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Tony From West Oz · 8 February 2017, 08:36 PM

Re: Engine fuelling issues

It is unlikely that Liquid Moly would move the tarry byproduct from using unwashed biodiesel.

You could try several other solvents (mixed with fuel) to see if they help.

3DB · 8 February 2017, 09:42 PM

Re: Engine fuelling issues

I have always thought I take good care making my fuel. I always wash it 3 or 4 times until it passes the shake-up test and do the 27-3 on it before it gets to the wash stage. And yet I have been noticing that tarry stuff gradually building up on the bottom of my cubies, which are now approaching 4 years old.

I noticed that carby cleaner worked pretty well on the stuff inside the water/sed trap the first time and more recently I used brake cleaner and it instantly dissolved it. I have been wondering how I might get a can of Brakleen through my IP. Perhaps they sell it in non-aerosol form to use in atomiser spray bottles? Might be worth a look. Pump it through with the Facet pump.

I recall others using acetone.

Johnnojack · 8 February 2017, 10:30 PM

Re: Engine fuelling issues

Yep, same here but I clean my cubbies before using them again. Very hot water, glycerine and a good shaking. Rinse and dry.
Remember when you had no power b4 DB? This time instead of adjusting the smoke screw, measure exactly how far it sticks out with a venier caliper, record measurement then remove it. The gunk or lack of gunk on the last 15mm of the screw will give you an indication of the state of the inside of the IP. If it is bad you could remove the top cover of the pump and have another look. It can be put back on with care, while still on the engine, if it looks shocking you know you are up for removal and cleaning. Another cause could be the return banjo is blocked, so any air which is trapped can't be purged. Revving the engine increases the internal pump pressure to the max, possibly forcing any air out. Take it out and check it.

smithw · 9 February 2017, 08:59 AM

Re: Engine fuelling issues

If you have a rotary pump, it is proably the vanes on the lift pump sticking, Ive had this a couple of times on my estima, and sticky crap in the filter. I came to the conclusion that the bio was striping the coating off the estimas fuel tank and making a mess in the filters and pump, as my three other vehicles did not give me this problem.
you can have a read here and how i fixed it without removing the pump.
http://www.biofuelsforum.com/threads/10599-toyota-estima-wont-rev?highlight=estima

tillyfromparadise · 9 February 2017, 09:01 AM

Re: Engine fuelling issues

Diesel Purge- MSDS
http://www.worldpac.com/tagged/DieselPurgeLM2005.pdf

Notice you that over half of what is in the container is just diesel fuel- a very expensive way to buy diesel

DIESEL FUEL CAS# 68476-34-6 ≤65%
2-ETHYLHEXYL NITRATE CAS#27247-96-7 (Cetane improver) ≤25%
PETROLEUM DISTILLATES CAS#64742-54-7 ≤10%
1,2,4-TRIMETHYLBENZENE 95-63-6 ≤1%

I would spend my money on something else

3DB · 9 February 2017, 03:21 PM

Re: Engine fuelling issues

Tilly -point taken on the LiquiMoly. I figured that might be the case but also that $19 could be a small price to pay for a good result. Mercedes guru, Kent Bergsma, raves about the stuff. Maybe he might also hold the distribution rights for the state of Washington..?

JJ - good stuff also. Will check.

SmithW - excellent thread on the Estima. Must've missed that one. I just bought a can of acetone so will try cycling that thru with my little Facet pump and see what comes out the other end.

3DB · 10 February 2017, 08:47 PM

Re: Engine fuelling issues

So yesterday arvo I pumped 500mL of acetone thru the IP with the Facet and it came out basically clean. No sign of any contaminants. Stupidly, I didn't think to bypass the filter & water trap first, so the acetone got pretty diluted by the bio still in the system.

In the process, the Facet pump died. And it got me wondering whether it might have been on the way out for a while and possibly the source of my problems as it has been sitting inline for about 12 months now - not running unless needed for priming - but with fuel flowing through it continuously.

Towards the end it wouldn't move anything. I couldn't prove my theory because I couldn't tell whether the IP could still pull through it though as I got air in the system and had no way to prime it without the pump. You see, when my water trap got badly clogged with the tarry stuff about 6 months ago, I had to remove the non-return flaps (can't remember if there are one or 2) on the inlet /outlet as it just wouldn't work with them in place (gummed up also I suppose). I didn't consider it a drama as I had the pump. But of course the pump died so I have no way to prime.

Fortunately I was able to borrow another pump from Timorcoco while I wait for a new one. Got it primed this morning and seems to be running fine for now.

Here are some questions though:

My fuel filter copped a good slug of acetone in the process above. Do you think it might melt the glue inside and cause it to fail? Should I whack a new one on to be safe? It is only about 2,000 km old.
What are your thoughts on adding the residual acetone to the fuel tank next time I fill up, to give a dilute wash of the system over the next 400 km or so?
What are your feelings on the solvent qualities of unleaded petrol on the tarry substance? Would it be worth throwing a dash in to my next tank of fuel? If worthwhile, what is a safe ratio of ULP:bio?

I've got a 2,000 km round trip coming up next week so I want to make sure I'm as prepared as I can be. Fingers crossed it was just the little facet pump that was the problem. I will do as much test driving as I can between now and then.

Not great having 2 cars that don't run! The Merc is out with master cylinder issues and a frozen ignition....this is after losing a brake caliper bolt on the Harbour Bridge at Xmas! How much was that Camry Hybrid again, Tony?

Tony From West Oz · 10 February 2017, 11:05 PM

Re: Engine fuelling issues

You are having fun, aren't you?
You should be able to get a Camry Hybrid for around $11,000, but it will not run on Bio!

It does make sense that the facet valves could be gummed up. I believe that they can be dismantled to access the valves and pumping element, but it is a long time ago and may not have been that brand of pump that I dismantled. There is nothing to lose from trying to repair it.

If you can get a sample of the "tarry stuff" you should be able to check out a few solvents to see whether you can find something that works on it. If you do find something, please let us know.

IF I had all the answers, I would be charging for my advice (LOL) but:
1. Replace the filter, it is cheap insurance against cr@p getting into the IP.
2. Did the acetone do any good in the IP or Facet pump? - If not I doubt it would have any impact at a significantly reduced concentration
3. I wouldn't recommend any more than 10% ULP in summer, probably 5% would be enough. Whether it works on the "tarry stuff" or not, I will wait to hear from you.
Methanol may be another solvent to try on the "tarry stuff"

Tony

ocsum · 10 February 2017, 11:41 PM

Re: Engine fuelling issues

Hi 3DB,
back to basics, remove the facet pump out of the equation, go to Bunnings and get some clear hose. The IP is strong enough to suck bio from the tank so having a lift pump is not needed,even doing filter changes you should be able to hand prime. Check for any air entering the IP and also if any air is exiting the IP. Monitor your oil levels incase IP seal is leaking and facet pump is compensating.
I've used ATF to run through my IP and injectors. I use about 500ml in a bottle and put the suction in this,I put the return line in a seperate bottle so as to catch the bio. Intermittent problems suck but check all your hose connections/clamps from tank suction to return lines and all o rings in your filter housing.Pressure test your filter housing , this is easily done with a bike pump .
Mate hope you resolve your problem
Cheers

Johnnojack · 11 February 2017, 11:11 PM

Re: Engine fuelling issues

The primer pumps have 2 flap valves. Unfortunately one is inside the pumping chamber and can only be accessed by cutting the thing apart. This means you have great difficulty cleaning the bloody things, not to mention biodiesel destroys the diaphragms. I cut mine apart years ago and I use engine vacuum to prime my fuel system which takes about 2 seconds. I can also see just by lifting the bonnet and looking at the clear top on my ex primer pump if there is air in the system. What dissolves the brown gunk?? Good question, petrol, time and elbow grease. You are simply delaying taking it apart methinks. A formidable task the first time you do it but not impossible.

3DB · 12 February 2017, 10:02 AM

Re: Engine fuelling issues

The ute seems to be running well now after about 60 or so km yesterday.

I replaced the filter just in case, Tony. And I'll try running 5% ULP for a bit - at least for my trip next week.

Ocsum - unfortunately I need some sort of ad-on pump as my hand primer no longer works after removing the non-return flap due to it being gummed up. It is useless as a primer now, but hopefully will still catch sediment and water. I have heard of using ATF before on the Merc forum now that you mention it. I will also give that a go if I get the trouble again - thanks for the tip.

JJ - I'm intrigued about your water trap - got any photos? Also, how does your vacuum bleed system work? This would be very handy to most of us if caught short with other methods not available as I was the other day. Regarding pulling the IP and cleaning - how many times have you had to do this on your Jackaroo so far? Over how many years? Would you sat that the level of gum build-up is a factor more of time with SVO / bio in the system or volume that has gone through it (proportional to km travelled)? Or both? In my case, 4 years, but only 45-odd thousand km. Is it something you might have to do every 4 - 5 years or so?

Would it be fair to say that the newer rotary-style IP's might require more frequent maintenance when used with biofuel use than an inline IP out of, say, a Mercedes or older Nissan SD33 from a Patrol?

Johnnojack · 12 February 2017, 10:06 PM

Re: Engine fuelling issues

DB will try to post photo, need to type in link so hope I get it right. If you carefully cut away the crimped on steel top of the primer pump by going around it with a mini hacksaw you will be left with the aluminium casting with an open top and a nice wide flange. The flange is where you can seal on a clear lid. Also when you cut open the primer pump you will find the second flap valve and probably a lot of hidden gunk. I use 10mm thick acrylic for the new top as you can tap threads into it, screw it down with some force and it won't distort. I tap in a brake bleeder to vacuum the air out with. You will also need to drill and tap3/16th inch holes in the top of the filter to hold down the top. Cut some bolts to the right length and find some seals for the top of them. Hope this makes sense. The photo is an old one, things have changed under my bonnet since but still have one of the filters shown.

http://www.farm4.static.flickr.com/3...92a1c79e_b.jpg

Johnnojack · 12 February 2017, 10:31 PM

Re: Engine fuelling issues

Can't get photo link to work, maybe when I hook up iPad to PC
If someone else can post photos for me I can take some proper ones tomorrow and email to them

Johnnojack · 15 February 2017, 12:59 PM

Re: Engine fuelling issues

Here are some photos

Cut around carefully

Dip tube so first bubble doesn't stop engine

two ways to cap off deleted primer pump

The clear irrigation filter used to catch fuel before it goes into vacuum pump/ reservoir or engine.

12volt vacuum switch, used with press button switch under bonnet to control vacuum

overall view, from top left, water trap, diesel filter, vege filter wrapped with heater hose, yellow tap to isolate vacuum. Small clear hose to bleed HEx (under foil) clear filter/catchcan bleed tube from vege filter, bottom right push button switches to operate the 3 vacuum switches not in picture .

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