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  • Generator Exhaust Through a Steel Wall

    Hi gents,

    As moving to our new property is getting closer, I have put all my off grid power stuff in a shipping container, the back of it has a more or less sound proof compartment to house our back up diesel generator. As one would think, diesel fumes, even BIO fumes should get out of this box somehow. Has anyone experience with running a exhaust through a solid steel wall? I am a bit concerned about the vibrations of the pipe. So I don't want to bolt it to the container directly. I was thinking about cutting a hole slightly bigger than the pipe and just seal that off with exhaust tape to prevent insects and the like from coming in.
    Thanks for your ideas!
    Jens
    1990 Toyota Hilux LN106 with ATG 2 tank system (sold after running 150.000 ks on mainly WVO)

    1993 Toyota 75 Series with 1 HDT conversion, 75l factory tank and a custom 170l under tray tank. (Retired with 680.000ks on the clock mostly running on BIO and on WVO)

    2006 Landcruiser Troopcarrier 1HZ with DTS Turbo Kit, 170ltr long range tank currently not converted, running on B100

    "him who never made a mistake, made no discovery either"


  • #2
    Re: Generator Exhaust Through a Steel Wall

    Hey Jens,

    Lag the pipe with insulation and wrap with a solid layer of foil. Then slip a 'deck-tight' over it and fix to the shipping container with screws. vibrations be gone. bugs be gone. rain be gone.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Generator Exhaust Through a Steel Wall

      Originally posted by Bueff View Post
      Hi gents,

      As moving to our new property is getting closer, I have put all my off grid power stuff in a shipping container, the back of it has a more or less sound proof compartment to house our back up diesel generator. As one would think, diesel fumes, even BIO fumes should get out of this box somehow. Has anyone experience with running a exhaust through a solid steel wall? I am a bit concerned about the vibrations of the pipe. So I don't want to bolt it to the container directly. I was thinking about cutting a hole slightly bigger than the pipe and just seal that off with exhaust tape to prevent insects and the like from coming in.
      Thanks for your ideas!
      Jens
      I think that it would also be a good idea to also have a fan and vent to remove the engine heat from the container and provide fresh air for the engine to use. If using a water cooled generator, it may be worthwhile installing the engine with the radiator sealed against a hole in a wall and change the fan to a blower fan, so the radiator heat goes out of the container.
      If the air going into the engine is hot, you get much less air into the combustion chambers because the air is less dense than cold air. This means that you will have significantly less power and greater fuel consumption.
      Life is a journey, with problems to solve, lessons to learn, but most of all, experiences to enjoy.

      Current Vehicles in stable:
      '06 Musso Sports 4X4 Manual Crew Cab tray back.
      '04 Rexton 4X4 Automatic SUV
      '2014 Toyota Prius (on ULP) - Wife's car

      Previous Vehicles:
      '90 Mazda Capella. (2000 - 2003) My first Fatmobile. Converted to fun on veggie oil with a 2 tank setup.
      '80 Mercedes 300D. 2 tank conversion [Sold]
      '84 Mercedes 300D. 1 tank, no conversion. Replaced engine with rebuilt OM617A turbodiesel engine. Finally had good power. Engine donor for W123 coupe. (body parted out and carcass sold for scrap.)
      '85 Mercedes Benz W123 300CD Turbodiesel
      '99 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my darling Wife's car)[sold]
      '98 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my car)[sold]
      '06 Musso Sports Crew Cab well body. [Head gasket blew!]
      '04 Rexton SUV 2.9L Turbodiesel same as Musso - Our Family car.
      '06 Musso sports Crew Cab Trayback - My hack (no air cond, no heater).

      Searching the Biofuels Forum using Google
      Adding images and/or documents to your posts

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Generator Exhaust Through a Steel Wall

        Thank you Cade and Tony,

        Yes there will be a fan that drags air trough the compartment to keep it cool, I did manage to stop by at a friend who is an mechanic last night, he suggested to weld the pipe through the wall and then use those flexible, woven connectors to stop the vibration, He also suggested the exhaust wrap to keep the heat down in the container as well as muffling more sound. I'd rather go through a wall than the roof, just to make sure it wont leak over time, I just don't trust silicone long therm:-)

        this is the unit,

        https://www.ablesales.com.au/generat...generator.html
        1990 Toyota Hilux LN106 with ATG 2 tank system (sold after running 150.000 ks on mainly WVO)

        1993 Toyota 75 Series with 1 HDT conversion, 75l factory tank and a custom 170l under tray tank. (Retired with 680.000ks on the clock mostly running on BIO and on WVO)

        2006 Landcruiser Troopcarrier 1HZ with DTS Turbo Kit, 170ltr long range tank currently not converted, running on B100

        "him who never made a mistake, made no discovery either"

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Generator Exhaust Through a Steel Wall

          OK, that unit does not lend itself to remote mounting of the radiator, so you will need additional ventilation. I believe that you will need a large fan to draw air into the container engine room and vents to allow it to blow out the heated air. I am thinking of something in the order of 2KW, possibly thermostatically activated, to minimise power draw.
          The dividing wall between your charger, battery & inverter area and the engine room should be well insulated too.

          I support your thoughts of taking the exhaust thru the wall, but disagree about welding it to the steel walls as I believe that exhaust heat will transfer to the steel walls and heat the container significantly.
          A pipe welded thru the wall, big enough to take a well insulated exhaust pipe, would work just a well though. External supports for the exhaust and a flexible coupling to the generator exhaust, may be needed to prevent metal fatigue in the exhaust system.

          Are you planning on a shade structure over the container, to reduce heat build up during the day?
          Life is a journey, with problems to solve, lessons to learn, but most of all, experiences to enjoy.

          Current Vehicles in stable:
          '06 Musso Sports 4X4 Manual Crew Cab tray back.
          '04 Rexton 4X4 Automatic SUV
          '2014 Toyota Prius (on ULP) - Wife's car

          Previous Vehicles:
          '90 Mazda Capella. (2000 - 2003) My first Fatmobile. Converted to fun on veggie oil with a 2 tank setup.
          '80 Mercedes 300D. 2 tank conversion [Sold]
          '84 Mercedes 300D. 1 tank, no conversion. Replaced engine with rebuilt OM617A turbodiesel engine. Finally had good power. Engine donor for W123 coupe. (body parted out and carcass sold for scrap.)
          '85 Mercedes Benz W123 300CD Turbodiesel
          '99 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my darling Wife's car)[sold]
          '98 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my car)[sold]
          '06 Musso Sports Crew Cab well body. [Head gasket blew!]
          '04 Rexton SUV 2.9L Turbodiesel same as Musso - Our Family car.
          '06 Musso sports Crew Cab Trayback - My hack (no air cond, no heater).

          Searching the Biofuels Forum using Google
          Adding images and/or documents to your posts

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Generator Exhaust Through a Steel Wall

            Put your radiator outside with an electric fan outside, otherwise you will have no chance of keeping the noise down. any hole big enough allow cooling air in / out will certainly cart the noise with it.

            Tony a shade structure is a great idea, My Dad simply fixed some joists down to the top of his container and screwed some second hand roofing iron on. dropped the temp big time.

            flexible couplings at the wall penetrations with a deck-tight to seal them will be a good solution.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Generator Exhaust Through a Steel Wall

              Thanks guys,

              yes there will be a corrugated roof over both, the bio and the power container,
              The compartment is made from 70 x 35 pine frames with sound barrier insulation between studs and ceiling joists. and 2 layers of sound stop plasterboard on walls and ceiling. There will be a door with vents in it inside the container, but the actual vents for fresh air will be in the doors of the container.
              They are custom made aluminium louvers with automotive sound shield stuck to them. The only large penetration through the wall is the 350 x 350 mm fan which has a baffled shaft also lines with sound shield.
              There is no connection to the walls and ceiling of the container, so there should be only minimal sound transfer through the floor. The generator is sitting on rubber mounts to minimize vibrations and I am hoping that the sweet smell of bio will be the only way for the neighbor to tell that the generator is running :-).
              They are about 70 m away up hill, maybe a bit of landscaping will come into play as well.
              Currently the generator is about 70db at 10m, if I can bring that down to 25db I am happy.
              1990 Toyota Hilux LN106 with ATG 2 tank system (sold after running 150.000 ks on mainly WVO)

              1993 Toyota 75 Series with 1 HDT conversion, 75l factory tank and a custom 170l under tray tank. (Retired with 680.000ks on the clock mostly running on BIO and on WVO)

              2006 Landcruiser Troopcarrier 1HZ with DTS Turbo Kit, 170ltr long range tank currently not converted, running on B100

              "him who never made a mistake, made no discovery either"

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Generator Exhaust Through a Steel Wall

                Sound proofing a generator is a complicated task. I have had quite a bit of experience in this field both as a noise compliance officer with the Government and later working with an off grid solar installer. Working through all the issues here would take me ages. Will try and keep it brief. To stop noise you need 2 elements, a barrier (steel container walls, gyprock or similar solid materials) and absorbent (sound shield, heavy insulation). In addition all holes must be sealed up. This obviously can't work with a generator and is the hardest part to deal with. As the generator has the radiator at one end this could be made to match an opening in the container, ideal if the genny has a blower fan. Air can come in elsewhere, through double louvers with sound shield on them. The generator room should have absorbent on the walls to prevent reverberation in the room which amplifies the noise emitted. This will work far better than just having insulation within the wall. All getting very expensive I know. I have seen lots of money spent to little effect because holes/vents in the structure negated insulation efforts and too light a material was used as a barrier which then vibrated, adding to the noise. I could go on but, yawn.
                I would face the radiator vent away from your house and definitely put the exhaust through the roof not the wall, use a double pipe through a large dektite.
                Johnnojack
                Senior Member
                Last edited by Johnnojack; 25 July 2017, 12:23 AM.
                Johnnojack
                4WD Isuzu Jackaroo 3.1 200000km on WVO,(2020) 2 tank home built system 6 solenoids FPHE, heated filter fuel line and tank pickup for thicker oil. Mk. 9 version now and no changes planned as trouble free.
                Mercedes W201 190D 1986 model: 2 tank system, bigger fuel line from tank, no heat exchanger, electric pump for diesel 22000km so far sigpic

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Generator Exhaust Through a Steel Wall

                  The exhaust through the wall emits a lot of noise, the wall then acts as an amplifier like the back of a guitar. Put exhaust on the roof and most of this noise is gone
                  Johnnojack
                  4WD Isuzu Jackaroo 3.1 200000km on WVO,(2020) 2 tank home built system 6 solenoids FPHE, heated filter fuel line and tank pickup for thicker oil. Mk. 9 version now and no changes planned as trouble free.
                  Mercedes W201 190D 1986 model: 2 tank system, bigger fuel line from tank, no heat exchanger, electric pump for diesel 22000km so far sigpic

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Generator Exhaust Through a Steel Wall

                    Thanks Johnno,

                    The generator has its own fan wich pulls air though the sides of the housing over the engine and out the end, where I have placed the fan in the wall to try to pull the warmer air out of the compartment.

                    Originally posted by Johnnojack View Post
                    The generator room should have absorbent on the walls to prevent reverberation in the room which amplifies the noise emitted. This will work far better than just having insulation within the wall. .
                    I was thinking along these lines, I have a mate with a carpet business and was wondering if I was to "hang" carpet of the walls to try to stop the vibrations before they get to bounce off the wall, that's much cheaper than the egg shell foam stuff.

                    The exhaust through the wall emits a lot of noise, the wall then acts as an amplifier like the back of a guitar. Put exhaust on the roof and most of this noise is gone

                    interesting point, excuse my smart ass question, why would the roof not act like a amplifier too?

                    would that be because of the directional noise then?

                    Would it make it worse with having a corrugated roof over the container?

                    Loving your work guys !!!

                    Thanks
                    1990 Toyota Hilux LN106 with ATG 2 tank system (sold after running 150.000 ks on mainly WVO)

                    1993 Toyota 75 Series with 1 HDT conversion, 75l factory tank and a custom 170l under tray tank. (Retired with 680.000ks on the clock mostly running on BIO and on WVO)

                    2006 Landcruiser Troopcarrier 1HZ with DTS Turbo Kit, 170ltr long range tank currently not converted, running on B100

                    "him who never made a mistake, made no discovery either"

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Generator Exhaust Through a Steel Wall

                      My generator is housed in a metal room beside my workshop, the exhaust goes through the wall near the roof and down into a water filled drum out the back. When first set up, it created a huge amount of noise and vibration, didn't notice it to much until was wondering what the weird rumbling noise was when out in a paddock on a tractor, close to 1klm away.

                      Tried carpet on the walls and insulated the exhaust more, but it still made lots of noise. So bought some of that expanding foam in a can, put some ply lining on the interior walls and roof and pumped in the foam. Then wrapped insulation round the exhaust where it goes through the wall and buffered it by cutting a tyre up and put that round the exhaust pipe where it goes through the wall, also put a wood block so the exhaust wouldn't vibrate out. Did end up installing one of those flexible bits on the pipe which reduced the vibration to almost zero and the noise that comes from the shed now, is a very low hum. You have to get close to the shed before you hear it. Until you open the door, also hung a light carpet across the door on the inside, this reduced the noise coming through the door edges considerably. Have 2 fans on the shed, one pumps hot air from the shed into the workshop and the other is used in summer to disperse the hot air to the outside. It heats the workshop from cold to bearable and there is no smell from the old lister, have the engine breather plumbed to the outside.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Generator Exhaust Through a Steel Wall

                        You could dispense with the fan pushing hot air out of the container if you connect the generator radiator outlet to the vent of the container with a rubber gasket of some sort. Yes heavy carpet will work, not as well as auto sound shield but if free the value is much better. Don't use foam under felt it is too light, weak and burns too. Maybe wool carpet. Fit in such a way that rodents can't make it home. Yes the roof will also act as an amplifier but on flat land the only people affected will be those in light aircraft as the sound goes up. You say the neighbor is 70m away up hill, hoping the hill is not too steep as noise travels uphill much better than on the flat. The corrugated roof may vibrate if the exhaust outlet is too close, take it up a metre or so and you should be right.
                        Johnnojack
                        4WD Isuzu Jackaroo 3.1 200000km on WVO,(2020) 2 tank home built system 6 solenoids FPHE, heated filter fuel line and tank pickup for thicker oil. Mk. 9 version now and no changes planned as trouble free.
                        Mercedes W201 190D 1986 model: 2 tank system, bigger fuel line from tank, no heat exchanger, electric pump for diesel 22000km so far sigpic

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Generator Exhaust Through a Steel Wall

                          I still think there is value in pulling the radiator off the gen set and investing in some hoses and an electric fan and put the radiator outside. I would definitely do that. you are actively carting heat out of the container with the fluid not the air. The less holes you have in the walls / roof the better if you are worried about noise. the smallest of holes that isnt treated right will let out a heap of noise. small holes for the hoses are super simple to seal with a dektite (spelled correctly this time!)

                          If you really wanted to knock the noise down, you would build a plasterboard wall on studs inside the container, and fill the cavity with insulation. USG boral publish data that certifies (tested in a lab) that a single 10mm normal plasterboard sheet on one side of a timber stud wall with no insulation will knock 27 decibels off the transmission. upgrade that to 2 layers of 10mm pbd and you get a reduction of 33 decibels. insulation properly packed will go further again. of course you can do all of that later if it is too noisy, as that represents dollars.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Generator Exhaust Through a Steel Wall

                            Originally posted by Captaincademan View Post
                            I still think there is value in pulling the radiator off the gen set and investing in some hoses and an electric fan and put the radiator outside. I would definitely do that. you are actively carting heat out of the container with the fluid not the air. The less holes you have in the walls / roof the better if you are worried about noise. the smallest of holes that isnt treated right will let out a heap of noise. small holes for the hoses are super simple to seal with a dektite (spelled correctly this time!)

                            SNIP.
                            Cade, I suggest that using the radiator fan to blow the air thru the radiator and outside the container will work better than moving the radiator outside.
                            My justification is that the engine heat is also moved outside by the fan pushing air from inside the generator enclosure to outside the container.

                            Obviously, replacement air needs to come into the container, so a suitably sized filtered vent will be necessary. By using wood to make an "n" shaped inlet duct, the engine noise would be significantly attenuated outside the container. Suitable weather protection for the wood will ensure a long life for the duct. The duct should have a cross sectional area similar to the radiator opening.

                            Relocating the radiator outside will still leave a large, hot lump of metal to heat up the engine room. It would still need to have an air inlet to replace the air used by the engine. (eg, a 1 litre 4st engine will use 750 Litres of air per minute at 1500 RPM. The advert does not give the engine cubic capacity, so used 1 litre for this example)
                            Life is a journey, with problems to solve, lessons to learn, but most of all, experiences to enjoy.

                            Current Vehicles in stable:
                            '06 Musso Sports 4X4 Manual Crew Cab tray back.
                            '04 Rexton 4X4 Automatic SUV
                            '2014 Toyota Prius (on ULP) - Wife's car

                            Previous Vehicles:
                            '90 Mazda Capella. (2000 - 2003) My first Fatmobile. Converted to fun on veggie oil with a 2 tank setup.
                            '80 Mercedes 300D. 2 tank conversion [Sold]
                            '84 Mercedes 300D. 1 tank, no conversion. Replaced engine with rebuilt OM617A turbodiesel engine. Finally had good power. Engine donor for W123 coupe. (body parted out and carcass sold for scrap.)
                            '85 Mercedes Benz W123 300CD Turbodiesel
                            '99 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my darling Wife's car)[sold]
                            '98 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my car)[sold]
                            '06 Musso Sports Crew Cab well body. [Head gasket blew!]
                            '04 Rexton SUV 2.9L Turbodiesel same as Musso - Our Family car.
                            '06 Musso sports Crew Cab Trayback - My hack (no air cond, no heater).

                            Searching the Biofuels Forum using Google
                            Adding images and/or documents to your posts

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Generator Exhaust Through a Steel Wall

                              Valid point about the heat from the engine block. end result is big holes in the walls. sound is going to be difficult to cut down, especially at night when you just want to run a few things (telly, lights etc), but maybe you could hook up a battery system for that occasion.

                              good luck with it Jens, you have an interesting project on your hands. keen to see your end result.

                              Comment

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