was totally a different story. OK so I got it half right. Can anyone out there tell me if the oil contained traces of tumeric or paprika, making the WVO very yellow/orange at the start, after conversion, will the BD look yellow/orange?

WVO BD will always have a significantly darker colour than clean oil BD.

The stuff I make is dark browny red.

[justavailable Biofuels Forum Newbie Find all posts View Profile Close justavailable]

Re: From WVO

Thanks Kamel. It gives me back some confidence to know that I did not screw up too badly afterall.

Someone on another thread pointed out that all the answers are on the net and on different sites, which I agree but I also found out that when you actually get down to doing it there are so many variables that come into play. I also read on Journey to Forever that you can check your quality by processing your BD again as if it was virgin oil and if something drops out at the bottom, you know you have not done a proper conversion. What the writer did not mention was what will happen IF your conversion was indeed complete and you put it thru the same conversion again. What will be the end result be? From my experience, the result was plenty of glob and little BD.

How do you know your conversion is complete Kamel?

[Chris Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Chris]

Re: From WVO

Hi there
Tilly from paradise has posted a simple test right here, do a search and I am sure you will find it
If my memory serves me well you need 27 ml of methanol and 3 ml of your finished biodiesel in a beaker or a very clean very small jar
You shake the jar making sure it is mixed well, if the methanol goes cloudy it indicates an incomplete reaction
Leave it for an hour or two and if any glycerin falls out of it the same applies Incomplete reaction If no glycerin falls out you are doing fine
Have a look for the post any way as I may be a bit rusty on the info

[justavailable Biofuels Forum Newbie Find all posts View Profile Close justavailable]

Re: From WVO

Chris,

Cheers and many thanks for the feedback. Your encouragent is inspiring and there is NO WAY I WILL GIVE UP because the more I try the more determined I am to make my process work better.

Regards

[Chris Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Chris]

Re: From WVO

Mate
I have found the post but my skills on this thing are a bit lacking
I cannot post it to you
But it was from Tony from the west not Tilly and it was posted on the 9 July this year
If you search Tony's post's you will find it there
here is a link that he refers to any way (I know how to do that)
http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve/foru...351#6791034351

[justavailable Biofuels Forum Newbie Find all posts View Profile Close justavailable]

Re: From WVO

Chris,

Have gone to the site you recommended. Mate, I will definitely test my BD tomorrow and see how far I am out. Really.....thanks so much for your help.

Regards

[Chris Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Chris]

Re: From WVO

Good for you man, Keep at it Now do not be alarmed if your conversion proves to be incomplete
The test only tells you just that, it does not tell you the percentage of conversion, although you can get a clue by the amount that falls out in your test, if any
It does not mean that you cannot use the biodiesel
What you need to keep in mind is there are a lot of people running SVO which is what you will have in the biodiesel, unconverted oil
So given that you have washed the biodiesel with no residues remaining there, you can use it with no ill effects to your engine
Now I know I am going to get a lot of flack on this but here I go;
Assuming that you get an incomplete reaction at any time, and you do want to get 100% conversion there is no reason why you cannot repeat the reaction
There are a lot of theories on this of how one should do it
I would do the reaction again without any "lye"
Just methanol You will be surprised that a second or even a third reaction with just Methanol will get you an almost 100% conversion, given the titration was right, as well as no water in the oil to start off with
If you have a methanol recovery system it is not a problem in so far as cost is concerned
If you dont than you have to look at the economics to determine if it is a worthwhile step
At the end of the day that is how most of the commercial plants work around the world
They start with a much smaller qty of methanol than we do on a percentage basis, while monitoring conversion, they keep on adding further amounts of methanol in a number of steps until they convert all of the oil into esters

[tillyfromparadise Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close tillyfromparadise]

Re: From WVO

Hello Chris

A reaction using only methanol?
I have never heard of that before.
Can you give me a URL to the tests that showed this to be a valid procedure
Or can you describe the tests you performed and results that indicated this works.

Tilly

[Chris Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Chris]

Re: From WVO

Hello Chris

A reaction using only methanol?
I have never heard of that before.
Can you give me a URL to the tests that showed this to be a valid procedure
Or can you describe the tests you performed and results that indicated this works.

Tilly

Tilly
Here we go, I did say, I will get a lot of flack on this How did I know that? Surprised it did not come fromTony first, early days yet
Tilly, I will send you a link in your PM as soon as I can put my hands on it
later on on the day
Please, also,take a note of my comments "correct titration as well as no water"

[Guest Close David]

Re: From WVO

I know theoretically one is supposed to aim for as complete conversion as possible, but practically, what is a workable/ problem free/ safe conversion rate?
Does the BD NEED to be 95%+ reacted or will a lower conversion rate suffice as long as the ambient temperature is sufficient to keep everything Liquid and nothing drops out?

[Chris Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Chris]

Re: From WVO

David
If you where to consider that people run straight VO with preheating of the engine as well as the fuel the answer is obvious
In fact if you consider that some of the oil does turn into glycerine one would have thought SVO would be a more economical scenario
Nonetheless in making biodiesel you want to have as a complete reaction as possible as well as the highest conversion rate of the triglycerides into methyl esters
To the best of my knowledge 98.5% conversion with a pressurised reactor at 1 Atmosphere is achievable all things being equal
We get as close as 92% in a commercial environment with WVO slowly, quite the reverse with new oil over 95% quite fast
For home production given some simple steps with some well thought out variations to the reactor one can get complete conversion with a fairly high yield
Cheers
Chris

[tillyfromparadise Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close tillyfromparadise]

Re: From WVO

Hello David

100% conversion is not possible.
Neutral has made biodiesel that was 99.89% conversion using the single stage.

Is 96 octane petrol better than 89 octane petrol?
It depends on the engine. If your car runs fine on 89 octane then 96 octane offers nothing except higher cost.
The same with diesel engines.
I personally doubt that any car requires 99% conversion fuel.
Most cars probably do not require 95% conversion.
If the tests have ever been done, no one has posted the results.
The Australian spec was written to suit the petrol manufacturers, it had nothing to do with what the engines required.

My Gemini would run fine in the summer with low conversion biodiesel mixed 50/50 with unreacted, filtered WVO.

Some of the modern engines might not like this.

Hello Chris
99.89% conversion is possible in a single stage reaction in your own kitchen with no pressurization required.
The reaction takes about an hour at 50deg C regardless whether the oil is new or used.
How do you define the difference between completion rate and Conversion?
YOu seem to have some production ideas that do not fit what I have learned

Tilly

[Chris Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Chris]

Re: From WVO

Tilly
I hold you in the highest regard in so far as a home brewer is concerned the same goes for Tony from the west as well as some others here
I am involved in a commercial setup in the production of biodiesel
Besides my interest in the commercial aspects of biodiesel I have an interest in this forum for the promotion of biofuels for a variety of reasons
This is the first time that I am disclosing this side of my activities in a public forum
We produce biodiesel in a plant that is able to produce at 3 Tonne per hour and it does
We use WVO as well as new oil
I have a different perspective of biodiesel production from the average home brewer without taking anything away from that fact
We employ proffesionals to run the plant, highly skilled personnel with enough credentials so as to make me as well as a lot of others look like an ignoramus
When I post something in regards to biodiesel production it is a modified snippet of info that we have already put into practice some time or another in our own production
I am not for one minute suggesting that we are 100% right as I do not believe there is such thing
I am trying my very best to disseminate information that is well tested so as to help people along in their endeavours
Any time you wish to spend half a day or so I will be more than happy to show you our plant whirring away producing biodiesel at 3 tonne per hour mate
If you want to stretch it out for a day or so you can have a chat with the guys that run the plant that have turned out more biodiesel than we collectively have done right here all 1200 of us
There are millions of litres of biodiesel produced daily in the world with all kinds of plants which face all sorts of issues daily
Our plant is indigenous, designed and built right here in Australia with no outside input from any one elses technology It is home bred
Yes you are right I do have some production Ideas that you have not read because we are commercial producers of biodiesel
With all the problems associated with commercial production as well as all the variables that are faced for a home producer as well as a commercial producer
Keep in mind this biodiesel has come out of the blue when you consider other industries having being around since Adam was a boy
It is all new as well as fluid with a lot of known as well as not known facts
At any rate this is where I am at If my input here offends or upsets people I am more than willing to stand my ground on facts based on over 30 Tonne of biodiesel produced and sold by our facility lets say weekly
That is sold out there in the market place without the dramas that Freedom or others are generating for the users of the finished product

[tillyfromparadise Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close tillyfromparadise]

Re: From WVO

Hello Chris

I am disappointed that you seem to be offended that I question some of the information you posted.
I am not questioning your credentials or the knowledge of the professionals you employ.
Making biodiesel is not magic, the procedure is really rather well understood and whether you make 3 tonne or 3 litres the chemistry does not change.
I do question a good deal of the information you have posted as it goes against what i understand the situation to be.

* I have never heard of doing a re-process using just methanol with no caustic.
* You imply that it takes a "Pressurized Reactor" to obtain 98.5% conversion.- 99.89% conversion is possible in a non pressurized single stage procedure in your kitchen.
* you said: "using WVO We get as close as 92% in a commercial environment with WVO slowly." People routinely make biodiesel from WVO using the single stage method that passes ASTM which requires a conversion of 98%
* You say: "with new oil over 95% quite fast"- 95% is probably quite fast with WVO, it is the last little bit that takes time; i hour at 50deg C in a well designed home reactor.
* You talk about a "complete reaction" and a "high conversion". What do you mean by "Complete Reaction"?
* You said: For home production given some simple steps with some well thought out variations to the reactor one can get complete conversion with a fairly high yield"- This is not magic, people have routinely been making very high conversion biodiesel (98%+) for years in a single stage using WVO with a hot water heater as the reactor.

Tilly