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Tony From West Oz · 17 December 2007, 04:45 PM

Re: Hj45 Troopy Conversion

Froggo,
I recommend that if you are heating the diesel, that you add at least 2% oil to the start tank to improve the viscosity of the diesel.
NOTE: See correction in post below Viscosity was incorrect & should be replaced by lubricity.

I doubt whether you would need 2, 30 plate FPHEs. I feel that if you felt the need to provide 2 FPHEs, then the one before the IP should be a 10 plate at most. This will minimise the amount of oil to be purged during shut-down and reduce your conversion costs too.

In tests I have done, a 20 plate FPHE was able to raise the temperature of vegetable oil from 15�C to 80�C in about 6 minutes (including the warm up time of the engine) This test was conducted at full throttle on my 300D and represents the maximum fuel flow for this engine.

Here is the graph of the testing.

From this test, the need to use a 30 plate FPHE would need to be justified by more than "30 is 50% better than 20" logic. Even if the vehicle was operated in a significantly colder climate, the graph indicates that the oil was held within a couple of degrees of coolant temperatures once the engine had reached operating temperature. I suggest that this indicates that even if the fuel starting temperature was much lower, the FPHE would be capable of heating it to similar temperatures.

I have and plan to test a 10 plate FPHE under the same conditions (starting temp will be higher as it is Summer now) when I get time to install a 10 plate FPHE in the car. I would be prepared to test a 30 plate if anyone has one which they want tested. The results of these tests will be posted on this forum.

I do not have the means to test other fuel flow rates on my vehicles, or on the bench, but I will discuss this with other members of WARFA to see if we can perform these tests on other vehicles.

I hope this helps,
Tony

Fitian · 17 December 2007, 06:03 PM

Re: Hj45 Troopy Conversion

Froggo,

Not sure I understand you well on where the small filter is going to go. Before the FPHE or after? Better if before rather than after in my opinion.

My experience with Toyota and many other vehicls you do need two FPHE - one won't be enough "Think of WINTER". Also your engine does not heat up as fast as Mercedes 300D. Heater hose on your car is 5/8" not 3/4" like Mercedes. Coolant cycle on your car is different to Mercedes. So I strongly recommend a 30 FPHE before the veg oil filter for your car. Make sure you insulate your heat exchangers to keep the heat in.

I do not recommend a 30 plate before the IP if it will be sharing both fuels because it will make the purge time a little longer.

If the FPHE is sharing both fuels then a 20 Plate is enough. The price/size of 10 plate compared to 20 plate are hardly noticed.

You will not need injectors heater with 30 FPHE before the veg filter and a 20 FPHE sharing both fuels before the IP. Save your self some money and do not put load on the alternator. Heated fuel before the IP will deliever enough hot fuel for your engine.

The 1/2" fuel hose from the veg tank to the 30 FPHE is a good idea. Make sure the fuel goes from the bottom to the top while the cooland goes from the top to the bottom. That applies on both FPHEs.

Good luck mate.

froggo · 17 December 2007, 08:54 PM

Re: Hj45 Troopy Conversion

Hi Tony,
thanks for the tip about adding some wvo to the deisel tank. I've read somewhere about it but was not sure about the quantity/ratio to use.

The idea with the 30 fphe is the problem of winter temps here in northern country victoria. It's often below zero in the mornings and want to make sure that the filter does not clog because of low viscosity. I already have the parts for my conversion, except the hose clamps and brass barbs. I got the 30 fphe cheaper than most 10 fphe that I had seen so the cost is not a issue. The extra purge time I can live with.

What has concerned me though is how the fuel pump will react to the hot oil. I know that the oil will have cooled somewhat after going through the filter but will this be a issue? Thank you for adding your graph it's great work.

Hi Fitian,
let me say I love your work on those Landcruiser conversions!

The reason I was looking at putting a small screen/filter between the fphe and the ip was to stop any crud from going into the ip. I've heard about possible scale/peel comming out of the fphe where oil may bake onto the plates. If any gunk came loose and went through the ip it may cause issues. This may be a load of "scare tactics" to use other peoples designs but have you heard about it? I noticed that you do not have one on your toyota conversions, should I be worried about this filter on mine? I see that some who use glow plug fuel heaters put this screen/filter on their systems to stop carbon or dead glowplug fragments?

The 30 fphe before the ip, is the only reason you do not recommend this due to the extra purge time of the larger unit?

I've noticed that not many people seem to have the injector heaters so thanks for the advice Fitian I was unsure about their value.

Tony mentioned the adding of wvo to the deisel to help with the viscosity when heating both fuels. This would seem to be very important to protect the ip. What have you done with the landcruiser conversions you have done Fitian where you heat both fuels, if you don't mind telling me do you recommend a blend? I've also read that the normal running temp of the ip would heat standard dino deisel to similar temps that we heat the wvo too in our fphe? When you think of the engine as a big heater the ip must be very hot thus the dino deisel also? Is the blending necessary?
Does anyone have their engines normal operating temps, dino deisel temp after ip?

thanks for the feedback, Froggo

Fitian · 18 December 2007, 12:38 AM

Re: Hj45 Troopy Conversion

Originally posted by froggo

Hi Fitian,
let me say I love your work on those Landcruiser conversions!

The reason I was looking at putting a small screen/filter between the fphe and the ip was to stop any crud from going into the ip. I've heard about possible scale/peel comming out of the fphe where oil may bake onto the plates. If any gunk came loose and went through the ip it may cause issues. This may be a load of "scare tactics" to use other peoples designs but have you heard about it? I noticed that you do not have one on your toyota conversions, should I be worried about this filter on mine? I see that some who use glow plug fuel heaters put this screen/filter on their systems to stop carbon or dead glowplug fragments?

Thanks for your kind words. I can tell you have done fair home work to be able to do a neat conversion. We are luck to have this great forums "Thanks to Robert" that brings our idea closer for the good of all the members.

Mate, I have never heard of any dramas with FPHE. Coolant can never heat the oil above it's own temp so to my understanding oil will not create scale however you are safe to place SCREEN filter after the FPHE but I would not install an inline paper filter after FPHE. I did use a paper filter between the FPHE and the CAV but for a different reason.

Originally posted by froggo

The 30 fphe before the ip, is the only reason you do not recommend this due to the extra purge time of the larger unit?

If you place a 30 FPHE before the IP you will be making the burge time longer and also you will be heating more volume of fuel than needed. 20 plate is perfect.

Originally posted by froggo

Tony mentioned the adding of wvo to the deisel to help with the viscosity when heating both fuels.

This would seem to be very important to protect the ip.

Yes it is need only in cases like your engine since you have mentioned that your engine designed with no return fuel to the tank. Which means there is no wvo going to the start up tank throught the return line while changing over.

If this is the case then you need to add couple of liters of filtered wvo to the start up tank or run on suitable blend for winter and also suitable blend for summer. The reason for adding wvo is because you will be heating the start up fuel.

Starting from cold - the fuel will gradually heat up just like any other part under the bonnet and by the time the engine is ready you are also ready to change to wvo.. When switching back from wvo to diesel - everything is very hot and the diesel will be thinned down. this is why some wvo to it will make up for the lubricity lose.

In the land cruiser the 30 plate before the CAV filter is heating the wvo and the 20 plate before the IP is shared by both fuel. But this vehicle has a return line which allows for some wvo to get mixed with the start up fuel.

There is a legal issue with blending fuels with wvo - needs a different thread to talk about that.

I think some of the members here are more aware and knowledgable about blending techniques too.

Good luck

Tony From West Oz · 18 December 2007, 01:26 AM

Re: Hj45 Troopy Conversion

My apologies, my mention of the veggie in the diesel was not for viscosity, but for lubricity. The fuel is the lubricant the IP and injectors. Diesel lubricity falls with temperature increase. Adding veggie to diesel will provide additional lubrication of the IP and injectors for the heated diesel.

Tony From West Oz · 18 December 2007, 01:39 AM

Re: Hj45 Troopy Conversion

Froggo,
If you are concerned with the veggie solidifying in the fuel filter at low temperatures, then you should be considering some heating of the filter.
I have modified a CAV to have an electric heating element in it, but it was messy.
I have also had a heater fabricated out of a block of aluminum to fit between the glass bowl and the filter catridge. This is currently installed in one of my 300Ds, and has had no problems. It cost me $150.00 to have it made up. I can PM you with details if you like.

Some people in USA use fuel line to wrap the filter and run coolant through these lines to heat the filter.

Your best insurance would be to use well settled, cold filtered vegetable oil. If the oil is stored in an uninsulated building, it will quickly drop to ambient temperatures and any high melting point oils will drop out over a couple of days. By using the oil from the top of the container, you should have the best oil to use in your climatic conditions.

As the weather warms up, the oils which have solidified will melt again, providing liquid fuel for the warmer months.

Guest · 18 December 2007, 03:08 AM

Re: Hj45 Troopy Conversion

Originally posted by Tony From West Oz View Post

Froggo,
If you are concerned with the veggie solidifying in the fuel filter at low temperatures, then you should be considering some heating of the filter.
I have modified a CAV to have an electric heating element in it, but it was messy.
I have also had a heater fabricated out of a block of aluminum to fit between the glass bowl and the filter catridge. This is currently installed in one of my 300Ds, and has had no problems. It cost me $150.00 to have it made up. I can PM you with details if you like.

Some people in USA use fuel line to wrap the filter and run coolant through these lines to heat the filter.

This all sounds like a lot of trouble, expense, potential for failure and/ or complication when an easily acquired and installed FPHE before the filters will do a perfectly adequate job.

I think the simplest and most readily available solution would be far the best in this application.

I fully agree with putting a HE before the filters Froggo. I have filtered oil multiple times to remove fats but you never can tell when a colder day is going to come along than the day/ night you filtered. I also see the potential for exposed tanks to be chilled such as when driving in the rain which could induce significant wind chill factor to the fuel tank. With no return, there would be no heating from warm oil coming back so the tank could only get colder when driving not warmer.

I also believe some fats stay suspended and pass through filters but will settle out in time. This could be a concern with a large tank operating in cold conditions.
By adding a HE before the filters you can be less particular about filtering and not have to worry about blocked filters. The fats that drop out will pump easily and a HE before the filters will ensure they melt and don't block the filters. I have found that even with some fats condensing in the filters from the oil going cold, they will be heated and melted before the filter blocks completely if the heating is sufficient.

With a HE before the filters etc, the oil will flow through valves and other fuel components with much less resistance and at improved flow rates which would be important for a vehicle to operate under load.

froggo · 18 December 2007, 02:39 PM

Re: Hj45 Troopy Conversion

Hi Tony,
sorry my error on the issue of viscosity and lubricity. I've looked at many examples of filter heaters on offer from svo/wvo conversion companies as well as home made units. I'm more inclined to make mine if possible so I will keep your generous offer in mind if I have any problems. The main reason that I have a fphe before the filter is to heat the wvo so all fats will pass through.

I have a supply of cottonseed oil that contains some animal fat. I allow the oil to settle in the 20litre drums for as long as possible before I cold filter through a green safeway/woolworths bag. The oil then goes through a dairy milk pipe filter. These sock filters, filter the fresh milk in the dairy. At the moment I cannot find out what micron they are but its low. I want to cold filter to max of 5 micron before I use oil from this filter system. I'm still making a bubble dryer to add to the system. The oil I get shows only tiny bubbles in hot pan test with no crackle. I'm not even sure if this is water or trapped oxygen when the oil is poured into the pan?

Where is a good place to get some good wvo/svo 1-5 micron sock filters? If anyone has a good supplier I'm keen to get a few until I sort out the micron rating issues with the dairy socks I've got.

Hi Fitian, I don't know much about blending either. I started out several years ago making test batches of bio and a 50/50 blend of dino/wvo. This was just some mucking around when I was bored, you know boys stuff down the shed! I learn't enough though to skip making bio and try wvo. I just did not like the thought of paying the oil companies for methenol as well as deisel. The idea of a new thread is good does anyone know about the legal side of blending fuels in Australia?

Hi David,
your reply/ideas are along the same track as mine. I want to take as much stress as possible off the lift/fuel pump, by having 1/2 inch fuel line from the tank, flowing down hill through the fphe. The cav will be mounted high as a air bleed point and reduces the fuel line to 3/8 inch from then on. The 30 fphe should dissolve all fat particles for easy travel through the cav filter, reducing pressure on the fuel pump and the chance of vaccume air leaks. I still don't know about the hot oil in the fuel pump and how/if there will be any problems? Do you have any ideas on this?

I like your idea David regarding the cold filtering of wvo. My wvo pan test only shows tiny bubbles with no crackle and I'm not sure if its water? Your cold dryer uses a bubble stone/open top barrel with air flow across the top is this correct? This is what i will make to add to my system, it will be intresting to see if the tiny bubbles in my wvo disappear.

Thanks everyone and have a great christmas God bless,
froggo.

Mr Ute · 18 December 2007, 09:27 PM

Re: Hj45 Troopy Conversion

Originally posted by froggo View Post

My vehicle is used for off road work and needs to be simple and reliable.

For off road reliability I would recommend two fully independent systems - no shared components. I run separate fuel pump & filter in my MQ Patrol for total reliability.
If operating in cooler regions I think a heated filter is a must. I made an alloy filter heater as Tony mentioned when I first started with WVO and it works well. I run my Patrol in the central highlands, mid winter no problems. I only have one FPHE prior to the Pollock valve, but use a hose-in-hose from the tank to the engine bay. The tank is also coolant heated, but not that efficiently; it�s enough to stop the oil turning too thick in the snow.

Captain Echidna · 18 December 2007, 10:01 PM

Re: Hj45 Troopy Conversion

Originally posted by Tony From West Oz View Post

Froggo,
If you are concerned with the veggie solidifying in the fuel filter at low temperatures, then you should be considering some heating of the filter.

Originally posted by David View Post

This all sounds like a lot of trouble, expense, potential for failure and/ or complication when an easily acquired and installed FPHE before the filters will do a perfectly adequate job.

I think the problem Tony is suggesting is when the car starts from cold, if the filter is solid it wont flow oil, therefore it cant get hot oil from the FPHE. As you have said though it is hard and complicated to get it to go well, and I think the best solution is cold filtering oil, followed by the machined aluminium block inserted in the filter.

Tim-HJ61 · 19 December 2007, 01:19 AM

Re: Hj45 Troopy Conversion

Froggo,

I've been running my 12HT Landcruiser on various blends and now 100% canola in a two tank system for around three years.

I have not had any issues that are proved to be related to hot oil affecting the IP. I DO have an issue of slow idle - down to 500rpm from 700rpm when cold - that is easily fixed by using the hand throttle, and this 'may' be an issue related to long term use of heated oil, but I cannot prove or disprove this thought.

I have a single 10 plate heat exchanger that brings the temp up to coolant temperature well enough for me. I'll be talking to Tony about graphing the heat rise for all to critique.

I like the idea of a three way manual tap for an off-roader - 100% reliable, just not very convenient. If your three way valve has a 90� action as opposed to a 180� action, you could consider a push pull cable from Flexible Drive Agencies and control it from inside the cabin. (FDA Push-Pull Cables - Dash Controls - Flexible Drive Agencies Pty. Ltd)

Make sure you reduce the number of limitations in the flow. 12mm fuel line has made a big difference to my vehicle, as has duplicating the standard fuel filters in parallel to double the flow. All my 'cold' fuel lines are 12mm and my 'hot' fuel lines are 10mm as opposed to the 8mm standard.

I would not put a filter between the HE and the IP. You want maximum heat there and any filter will lose heat. You also want simple things to be able to diagnose and change. How will you know which filter is blocked, or if you are sucking air?? speaking from experience of problem solving beside the dusty roads :-)

Please also be aware you are likely to have a fine in tank filter - see thumbnail below. They are in the 60 and 80 series, and not accessible without removing the tank and fuel pickup in the 60 series. If you have starvation problems, look there.

Enjoy your learning experiences.

Tim

Attached Files

Captain Echidna · 19 December 2007, 11:41 AM

Re: Hj45 Troopy Conversion

Originally posted by David

Hi Chris,

I took it as a given that the oil would be cold filtered with minimal fats. With a predominantly fat free fuel, it would be highly unlikely that the filter would be solidly blocked. Even if it did, after a while the under bonnet heat would warm it through sufficiently to flow some oil. The fats I have encountered do not take much heat to melt them at all and if they are say even 20% of the total filter volume, I very much doubt they will block all flow through the filter.

Once the hot oil starts to flow it will rapidly unblock the filter of the small percentage of fats which would be present. I have tried this on my own car and was able to start with very fatty oil ( 50%) in the filter and the HE was able to get the fats flowing before the filter blocked and this was with a start on oil, not on Bio or dino which would allow some radiant heat to get to the filter during the warm up process. If all the fuel ran through a HE before the filters, then It would be virtually impossible to block a filter on mainly clear oil.

HE's are proven, reliable and cheap unlike heated filters which are either limited in what is available and expensive or have to be designed and fabricated individually which presents a whole range of problems in itself.

I agree with the dificulty in heating fuel filters, and the preferance for FPHE, and also agree with the FPHE doing a good job if there is flow. However I think the problem is cold filtering in places likely to have large temperature variations. Its likely to have a 25 degree warm day when oil is filtered, (melting lots of stuff that otherwise would sit in the filter) and that oil still be in the car a week latter when its -3 on a cold morning, I think the problem of the filter not being able to move oil at all is possible.
Though I would wait and see probably if heating the fuel filter is necesary.

froggo · 19 December 2007, 12:02 PM

Re: Hj45 Troopy Conversion

Hi Mr Ute,
my first ideas on my conversion were total seperation of the systems;
-two tanks, two electric pumps, pump at tank to push fuel thus no vaccume to cause air problems. stock pump not used and disabled.
-each fuel line has a one way valve right before joining together.
-each fuel has own cav filter
-wvo line to have fphe before cav
-fuel lines join via brass "T"
-bothfuels share a fphe before ip, located as close as possible to ip
Fuels are changed by flipping a 3way switch to shut off one electric pump and turn on the other.

The idea was for seperate systems and super quick purge time while keeping it simple. I believe this is one of the most out there idea that my friend Welder invented and I have been working on.
I am not doing my conversion this way on the HJ45 because we have still not decided on the type of lift pumps to use. We have been looking at some super tough adjustable psi gear pumps but they will break the bank and we need two each.

The issue of the filter clogging in cold temps is something that I will need to look at. Like David said I will only be cold filtering my oil and to date even on the coldest nights we have had this year my oil has not solidified. I do have some parts laying around in the shed so I can make a glow plug heater that will fit into one of the cav's extra ports. I have heaps of 100 deg C snap switches and relays to make it automatic. I do like Tony's idea but with the fphe before the cav I would only need to heat the filter for a very short time to get the oils/fat moving if required.

Hi Tim,
the 3 way valve has been on my mind for awhile as a bullet proof way to change over fuels. I've been thinking about a cable setup and also a rod to extend the valve shaft through the firewall into the cabin where the standard handle can be fitted onto the end of the rod to operate as normal. The ball valve looks like it will be ok to mount on the firewall because its very close to the fuel pump so the extended shaft may work. Thanks for the link, like most jobs its hard to know what will work best first time so I'm keeping the cable option open.

I'm going to use 1/2 inch line from the tank to the cav. The cav changes back to 3/8 inlets so I was going to do the same from cav to ip. I must say that your idea of 10mm has got me thinking thanks for the tip.

The filter between the fphe and the ip is more of a screen than a filter. I have no real solid data on a filter/screen being added here. It does give me comfort when I see other like Fitian and yourself not using them and not having any issues.

Hi Captain Echidna, Like you said I'm inclined to wait a bit on the filter heater since it's just the start of summer. I think that my system will be ok in most situations but I don't want to go trout fishing in snow country for the day and find my filter frozen soild when i try to change to wvo. I'm open to Tony and Mr Utes ideas since temps in the hills can be 4 seasons in one hour and i want my system to be able to cope with extremes.

Thanks for the input everyone and any suggestions are greatfully recieved,
Froggo.

Tim-HJ61 · 19 December 2007, 10:12 PM

Re: Hj45 Troopy Conversion

Originally posted by froggo View Post

Thanks for the link, like most jobs its hard to know what will work best first time so I'm keeping the cable option open.

I have an increasing pile of good gear that is simply just not suitable for the purpose I am using it for so is cast aside along with the rerouted fuel lines, replaced fuel lines, various incarnations of filters, placements and mounts under the bonnet.

We always think the first time is going to be the final effort, but in my case, and I don't think I am alone, there is always something better. Or perhaps it is a case of what you thought was going to be okay first off may still be okay, but geee, if I did THIS then think of how much better it would be ... you get the drift!

The biggest thing I have learnt that caused me problems is about fuel flow. Whether it be related to inadequate filter capacity, line capacity or whatever, the flow has to be adequate to compensate for the increased viscosity of our special fuel.

Learning the best you can from experience of others is a really good thing, but you'll learn so much from doing it, and then problem solving glitches both in the shed and by the road that you'll be able to fine tune and improve your own setup before no time. Landcruisers are in the minority for conversion, so we are often leading the way for our own engine/vehicle setup. I know I am - I've never corresponded with anyone running vege in a 12HT direct injection Landcruiser as I do.

Enjoy the learning experience!

Tim

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