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SOV but is there ANY reason you would not blend 5% ULP

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  • SOV but is there ANY reason you would not blend 5% ULP

    I understand all the purists of SOV but is there any reason why you would not use a light blend, lets just say 5% ULP, and perhaps solve any problems with viscosity, heating,etc. Still think of it as SOV and treat it as such, but would this make it a more user friendly fuel.

  • #2
    Re: SOV but is there ANY reason you would not blend 5% ULP

    Originally posted by dagwill View Post
    I understand all the purists of SOV but is there any reason why you would not use a light blend, lets just say 5% ULP, and perhaps solve any problems with viscosity, heating,etc. Still think of it as SOV and treat it as such, but would this make it a more user friendly fuel.
    Given you're asking for 'any' reason..... It breaches tax laws to blend an excisable fuel and a non excisable fuel. ULP is excisable (subject to fuel tax), veggie oil is non excisable. I've never heard of anyone being done for such blending of Veggie oil and ULP, or anything, in Australia.

    If blending was done very poorly, a slug of a rich mix of ULP might end up in your injection pump.... maybe....

    Originally posted by dagwill View Post
    would this make it a more user friendly fuel
    I agree. Adding a bit of ULP also changes the oxidative characteristics of veggie oil, as in it makes it more stable and less likely to oxidise.

    Go for it Dagwill.

    Tim
    Toyota Landcruiser 1988 HJ61 Manual Wagon
    12H-T turbo Direct Injection.
    Twin Tank setup runs on 100% WVO after warm up. 30 plate FPHE with 80°C output, 12mm fuel lines
    Start up and shut down electric fuel pump feeds IP direct.
    Front 4WDSytstems Lokka, Rear ARB airlokka for quick escapes up sandhills. Performance GTurbo with 600mm FMIC gives 450nm @ 1700rpm at 20psi boost.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: SOV but is there ANY reason you would not blend 5% ULP

      Originally posted by peter1
      Yes. there are many benefits to the addition of 5% Ulp.

      2 weeks ago I set up some tests as a point of interest expressed on another forum.
      I was able to measure the power output of an engine extremely accurately under load and 5% ULP gave a definite and unmistakable increase in power and also resulted in better burning of SVO.

      If you are interested in my results and experience with blending send me a PM with your email addy.
      The only thing to watch for is to use non-ethanol ULP. I remember some of the guys on here did some testing a while ago and showed that there were lacquers and others nasties that seemed to drop out when using ethanol based ULP.

      Craig
      Holden Suburban K2500 1998 6.5L Turbo GM engine
      210,000KMs (90,000 on new crate motor)

      Currently 2 tanks in and working - 90 litre BIO tank and main tank of 160L WVO

      30 plate FPHE in Engine bay and Helton Dual coil in rear
      Walbro FRB-5 pusher pumps x 2

      50,000KM on Veg and 10,000Km on B100

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: SOV but is there ANY reason you would not blend 5% ULP

        when blending these things keep in mind that ulp has an octane rating and diesel/oil has a cetane rating and that they are inversely proportional to each other
        meaning adding ulp to diesel lowers the cetane rating making it harder to ignite undercompression
        also adding diesel to petrol lowers the octane rating making more likely to ping or knock

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: SOV but is there ANY reason you would not blend 5% ULP

          Blending is most definitely interesting me more lately.
          Despite the strange cetane and ron post the consensus I think don't have issue with ulp blending.
          I can share one interesting adventure a cousin had in recent years. He filled up his 2.8l hilux diesel with ulp and drove for hours without realising. Now obviously it wasn't 100% ulp but it it was way more than what Toyota recommends ha ha.
          This motor would have been idi and a mechanical IP. It just goes to show what some diesel engines can cope with.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: SOV but is there ANY reason you would not blend 5% ULP

            While I agree with the above posts, I wish to clarify that diesel engines will not run on a high percentage of petrol. My Nissan Urvan (25 years ago) was low on fuel and I poured a jerry can of what I thought was diesel (actually ULP) into the tank. After 20 km, the engine lost power, had a big cloud of white smoke coming out the exhaust and it rolled to a halt.

            After towing the Urvan home, adding diesel and pumping it thru with the primer pump, the Urvan started and ran on what would have been about 25% ULP, 75% diesel. It had no ill effects from the mis-fueling, once the correct fuel was used.
            I do not know what impact this would have had if it were a common rail engine, as the high pressure pump on those is particularly sensitive to fuel quality (especially lubrication characteristics)
            Regards,
            Tony
            Life is a journey, with problems to solve, lessons to learn, but most of all, experiences to enjoy.

            Current Vehicles in stable:
            '06 Musso Sports 4X4 Manual Crew Cab tray back.
            '04 Rexton 4X4 Automatic SUV
            '2014 Toyota Prius (on ULP) - Wife's car

            Previous Vehicles:
            '90 Mazda Capella. (2000 - 2003) My first Fatmobile. Converted to fun on veggie oil with a 2 tank setup.
            '80 Mercedes 300D. 2 tank conversion [Sold]
            '84 Mercedes 300D. 1 tank, no conversion. Replaced engine with rebuilt OM617A turbodiesel engine. Finally had good power. Engine donor for W123 coupe. (body parted out and carcass sold for scrap.)
            '85 Mercedes Benz W123 300CD Turbodiesel
            '99 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my darling Wife's car)[sold]
            '98 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my car)[sold]
            '06 Musso Sports Crew Cab well body. [Head gasket blew!]
            '04 Rexton SUV 2.9L Turbodiesel same as Musso - Our Family car.
            '06 Musso sports Crew Cab Trayback - My hack (no air cond, no heater).

            Searching the Biofuels Forum using Google
            Adding images and/or documents to your posts

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: SOV but is there ANY reason you would not blend 5% ULP

              peter1 a very clear and good explanation

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: SOV but is there ANY reason you would not blend 5% ULP

                Obviously common rail is another thing altogether. Ulp in that fuel system will be terminal.
                Agreed a high percentage of ulp well be noticeable, runs like a dog though I'm surprised it stopped altogether. Sounds to me like tbird's famous issue. I'm willing to bet (never test) that you could run an old diesel engine on high amounts of ulp with a cold ambient temperature. But anyway, the point is even higher amounts of ulp (be it by accident) won't generally spell disaster.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: SOV but is there ANY reason you would not blend 5% ULP

                  Originally posted by cuppatea View Post
                  Obviously common rail is another thing altogether. Ulp in that fuel system will be terminal.
                  SNIP.
                  I don't think that ULP in a common rail system will be terminal in a blend with veggie oil. I believe that it would depend on the blend ratio & the resultant lubricity of the blend.

                  Regards,
                  Tony
                  Life is a journey, with problems to solve, lessons to learn, but most of all, experiences to enjoy.

                  Current Vehicles in stable:
                  '06 Musso Sports 4X4 Manual Crew Cab tray back.
                  '04 Rexton 4X4 Automatic SUV
                  '2014 Toyota Prius (on ULP) - Wife's car

                  Previous Vehicles:
                  '90 Mazda Capella. (2000 - 2003) My first Fatmobile. Converted to fun on veggie oil with a 2 tank setup.
                  '80 Mercedes 300D. 2 tank conversion [Sold]
                  '84 Mercedes 300D. 1 tank, no conversion. Replaced engine with rebuilt OM617A turbodiesel engine. Finally had good power. Engine donor for W123 coupe. (body parted out and carcass sold for scrap.)
                  '85 Mercedes Benz W123 300CD Turbodiesel
                  '99 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my darling Wife's car)[sold]
                  '98 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my car)[sold]
                  '06 Musso Sports Crew Cab well body. [Head gasket blew!]
                  '04 Rexton SUV 2.9L Turbodiesel same as Musso - Our Family car.
                  '06 Musso sports Crew Cab Trayback - My hack (no air cond, no heater).

                  Searching the Biofuels Forum using Google
                  Adding images and/or documents to your posts

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: SOV but is there ANY reason you would not blend 5% ULP

                    actually peter no i understand the theory behind all this i have no intention of going very deep into this but if you want more information i suggest you start with something along the lines of cengel and boles thermodynamics textbook and once you have gone through that i can steer you into quite a few combustion textbooks



                    Originally posted by peter1
                    You read this Rubbish somewhere else right and just repeated it here without actually understanding why such a theory is flawed.

                    I don't know who dreams this stuff up but it sure gets repeated and misleads a LOT of people.
                    If you are interested it, you would learn a lot if you looked into the various aspects as this applies to Petrol and Diesel engines and a 3rd consideration as to how it applies to Veg oil use.

                    I have explained the reasons why this isn't true in more places than I can remember but still the old flawed theory just keeps going on.

                    Here is a quick heads up:

                    "The auto-ignition temperatures for the oils were determined to be as follows: canola oil: 424Ԩ, vegetable oil: 406 Ԩ and olive oil: 435Ԩ."


                    Gasoline, Petrol 280

                    "The compression ratio in a gasoline or petrol-powered engine will usually not be much higher than 10:1 due to potential engine knocking"

                    "There is no electrical sparking plug in an auto-ignition diesel engine; the heat of compression raises the temperature of the mixture to its auto-ignition point. The CR will customarily exceed 14:1 and ratios over 22:1 are common. The appropriate compression ratio depends on the design of the cylinder head. The figure is usually between 14:1 and 16:1 for direct injection engines, and between 18:1 and 23:1 for indirect injection engines."


                    SO, the facts are that Petrol has both a lower auto ignition temp and a lower max compression ratio than diesel and moreso, Veg oil.

                    Someone please explain to me with proven fact and physics how then spraying an amount of Petrol mixed with veg oil into an atmosphere ( inside a Cylinder) that has a highly elevated temperature due to compression ratios that far exceed the knock resistance ( auto Ign temp) of petrol, are going to make that mixture harder to ignite?

                    Furthermore, try starting a diesel on SVO on a cold day. Often, you can't. Add a small amount of petrol to the intake of the engine ( therefore eliminating any benefit potential of thinning the SVO and the thing will fire very readily. IF petrol was harder to ignite then this could obviously not happen.

                    Simple science and easily demonstrated practical application that makes the idea of adding petrol to Veg oil makes it harder to ignite a load of BS.
                    Seriously, who comes up with this misinformation and why do people keep repeating it??
                    It's complete and utter poppycock and total Bunk.


                    Best people do their own research if they want to know what's right and what is just more internet BS.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: SOV but is there ANY reason you would not blend 5% ULP

                      Originally posted by yoda2026 View Post
                      actually peter no i understand the theory behind all this i have no intention of going very deep into this but if you want more information i suggest you start with something along the lines of cengel and boles thermodynamics textbook and once you have gone through that i can steer you into quite a few combustion textbooks
                      It's the experience of many forum members that
                      Originally posted by yoda2026
                      adding ulp to diesel lowers the cetane rating making it harder to ignite under compression
                      is not correct for our application with WVO.

                      We find that adding ULP provides all round benefits to veggie oil. The thermodynamics theories you refer to may be correct regarding diesel fuel, but it's our practical experience that it does not apply the same way to WVO. It is a common mistake to translate properties related to diesel to biodiesel to WVO, regarding all sort of things; pumps, valves etc that are listed as working for diesel do not necessarily translate to WVO applications. Same thing could well be the case for ULP blends in WVO - it works for us.

                      We want the WVO to ignite quicker. ULP does this.

                      According to wikipedia:
                      "Cetane number or CN is a measure of a fuel's ignition delay, the time period between the start of injection and the first identifiable pressure increase during combustion of the fuel. In a particular diesel engine, higher cetane fuels will have shorter ignition delay periods than lower cetane fuels."

                      Tim
                      Tim-HJ61
                      Donating Member
                      Last edited by Tim-HJ61; 20 November 2013, 10:54 AM. Reason: clarification
                      Toyota Landcruiser 1988 HJ61 Manual Wagon
                      12H-T turbo Direct Injection.
                      Twin Tank setup runs on 100% WVO after warm up. 30 plate FPHE with 80°C output, 12mm fuel lines
                      Start up and shut down electric fuel pump feeds IP direct.
                      Front 4WDSytstems Lokka, Rear ARB airlokka for quick escapes up sandhills. Performance GTurbo with 600mm FMIC gives 450nm @ 1700rpm at 20psi boost.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: SOV but is there ANY reason you would not blend 5% ULP

                        Originally posted by Tony From West Oz View Post
                        I don't think that ULP in a common rail system will be terminal in a blend with veggie oil. I believe that it would depend on the blend ratio & the resultant lubricity of the blend.

                        Regards,
                        Tony
                        Yes your correct and I agree. What I meant I guess is a large percentage of ulp such as accidentally filling a common rail diesel with ulp would be terminal and expensive whereas the same mistake (with mechanical injection) would be noticeable and easily reversible. I personally wouldn't go down the wvo route if I had a common rail. I would do biodiesel - but that's just my opinion and another topic altogether

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: SOV but is there ANY reason you would not blend 5% ULP

                          I believe some here blend in stale petrol sourced from 2 stroke mower repair shops etc. Is stale better than fresh ULP or is it no different?
                          Johnnojack
                          4WD Isuzu Jackaroo 3.1 200000km on WVO,(2020) 2 tank home built system 6 solenoids FPHE, heated filter fuel line and tank pickup for thicker oil. Mk. 9 version now and no changes planned as trouble free.
                          Mercedes W201 190D 1986 model: 2 tank system, bigger fuel line from tank, no heat exchanger, electric pump for diesel 22000km so far sigpic

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: SOV but is there ANY reason you would not blend 5% ULP

                            I use stale petrol (with some 2 stroke mixed in as well) from the bike shop as my blending fuel.
                            Why Stale petrol?
                            Because it is a waste product which costs the shop $ to dispose of.
                            Because I get it for free.
                            This is a win:win solution for them and me.
                            I also believe that it has lost most of the volatiles which contribute to vapour lock, which has been reported by some blending with new ULP.

                            Regards,
                            Tony
                            Life is a journey, with problems to solve, lessons to learn, but most of all, experiences to enjoy.

                            Current Vehicles in stable:
                            '06 Musso Sports 4X4 Manual Crew Cab tray back.
                            '04 Rexton 4X4 Automatic SUV
                            '2014 Toyota Prius (on ULP) - Wife's car

                            Previous Vehicles:
                            '90 Mazda Capella. (2000 - 2003) My first Fatmobile. Converted to fun on veggie oil with a 2 tank setup.
                            '80 Mercedes 300D. 2 tank conversion [Sold]
                            '84 Mercedes 300D. 1 tank, no conversion. Replaced engine with rebuilt OM617A turbodiesel engine. Finally had good power. Engine donor for W123 coupe. (body parted out and carcass sold for scrap.)
                            '85 Mercedes Benz W123 300CD Turbodiesel
                            '99 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my darling Wife's car)[sold]
                            '98 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my car)[sold]
                            '06 Musso Sports Crew Cab well body. [Head gasket blew!]
                            '04 Rexton SUV 2.9L Turbodiesel same as Musso - Our Family car.
                            '06 Musso sports Crew Cab Trayback - My hack (no air cond, no heater).

                            Searching the Biofuels Forum using Google
                            Adding images and/or documents to your posts

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: SOV but is there ANY reason you would not blend 5% ULP

                              Discussions like this always intrigue me, especially all the technical claims, compared to the experience. Over the years have experimented with ULP, BD and diesel blends of up to 25% during winter, to see the results in actual practice. We are lucky in a way as we have 3 vehicles of the same make and model running VO, 2x12ht and 1x 2h land cruisers, along with various other machinery engines, boat and generators.

                              Our best results come from 10% BD, next was 10% dino and a long last with many associated problems for our climate, ULP. ULP, is not designed for use in a diesel engine, however you can put 25% in without instant problems. Years ago when experimenting, was able to meet and discuss this with engineers from the Antarctic division as they used ULP in the engines and had to change them over ever 2 seasons after running 24/7 for at least 2 years. They convinced me the long term damage caused by ULP , isn't observable until they are about to stop. The UlP scoured fuel system, diluted any form of lubrication in the diesel and when sulphur was removed, they had to replace some IP's, injectors, piston rings and fuel pumps within 6 months. Since changing their system and removing ULP, their engines are lasting 5-7 years without need of major overhaul. Don't know what they did, but it must have worked, the comment I got was, much better storage and pumping facilities and 2 stroke additive, as a fuel system lubricant.

                              Of course we use VO, so have no real problems with lubrication, but during the time I used ULP, had nothing but trouble and since switching to BD or dino as a winter blend, not even blocked filters which seem the norm with ULP, for some reason.

                              Why do people use ULP, which is incompatible with diesel technology, when using either BD or dino, doesn't the same job using compatible fuels. A practical answer to that would be appreciated and not the technical spin jargon, which has no practical experience backing.

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