40,000 kms Without Petrol Stations

[250downunder Donating Member Find all posts View Profile Close 250downunder]

Re: 40,000 kms Without Petrol Stations

Finely filtered Bio is easily achieved, the viscosity of the material will remain unchanged. Isn't the higher viscosity of Bio one of the problems with high pressure common rail fuel systems.

[geewizztoo Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close geewizztoo]

Re: 40,000 kms Without Petrol Stations

Good luck boys, stay focused on your goals and don't let anyone put doubt in your minds. I think your major challenges will be logistical and political rather than technical. Processing issues are manageable, check your messages I've listed a few suggestions.

[tillyfromparadise Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close tillyfromparadise]

Re: 40,000 kms Without Petrol Stations

to make your bio quickly you might want to make it with KOH, as it reacts more quickly,

I have never heard that before. Can you give a link to where you found that information

I know this is how the commercial guys do it

I think you will find that the majority of the commercial guys use sodium methylate.

and can make a batch in 20 minutes I've heard.

It all depends on temperature and vigour of mixing.
Mike Jureidini from SAFF once said their reactor achieved 99% conversion to ester in 10 seconds, mostly due to the vigor of the mixing .

[smithw Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close smithw]

Re: 40,000 kms Without Petrol Stations

Hi tilly Have a look at the book biodiesel for the small producer by paul martin. isbn 0-646-45757-8
Biodiesel for the Small Producer - Google Books
has a sample of the book there are 40 pages in all.
as far as the comerical guys making it in 20 mins this was to the end product washed and dryed, and I meet a guy who worked at a plant in SA before it was closed down and he told me they used a centrifuge and koh, I only repeating what ive been told.
also I have used both Naoh, and KOH methods and Koh is way faster.
hope this helps.

[tillyfromparadise Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close tillyfromparadise]

Re: 40,000 kms Without Petrol Stations

Hi tilly Have a look at the book biodiesel for the small producer by paul martin. isbn 0-646-45757-8
Biodiesel for the Small Producer - Google Books
has a sample of the book there are 40 pages in all.

I have had a look and I can not find where Paul says that the KOH reaction is faster than the NaOH reaction. Can you provide the page number?

as far as the comerical guys making it in 20 mins this was to the end product washed and dryed,

Produced, washed and dried in 20 minutes is pretty remarkable. As I recall Myke said the SAFF reactor was a continuous processor and the oil had a 15 minute residence time in the reactor. That leaves 5 minutes for washing and drying. Can you provide a link?

and I meet a guy who worked at a plant in SA before it was closed down and he told me they used a centrifuge and koh, I only repeating what ive been told.

That might be one of the reasons why they are closed. If they were not using sodium methylate they should have been using Sodium Hydroxide, it is a cheaper than Potassium hydroxide.
Biodiesel magazine says; "Today sodium methylate is estimated to represent 70 percent of the global biodiesel catalyst market."

also I have used both Naoh, and KOH methods and Koh is way faster.

I have used both too and I never came to the conclusion that KOH was "way faster". I think they are about the same but have never performed and lab tests to prove it one way or the other.
Can you describe the testing procedures you used to determine that the KOH reaction was faster than the NaOH reaction?

[Captaincademan Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Captaincademan]

Re: 40,000 kms Without Petrol Stations

Geewiz, i think your right on the money. Logistics will be the biggest hurdle. When it comes down to it, 40k aint that far in a short time. Any mech worth his salt should be able to bodge his way there. i suggest driving to darwin on the worst roads you can find. Try the plenty highway from boulia to alice. need a good testing ground. Take a pre-adjusted IP with you, and spare injectors.

[smithw Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close smithw]

Re: 40,000 kms Without Petrol Stations

hi tilly whats with all the questions? Page 13 in the book has the pros and cons of KOH and Naoh, which is not on the link as there are only 14 pages on the link.
from what others have told me with there experience using both koh and naoh and my own experience I would say that koh is faster, and no I haven't done any scientific testing. when I make bio and tip in the methoxide, the reaction is within a few seconds you can see reaction take place, with naoh, Ive found in the same processor and the same temperature it can take 15, 20 minuter to get the same colour.

the plant in SA closed down about 6 or 8 years ago, I think it was more a tax/excite issue, more than anything.
I cant provide a link to the process that they used, it was just a conversation that i had with him.

[tillyfromparadise Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close tillyfromparadise]

Re: 40,000 kms Without Petrol Stations

hi tilly whats with all the questions?

Hi smithw,
There is already enough inaccurate information concerning boidiesel production floating around. Remember the warning about the "Natural Rubber" fuel lines that were apparently all the rage prior to 1995? It never happened.
When someone presents information that does not agree with what is "Common Knowledge" it is desireable to also present supporting documentation

Page 13 in the book has the pros and cons of KOH and Naoh, which is not on the link as there are only 14 pages on the link.

I have located the book to page 24 on the internet and page 13 is titled Biodiesel in a Bottle. Hmmm, Why does that sound vaguely familiar?? There is not mention of the Pros and Cons of NaOH and KOH on that page.
The table of contents does not list a page Pros and Cons of KOH and NaOH. Can you post the Pros and Cons listed in your book so I can contact Paul Martin about it.

from what others have told me with there experience using both koh and naoh and my own experience I would say that koh is faster,

That has not been my experience. They seem to be very similar in reaction speed.

and no I haven't done any scientific testing. when I make bio and tip in the methoxide, the reaction is within a few seconds you can see reaction take place, with naoh, Ive found in the same processor and the same temperature it can take 15, 20 minuter to get the same colour.

My experience has been that the change of colour you are talking about occures within a few seconds whether you use NaOH or KOH. Try a few Dr Pepper batches to see what I mean.

the plant in SA closed down about 6 or 8 years ago, I think it was more a tax/excite issue, more than anything.
I cant provide a link to the process that they used, it was just a conversation that i had with him.

So you do not really know what they were using. Fair enough.

[smithw Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close smithw]

Re: 40,000 kms Without Petrol Stations

hi again tilley, you may want to redo your link as it dosent work it has an extra [/url on the end, I was able to open it by removing [/url
The book is different to my one, as mine is 2006 that one is 2008. maybe he has updated his method or just trying to sell more books. the bio diesel in a bottle is not even in the 2006 version and is not the process outlined in the book.
page 13 in my book says
"It is highly recommended that you KOH not Naoh as some recipes sugggest.
Naoh requires half the amount of catalyst but KOH is a dream to use compared toto all the extra issues when using Naoh, especially when using fats as feedstock and/or water is present in the feedstock. Note there is often fat and always water in used cooking oil".
This was also the what he said when I meet him in 2006.

I changed to KOH because of the problems i had with fats in the oil, and I have a friend who gives me his fatty oil because he has the same problems, using Naoh.
Maybe you are using a different process, and can share your secret? I wouldn't mine going back to Naoh if i could get the same result, as naoh is 1/2 the price of KOH.
I was interested to know how quickly you could process wash and dry bio using a centrifuge, I will have to see if I can borrow one and give it a try.

[tillyfromparadise Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close tillyfromparadise]

Re: 40,000 kms Without Petrol Stations

hi again tilley, you may want to redo your link as it dosent work it has an extra [/url on the end, I was able to open it by removing [/url

Thanks for the heads up. Apparently I did not check the hyperlink. It is now fixed.

The book is different to my one,...page 13 in my book says
"It is highly recommended that you KOH not Naoh as some recipes sugggest.
Naoh requires half the amount of catalyst but KOH is a dream to use compared toto all the extra issues when using Naoh, especially when using fats as feedstock and/or water is present in the feedstock. Note there is often fat and always water in used cooking oil".
This was also the what he said when I meet him in 2006.

Do you notice that he does not list "faster reaction time" as one of the Pros of using KOH?

I changed to KOH because of the problems i had with fats in the oil, and I have a friend who gives me his fatty oil because he has the same problems, using Naoh.

Yes, KOH is often easier to use than NaOH, but that has nothing to do with speed of the reaction. If I had my 'Druthers" I would druther use KOH for the reaction because it is nicer to use, NOT because it gives a faster reaction time.

Maybe you are using a different process, and can share your secret? I wouldn't mine going back to Naoh if i could get the same result, as naoh is 1/2 the price of KOH.

I use the 2 stage base/base method Neutral developed a few years ago. I will post it it in it's own thread.

I was interested to know how quickly you could process wash and dry bio using a centrifuge, I will have to see if I can borrow one and give it a try.

I do not use a centrifuge and I am not trying to produce biodiesel in the shortest amount of time.

[Johnnojack Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Johnnojack]

Re: 40,000 kms Without Petrol Stations

To get back to the original idea of making bio on the road and using it in a common rail motor - I think it is seriously flawed. I doubt if any of the experience bio makers on this forum would consider it. I wouldn't either.
A better way to do it would be to source a vehicle with an inline mechanical IP. There are plenty of late model trucks around with motors like that and they would be very forgiving of unwashed or partly converted biodiesel. Getting a new set of common rail injectors and getting them fitted in India would be an interesting and expensive exercise.
FWIW I fitted my entire filtering and pumping equipment into a 15litre plastic tub (yes 15 litres) when we did 9400km to the Cape and back. Just a bit less space than a ute load of processor plus chemicals.
Doing the trip on WVO would be quite achievable with the correct vehicle. Maybe a small demo bio unit could be taken along for publicity.

[tillyfromparadise Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close tillyfromparadise]

Re: 40,000 kms Without Petrol Stations

I have to admit, their videos certainly gave me a few chuckles. But 6 months experience making biodiesel certainly qualifies them as experts.
Just one question about your making biodiesel video. Do yo realize that if you are water washing your biodiesel it is not necessary to evaporate the methanol out first.
I do wonder how many third world countries actually have "Waste" frying oil that they just throw away. Or how many families in third world countries have diesel vehicles.

I am also not sure how this trip is supposed to raise awareness of biodiesel, but then people set out and walk long distances to raise money in support of their favorite charity so anything is possible.

I think that at this point they should contact Keith Addison at Journey to forever for a few pointers on how to raise money.
As most of you know, about 11 years ago Keith anounced that he would be doing something vaguely similar to this to save the third world and has been vigerously collecting donations ever since in preperation to set out and save all the poor people of the world.
I have it on good authority that the "Journey" might possibly begin sometime in the next 10- 15 years.

[Tim-HJ61 Donating Member Find all posts View Profile Close Tim-HJ61]

Re: 40,000 kms Without Petrol Stations

Not heard anything back from the guys to this thread for a while.
See them on tele but not much detail for us to guide them. Now it's a boat but no sign of a vehicle. I doubt it's the Paj, they talked about a truck before.

Present us with your solutions and well let you know what we think.

Tim

[Johnnojack Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Johnnojack]

Re: 40,000 kms Without Petrol Stations

Well they have popped up again, here.
Aussie website makes anything Pozible - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

Seems they have found a way to raise money thou ASIC is asking questions about it. They don't seem to be any further ahead with their fuel issues though.

[tillyfromparadise Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close tillyfromparadise]

Re: 40,000 kms Without Petrol Stations

Originally supposed to be starting in March. They should be on their way.
Any updates? Are they in Darwin yet?