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Jeffrey S. Brooks
19th April 2011, 04:40 AM
Video: Making vegetable oil blend diesel fuel (VOBDF) by blending gasoline with waste vegetable oil (WVO)
YouTube - Blending Gasoline with vegetable oil to make Diesel Fuel (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-FB8uGFeeNQ)

silver_fox_aus1
19th April 2011, 09:35 AM
Hi Brooks,

1. Do you just blend 20% petrol with your WVO and that is all.
2. Have you ever blended ethanol with WVO.

I am just looking for a good blend currently blending 30% diesel with my WVO does have a harder starting aspect and have read if I am not mistaken that you just blend the petrol with the WVO and it does a good job.

Thanks Gene

Jeffrey S. Brooks
20th April 2011, 12:40 AM
Hello Gene, yes, I have found a blend of 20% petrol to 80% WVO works best for my engine. I find no loss of power, or fuel economy, and the fuel remains liquid and the engine starts just fine down to 0F (-18c), and runs fine up to 120F (49c).

In several research papers where vegetable oil was used to extend diesel fuel blend they found that any blend with diesel fuel that included more than 50% WVO caused engine failure. So, if you are going to stick with diesel fuel as your blending agent, then I would recommend no more than 50% WVO in your blend. You will also find that such a blend will be susceptible to gelling at temperatures below 32F (0c). However, if you heat your fuel line, or add petrol to your blend, then those problems are going to be mitigated.

tbird650
20th April 2011, 10:52 AM
Gene
I get power loss when the engine gets up to operating temps with ULP as the blend. Just why I do and Jeffrey doesn't isnt exactly clear though our vehicles and setups amongst other things differ considerably. Perhaps even the ULP is different as I understand some has an alcohol content in the States.
I've now gone to using the 30% diesel blend that you are with better results for power when hot. Starting is more difficult from cold though better when hot.
One theory is that the fuel ULP content vaporizes as it reaches the hot injector, causing bubbles and consequently it doesnt inject and spray nicely. Power loss can occur when there is no bubbles returning in the return line as well. Bubbles do appear when the ratio of ULP is high and/or the ambient temps are high.
Another key difference is my fuel tank is inboard and can't get the benefit of air cooling. Consequently the ULP blended fuel can be quite hot and appears to aggravate the situation especially on long trips. My logging of temperatures has shown that even my van standing in direct sunlight during summer can elevate the fuel tank temps.
I've put up with power loss over quite some time and in varying degrees but it certainly gets frustrating when you start holding up traffic!
If you decide to try ULP blends, I'd be most interested to hear the result and experience.
Both blend types has advantages but neither is perfect. For me ULP has good cold start but power loss when hot while diesel blends give good power though cold starts suffer.

Tony From West Oz
20th April 2011, 10:49 PM
Tbird,
What proportions of ULP: WVO did you try?
Were any blend ratios better than others in relation to your power loss / cold starting?

A member of WARFA was using 10% petrol in WVO for several years until I bought the car for my Mrs, now it uses a 5% ULP, 20% biodiesel blend with WVO.

Neither he or I have had issues with power loss.

Regards,
Tony

silver_fox_aus1
21st April 2011, 12:55 AM
Hi Tony, TBird,

I have in the past used 10% and today used 20% on a 200 k trip and didn't notice any appreciable difference. Not that the old girl (sd 2.5 Nissan Navara motor).

I get a couple of tons of sweet potato each week and was wondering if anyone has used ethanol for blending. I noticed that it has 30% less economy according to one report I read and would assume that there probably be a power drop as well but as I tend to only travel at 80k doesn't worry me much.

Gene

cuppatea
21st April 2011, 10:03 AM
I thought JSB covered Ethanol in some of his first few threads? Not recommended from memory or at least a possible source of his issues.

Captaincademan
21st April 2011, 01:50 PM
[One theory is that the fuel ULP content vaporizes as it reaches the hot injector, causing bubbles and consequently it doesnt inject and spray nicely.]

Hi Tbird,

I have never run stright or blended WVO, but I do enjoy the read when it comes to these threads. On the subject of the vapourising ULP, I reckon you would be hard pressed to get the ULP to vapourise on the Pressure side of the pump. The high pressure environment should well and trully keep the gases dissolved in the fuel.

I think there is something else at play here - I wouldn't rule out an air leak. tolerances have been known to change with temperature.

Nuddy
21st April 2011, 03:53 PM
[One theory is that the fuel ULP content vaporizes as it reaches the hot injector, causing bubbles and consequently it doesnt inject and spray nicely.]
More likely perhaps is the ULP may vapourise before reaching the IP where it is under vacuum. Then the integral lift pump may have trouble drawing the vapour.
Just another thought.

tbird650
21st April 2011, 05:00 PM
Good point about the pressure side of the IP, Captaincademan. Food for thought. If I had air leak, I've always thought I'd see it in the return line, however I have had accasion to see very, very fine bubble streams before which could easily go un-noticed.

I have to wonder what the IP looks like on the inside now that it's done 5 years with a huge amount of fuel run through it. Will it look like the IP I saw recently that was reminiscent of a jelly mold of fats/glycerine on the inside? Is the shut-off valve strainer partly caked?? Sadly it's very very difficult to get to.

What I know is that 30%dino blend performs significantly better in my Hiace than the usual 10 -15% ULP does. I wondered whether a fuel cooler would make a difference, like some of the big trucks have.

Tony
I've experimented recently with up to 1/3 ULP in an effort to prove something/anything, one way or the other.
The highest % blend started and ran ok till hot. Then it lost power and I noticed lots of bubbles returning to the tank. I had trouble keeping up with traffic and was as though the van was running out of fuel.
Other blends seem to loose power relative to the amount of ULP in the mix, (mostly) without any sign of bubbles. Currently my 30%dino blend has good power when hot and is quite a bit more viscous than the ULP blends were.

I've got the ULP blend fuel temps logged too. This shows that injector line temps go close to engine temp after some time driving or with heat soak after stopping. Fuel tank temps were up to mid 30's. Good power is with injector line temps under 40'. Best power is under 30' (remember my tank has no air cooling being inside the vehicle, also the fuel lines were the same till recently)

Another thought: Is ULP the same identical mix in each country or are we trying to compare apples with oranges?

Thanks for good constructive comments, team.

Tony From West Oz
21st April 2011, 11:32 PM
While the injectors do receive very high pressures when injecting, in the period between fuel injection, there is little or no pressure in the injectors and injector lines. In this case, fuel could be forced from the injector and lines into the return line by the boiling ULP in the blend.

I am only postulating here, but I believe that this is a possible cause of the power loss at higher temperatures. It could also be due to vaporisation of the ULP on the suction side of the IP. Addition of a low pressure (4 - 7 psi), fuel pump would eliminate the suction side vaporisation as a potential cause. The addition of a fuel pressure/vacuum gauge would verify if the pressure remained at the IP inlet during testing of the impact of adding a fuel pump, on the high temperature fuel starvation issue.

Regards,
Tony

Jeffrey S. Brooks
22nd April 2011, 01:23 AM
Hi Tony, TBird...wondering if anyone has used ethanol for blending. I noticed that it has 30% less economy according to one report I read and would assume that there probably be a power drop as well but as I tend to only travel at 80k doesn't worry me much.

GeneSorry, Gene, I forgot to respond to your earlier inquiry regarding blending with alcohols, such as ethanol. I have not been successful at creating a solution with vegetable oil and alcohols, so I cannot at this time recommend it. However, there is some research in cosolvent blending that has successfully done this, but it requires one or more intermediate stages to force this blend.

Jeffrey S. Brooks
22nd April 2011, 01:33 AM
On the subject of the vapourising ULP, I reckon you would be hard pressed to get the ULP to vapourise on the Pressure side of the pump. The high pressure environment should well and trully keep the gases dissolved in the fuel.I am with Captaincademan here, it is not likely that ULP will vaporize on the positive pressure side of the the pump. However, we have certainly heard of tbird650's problems with loss of power. From what he tells us, it appears that his fuel tank is getting heated with returned fuel, might be causing the ULP to vaporize on the negative side of the lift pump and causing vapor-lock there. He might find adding smaller quantities of ULP might work. I would like to hear of his results. Maybe 5-10% will work.

tbird650
22nd April 2011, 05:12 PM
Tony
Yeah, Ive pondered over this as well. Obviously it's the hottest point being around engine temp. It's a pity we can't see inside the injector and lines. If indeed it's vaporizing at the nozzle, I'd have thought that some bubbles would be coming back from the bleed off lines. On my Hiace they are banjo'd and feed back via the return line.

I was thinking of a fuel cooler, mounted out front on the grill. However with the dino blend I'm in 2 minds. Part of me says I should not so I can take advantage of a bit of heat thinning. The fuel is noticeably more viscous and heat thinning might make for an easier time on the IP.

It would be interesting to hear of any ones' fuel line, tank or injector line temps so as to compare.

craigcurtin
22nd April 2011, 08:37 PM
Tbird,

I have used a combined mixture in my Surf for a while now - 5% ULP, 20% Dino, and the rest WVO

I vary the ULP and DINO content by time of year to give me reasonable starting etc.

What i am basically looking for is a reasonably thin mixture - i think if you were to reduce the amount of ULP down to around 5% and then blend with DINO until you found a good starting mix you would be OK - as your climate got colder you could add more ULP

The other thing to look at it making BIO - although a pain to start with you could then add a heap more to the mixture to achieve the same result i.e. BIO costs around 40c/litre to make so you could either cut your blending costs or up the BIO amount to achieve more consistent operation.

I have only just started making bio but have found it is not as scary or time consuming as first imagined

Craig

Jeffrey S. Brooks
23rd April 2011, 12:40 AM
I am still trying to work my way around tbird650's problem with blending ULP into his WVO. Here in southern Arizona, USA we commonly run gasoline at 120F (49c) ambient temperatures without vapor-lock. So, you should be able to do the same thing in a WVO blend anywhere. However, if the fuel in your fuel tank is exceeding that temperature, then vapor-lock is likely. Adding a heat exchanger to cool the fuel is one way to solve that problem, but maybe cooling the return line is a better solution.

Some people prefer blending diesel fuel, vegetable oil and gasoline (petrol) to to reduce the amount of gasoline (petrol) in the blend. Here are some functional relationships between the three components:

5% gasoline (petrol), to 40% diesel fuel, to 55% vegetable oil.
10% gasoline (petrol), to 30% diesel fuel, to 60% vegetable oil.
15% gasoline (petrol), to 20% diesel fuel, to 65% vegetable oil.
20% gasoline (petrol), to 10% diesel fuel, to 70% vegetable oil.
25% gasoline (petrol), to 0% diesel fuel, to 75% vegetable oil.

Tony From West Oz
23rd April 2011, 01:21 AM
There is a saying "Oils aint Oils" Which in this case translates to say that Petrol in a hot climate is likely to have less volatile components which evaporate at the ambient temperature, than petrol sold in very cold climates.

Just as Diesel has Summenr and Winter mixthres, I am sure that the fuel companies adjust the ratios of the components of petrol to suit the climate in which the fuel is to be used.


If this is correct, your Arizona Summer petrol would be totally different to our Winter petrol. Thus, the blend ratios will differ sepending on the climate of the place where the fuel is supplied.

JSB, are you saying that the viscosity of the blends you provided are similar to each other?

Regards,
Tony

tbird650
23rd April 2011, 10:24 PM
Tony
Climate savvy petrol is so obvious now that you mention it, I'm amazed I never thought of it before. Good 1.

I went on 200km return run today. The van ran sweetly. The injector line temp was below 50'c for the 1st 50km. Then I stopped for 10mins and the temp went up to nearly 70'c while sitting. The figure slowly came down while driving over the next 15mins to be in the mid to high 50's till I stopped again for about 4 hours. It seems I need a fuel that is stable up to 70 given the current set up and ambient temps.

Craig
I've used blends a bit like that too. For quite some time I used 5%-10%-85%.

I worked out today that I saved somewhat in excess of $2000 per year at the current fuel price. Since I've had this particular van for 5 years, I've saved much more than it's worth.

Jeffrey S. Brooks
24th April 2011, 12:41 AM
Tony
Climate savvy petrol is so obvious now that you mention it, I'm amazed I never thought of it before. Good 1.
I worked at Chevron research some years ago, and there was no effort to blend seasonal gasoline-based fuels; however, Tony is correct that there are two diesel fuels, one for winter and one for summer. The winter fuel is just a cut higher up the distillation column, which translates to a cooler temperature, meaning that there is more kerosene in the D1 cut.

I went on 200km return run today. The van ran sweetly. The injector line temp was below 50'c for the 1st 50km. Then I stopped for 10mins and the temp went up to nearly 70'c while sitting. The figure slowly came down while driving over the next 15mins to be in the mid to high 50's till I stopped again for about 4 hours. It seems I need a fuel that is stable up to 70 given the current set up and ambient temps.

Craig
I've used blends a bit like that too. For quite some time I used 5%-10%-85%. I agree, Craig, if your fuel temp is rising above 50c, then your engine is likely to experience vapor-lock, therefore I would avoid blending with light fractions, such as: gasoline (petrol) and acetone. I would instead focus on blending with kerosene and diesel fuel (D1 and D2).

Or, as you suggested in an earlier message figure out where the heat is coming from, and install a heat exchanger to lose that heat. I suspect the heat is coming from your return line, so you could install a heat exchanger on that line.

Tony:
Yes, the blends I recommended above are attempting to produce similar viscosities; however, I am also looking at gel-point.

tbird650
24th April 2011, 11:32 PM
One thing that is becoming increasingly obvious is the effectiveness of the original fuel system layout as designed by Toyota.
It has a steel tank at the rear which is exposed to passing breeze as well as being shaded. Also the fuel lines.
Fuel is cooled by the "chill factor" of that breeze against the metal tank and pipework. Fuel is cooled in the tank. Fuel is cooled on the way to the IP. And fuel is cooled on the way back to the tank.

Am hoping to get time to set up a simple experiment to test out the temperature effects on blended fuels. Will see how it goes...

Alga
26th April 2011, 11:13 AM
Hello Gene, yes, I have found a blend of 20% petrol to 80% WVO works best for my engine. I find no loss of power, or fuel economy, and the fuel remains liquid and the engine starts just fine down to 0F (-18c), and runs fine up to 120F (49c).

In several research papers where vegetable oil was used to extend diesel fuel blend they found that any blend with diesel fuel that included more than 50% WVO caused engine failure. So, if you are going to stick with diesel fuel as your blending agent, then I would recommend no more than 50% WVO in your blend. You will also find that such a blend will be susceptible to gelling at temperatures below 32F (0c). However, if you heat your fuel line, or add petrol to your blend, then those problems are going to be mitigated.

Can you provide these papers which state using more than 50% VO causes engine failure, as I find it a ridiculous statement not backed up be anything I've experienced seen or read. You've got more chance of engine problems using petrol as a blend than you would with using dino, kero, jet fuel or BD.

I use 10% BD or dino in 90% VO for many years and my cruiser has done well over 500000 klms and runs well for it's age.

As for gelling, I live in Tas where we get regular below zero temps constantly in winter and never had any gelling problems, I've got samples of different blends which are at least 6 years old, none have ever gelled, petrol blends tend to drop out white stuff over time and when heated, they tend to coat your system with this white powdery stuff. I've seen a number engines which have crashed after 30-5000 klms on petrol blends.

The Aus antarctic division used petrol blends of up to 30% to try and stop diesel gelling and found they had to rebuilt or replace their engines every two seasons, so dropped the idea. Now they use an anti gel in straight diesel and have even tried using BD as a lubricant, but changed to 2 stroke or AFT depending on the usage because they use a lot of ATF.

Jeffrey S. Brooks
27th April 2011, 12:58 AM
Can you provide these papers which state using more than 50% VO causes engine failure, as I find it a ridiculous statement not backed up be anything I've experienced seen or read. You've got more chance of engine problems using petrol as a blend than you would with using dino, kero, jet fuel or BD.In “Using Unmodified Vegetable Oils as a Diesel Fuel Extender – A Literature Review” (Jones, Sam and Charles L. Peterson) found the research in the 80s found every blend of vegetable oils with #2 Diesel resulted in “severe piston ring gumming and catastrophic engine failure.” From Korus, Jo and Peterson (1984) we find, "The most obvious problem in a short term engine test with vegetable oil blends is the formation of carbon deposits on the injector nozzles. The amount of the deposits (coking) increases in amount with the percentage of oil in the fuel blend...All vegetable oil fuel blends (tested) gave a statistically significant increase in carbon deposits relative to diesel."

Jones, Sam and Charles L. Peterson Using Unmodified Vegetable Oils as a Diesel Fuel Extender – A Literature Review
Graduate Research Assistant and Professor and Interim Head
Department of Biological and Agricultural Engineering
University of Idaho, Moscow, Idaho 83843
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/idahovegoilslitreview.pdf

“A rapid engine test to measure injector fouling in diesel engines using vegetable oil fuels,” Roger A. Korus and Jaiduk Jo, Department of Chemical Engineering, University of Idaho, Moscow, ID 83842, and Charles L. Peterson, Department of Agricultural Engineering, University of Idaho, Moscow, ID 83842, 14 December 1984
SpringerLink - Journal of the American Oil Chemists' Society, Volume 62, Number 11 (http://www.springerlink.com/content/h43r676n714xu668/)

Whereas, blends with gasoline and other light solvents are suggested as successful fuel blends in the following research:

Gasoline-diesel cocktail: a potent recipe for cleaner, more efficient engines, Aug. 3, 2009, by Brian Mattmiller
the University of Wisconsin-Madison News
Gasoline-diesel cocktail: a potent recipe for cleaner, more efficient engines (Aug. 3, 2009) (http://www.news.wisc.edu/16945)

Diesel used as gasoline 'spark plug' improves economy and emissions By Michael Mulcahy 23:18 August 11, 2009
Diesel used as gasoline 'spark plug' improves economy and emissions (http://www.gizmag.com/diesel-spark-plug-gasoline/12484/)

Low-temperature flow properties of vegetable oil/cosolvent blend diesel fuels, Journal of the American Oil Chemists' Society, volume 79, issue 7, 709-715, DOI: 10.1007/s11746-002-0547-x

Alga
27th April 2011, 09:16 AM
In “Using Unmodified Vegetable Oils as a Diesel Fuel Extender – A Literature Review” (Jones, Sam and Charles L. Peterson) found the research in the 80s found every blend of vegetable oils with #2 Diesel resulted in “severe piston ring gumming and catastrophic engine failure.” From Korus, Jo and Peterson (1984) we find, "The most obvious problem in a short term engine test with vegetable oil blends is the formation of carbon deposits on the injector nozzles. The amount of the deposits (coking) increases in amount with the percentage of oil in the fuel blend...All vegetable oil fuel blends (tested) gave a statistically significant increase in carbon deposits relative to diesel."

Jones, Sam and Charles L. Peterson Using Unmodified Vegetable Oils as a Diesel Fuel Extender – A Literature Review
Graduate Research Assistant and Professor and Interim Head
Department of Biological and Agricultural Engineering
University of Idaho, Moscow, Idaho 83843
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/idahovegoilslitreview.pdf

“A rapid engine test to measure injector fouling in diesel engines using vegetable oil fuels,” Roger A. Korus and Jaiduk Jo, Department of Chemical Engineering, University of Idaho, Moscow, ID 83842, and Charles L. Peterson, Department of Agricultural Engineering, University of Idaho, Moscow, ID 83842, 14 December 1984
SpringerLink - Journal of the American Oil Chemists' Society, Volume 62, Number 11 (http://www.springerlink.com/content/h43r676n714xu668/)

Whereas, blends with gasoline and other light solvents are suggested as successful fuel blends in the following research:

Gasoline-diesel cocktail: a potent recipe for cleaner, more efficient engines, Aug. 3, 2009, by Brian Mattmiller
the University of Wisconsin-Madison News
Gasoline-diesel cocktail: a potent recipe for cleaner, more efficient engines (Aug. 3, 2009) (http://www.news.wisc.edu/16945)

Diesel used as gasoline 'spark plug' improves economy and emissions By Michael Mulcahy 23:18 August 11, 2009
Diesel used as gasoline 'spark plug' improves economy and emissions (http://www.gizmag.com/diesel-spark-plug-gasoline/12484/)

Low-temperature flow properties of vegetable oil/cosolvent blend diesel fuels, Journal of the American Oil Chemists' Society, volume 79, issue 7, 709-715, DOI: 10.1007/s11746-002-0547-x

Two of those links relate to combustion chamber blending, not fuel tank blending. The others relate to what we've known for the last 40 years, if you don't use the proper techniques you get fouling of the engine and that goes for dino and petrol use. I've seen many engines stuff up because of bad maintenance, bad setups and systems to complicated to do anything but stuff up. I've been using SVO since the late 1970's, so will stick to the facts and not supposed theory relating to circumstances anyone with have a brain would understand not to let happen.

As my current cruiser engine has done over 560000 klms without being touched mechanically, more than 400000 on SVO as well as tractors, boats and generators, coping with freezing temps including snow, yet the only problems we've ever had have been blocked pre-filters, I'd say it's working for me. Naturally when we started doing this, no one had a clue so we had a lot of problems until we worked out the simplest most reliable system and have stuck to it since.

Flush clean your fuel system and engine every 5000klms and you won't have problems, nor need to waste money on petrol.

tbird650
27th April 2011, 09:50 PM
Alga, whats your flush cleaner of choice? Thanks

Tony From West Oz
27th April 2011, 10:52 PM
JSB,
Most, if not all of the blends were tested using constant speed diesels running alternators so they could measure the output power easily.

The main issue with this, is that it does not bear any resemblance to use of these fuels in a diesel engined vehicle. The varying load conditions and full operating (RPM) range contribute to much cleaner operation of the engine, with negligible carbon build up in the combustion chamber.

There are also many University papers predicting the rapid decline of output power from a diesel engine where straight WVO is used. Again this does not bear any resemblance to actual usage in vehicles, (I believe for the above reasons) especially if a 2 tank conversion with heated WVO is used.

Thanks for posting those links

Tony

Jeffrey S. Brooks
28th April 2011, 01:19 AM
Alga, and Tony, my comments regarding a blend with diesel fuel with greater than 50% WVO was not at all an attempt to make a comment upon two-tank systems, which of course run 100 WVO. Whereas, your comments seem to suggest you both are running two-tank systems, which is not on topic on this blending thread. I guess this suggests further the value in having a blending forum here to avoid confusion.

Alga
28th April 2011, 06:23 AM
Alga, whats your flush cleaner of choice? Thanks

Fuel system flush, 1lt straight ATF every 5000 klms, run your starter tank to almost empty then put in the ATF and run the engine at varying RPM's with and without loads. When the ATF is almost gone, out dino/BD back in and run the engine until all the aft is out of the system.

To flush the engine put 250mm of ATF into 500mm of dino and stick that in a hot engine every 5000klms, idle it for 5-10 minutes and drain. You'll be amazed at what comes out the sump and how the engine sounds afterwards.

Alga
28th April 2011, 06:49 AM
Alga, and Tony, my comments regarding a blend with diesel fuel with greater than 50% WVO was not at all an attempt to make a comment upon two-tank systems, which of course run 100 WVO. Whereas, your comments seem to suggest you both are running two-tank systems, which is not on topic on this blending thread. I guess this suggests further the value in having a blending forum here to avoid confusion.

Sorry, I must have missed it, but this thread doesn't seem to say anything about a single tank system until your last post. Single tank systems are a different kettle of fish altogether, there's so many problems which can occur in my opinion, it's not worth the trouble. I used a single tank blend system on an old Datsun diesel and patrol for a short time many years ago to see which was the best set up, but gave it up after many non below zero towing of the patrol to the hill to start it. The best blend we found was 50/50 dino/VO, petrol created to much knocking even when we adjusted the timing and on very hot days suffered airlocks, needed to change filters more often and in the end cost nearly as much as running on dino in time lost and money. When the datsun engine finally stopped and we pulled it down, it was really gunked up even when flushed and the old oil always smelt like turps.

The idea of combustion chamber blending has been around for a few years and is a good idea, the draw back is getting the timing and mixtures right, or you have big bang. I believe most on this forum are using VO for economic and environmental reasons, if dino was still about 25clt, very few would be using VO, considering what's involved in collection and processing.

ocsum
28th April 2011, 08:40 PM
Alga,
just a dumb question (I'm not trying to hijack this thread either...sorry) but when you do the engine flush do you
#1 Drain the oil,
#2 put the blend of Dino and ATF in
#3 run engine for a minute.
#4 Drain remainder that comes out?

Cheers
Pete

Jeffrey S. Brooks
29th April 2011, 12:07 AM
Sorry, I must have missed it, but this thread doesn't seem to say anything about a single tank system until your last post. Well, single tank systems are generally blending, while two-tank systems generally do not blend. The confusion certainly demonstrates the importance of a separate thread for blenders, so that blenders can discuss their unique issues without dogmatic two-tankers, and biodiesel consumers interfering.

Alga
29th April 2011, 06:57 AM
Alga,
just a dumb question (I'm not trying to hijack this thread either...sorry) but when you do the engine flush do you
#1 Drain the oil,
#2 put the blend of Dino and ATF in
#3 run engine for a minute.
#4 Drain remainder that comes out?

Cheers
Pete

Don't drain the oil, you may have to remove a bit but overfilling the sump a little won't hurt the seals if the engine is just idling. Run the hot engine for a few minutes to allow the stuff to get into every area and thin the junk out, then drain it.

Alga
29th April 2011, 07:09 AM
Well, single tank systems are generally blending, while two-tank systems generally do not blend. The confusion certainly demonstrates the importance of a separate thread for blenders, so that blenders can discuss their unique issues without dogmatic two-tankers, and biodiesel consumers interfering.

I believe many two tankers blend to a certain degree, I do. In winter I add 10-15% BD or dino to thin the oil a bit. I think it may be misguided to state using a dino blend will ruin your engine, without clarification of under what circumstances this may happen.

However if you don't think clarification and discussion is worthwhile, that's your problem.

Lozzer
29th April 2011, 12:27 PM
Hi Pete,
I'm sure Alga will give you more detail on use of ATF. He kindly gave me advice on the topic some time back so just a few points for now...

All engine flushes require you to add the flushing agent to the existing engine oil (ideally already hot), run the engine for 10-20 mins at a fast idle, and then drain. Similar for the ATF.

Mechanics often comment on just how much extra oil drains from sumps when a flushing agent is used compared with when none is used so you can imagine the crap that would remain and build up in an engine over time otherwise.

I have a late model vehicle now so only use a proprietary flush but used the atf on the Navara for a couple of years.

On blending, Jeff dont be too dismissive of blending. Having run the navara on a two tank system for 80000km I now run three vehicles only on blends.

Key factors are engine and fuel system design of course but also the blending proportions, the varying of those proportions as a function of ambient temp, the installation of extra fuel filter/s and heat exchanger mods, quality of wvo and offboard filtering, and average trip length. trips of <20km make use of a two tank system impractical when you allow for proper warm up before switching and appropriate purging before shut down.

Many guys in the UK run blends as high as >90% vege in summer, as do I.
Laurie

ocsum
29th April 2011, 08:55 PM
Cheers for the advice Alga and Lozzer,much appreciated.:D

Jeffrey S. Brooks
30th April 2011, 12:37 AM
On blending, Jeff dont be too dismissive of blending. Having run the navara on a two tank system for 80000km I now run three vehicles only on blends.

Key factors are engine and fuel system design of course but also the blending proportions, the varying of those proportions as a function of ambient temp, the installation of extra fuel filter/s and heat exchanger mods, quality of wvo and offboard filtering, and average trip length. trips of <20km make use of a two tank system impractical when you allow for proper warm up before switching and appropriate purging before shut down.

Many guys in the UK run blends as high as >90% vege in summer, as do I.
LaurieLaurie, you seem to have gotten misdirected here. I am not at all "dismissive of blending." In fact I am all about blending; however, I do not recommend blends with diesel fuel at less than 50% diesel fuel, because research has shown greater percentages of VO in a diesel only blend can lead to "catastrophic engine failure." And, blending with diesel fuel or biodiesel does not substantially lower the gel-point of a WVO based blend in cold temperatures.

Thus, I advocate blending with lighter solvents, especially in colder weather. I tend to use petrol at 20% with WVO at 80%, which keeps my blend liquid below 0F (-18c) and I find my engine fires right up on that blend at that temperature without the use of a block heater. And, I have found on that blend my engine runs fine, like it is on diesel fuel, from 0F (-18c) to 120F (49c) without a heat exchanger in my fuel system.

Lozzer
30th April 2011, 06:08 PM
Hi Jeff,
Sorry that I misunderstood your take on blending.

Not sure about the general validity of stating a caution about inevitable damage from using dino/vege blends containing more than 50% wvo though. It all depends on the host of variables including those listed in my previous post.

Many people have had long term success with blending using a higher proportion of wvo. I'm more recently thinking that a relatively rapid rate of engine warm up (mainly as a function of engine and cooling system design but also engine management) from cold starts has probably been underappreciated in its importance.
Laurie

Tony From West Oz
30th April 2011, 11:26 PM
I also support blends of less than 50% diesel. In my statements above, I explained why the University tests are not supported by "real life" experiences.
Please re-read it.

Basically, a constant RPM diesel engine running an alternator connected to a steady state load cannot replicate "real life" vehicle diesel engine operating conditions.

I was not promoting the use of 2 tank systems and I even use blends in my start tank.

I have no confusion as to what is being discussed.

Regards,
Tony