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  • #16
    Re: bio diesel wash

    In simple terms Wesley, does this mean that the use of Magnesol would lighten the colour of biodiesel derived from the acid esterification process.

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    • #17
      Re: bio diesel wash

      Yes, I expect magnesium silicate will remove the brown colored portion of biodiesel from the not brown colored biodiesel liquid. I'm not sure that Magnesol is 99% magnesium silicate. The brown color is due to a sulfuric acid molecule attaching to (bonding with) a biodiesel molecule, A chemist told me sulfur bonded to carbon can produce a brown colored product. The long carbon chain on fatty acids is non-polar. If sulfuric acid attaches to a non-polar carbon chain, then around that part of the molecule it's polar. The word polar indicates a significant charge difference from one part of the molecule relative to a different part of the molecule. One part of the molecule would be relatively negative compared to another part (another atom in the same molecule) of the molecule which would be relatively positive. Polar or polar covalent molecules hold to magnesium silicate, and can be removed from a solution of nonpolar molecules that are biodiesel (fatty acid methyl esters). Also, magnesium silicate is a white solid. If a brown material adheres to the white solid and the solid is filtered out, you will be able to see a color change in the white magnesium silicate. If you have a beaker and a magnetic stirring hot plate, then do an experiment. Put 500 milliliters of your biodiesel with brown crud liquid in it. Heat biodiesel in an adequately ventillated area to 95 degrees centigrade with fast stirring for about thirty minutes with say 5 grams of magnesium silicate. Shut down the stirring hot plate. Allow most of the magnesium silicate to settle out. Vaccum filter the biodiesel through a 20 micron paper filter. Then vacuum filter through a 1 micron paper filter. Decant the biodiesel off the settled magnesium silicate solid material (gently pour off the top liquid, while minimally disturbing the magnesium silicate on the bottom of the beaker). You will be able to see that the white solid has taken on a brown color (probably). In this way you can remove most of the sulfuric acid catalyst that reacted with fatty acid esters in the biodiesel. Which would lower the sulfur content of biodiesel made using sulfuric acid esterification as part of the process. A Buchner filtration funnel is the right type of funnel to use in this vaccum filtration and a vacuum filtration flask. Vacuum filtration is a lot faster in this application. A regular filtration funnel at atmospheric pressure might take a very long time to do, if it worked at all for 1/2 a litre of biodiesel.
      WesleyB
      Donating Member
      Last edited by WesleyB; 3 March 2017, 09:28 PM. Reason: wrote it backwards

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      • #18
        Re: bio diesel wash

        Hi WesleyB,

        Originally posted by WesleyB View Post
        The brown color is due to a sulfuric acid molecule attaching to (bonding with) a biodiesel molecule,
        Can you please be more specific about why this causes the oil to change in colour. For instance, what chemical change has occurred to produce the change in colour




        [A chemist told me sulfur bonded to carbon can produce a brown colored product.
        Did the chemist say what this brown coloured product is and the chemical reaction that caused it?

        For instance, about an hour ago I dipped a strip of cardboard taken from a Dr Pepper 6 pack into some concentrated H2SO4. The Cardboard immediately started going black. I then got a cotton bud and rubbed the blackened area of the cardboard and it feels "gooey".
        Now an hour later the cardboard is still black and falls apart easily

        It looks like there is probably a more significant chemical reaction occurring than just colouring the paper black.
        tillyfromparadise
        Senior Member
        Last edited by tillyfromparadise; 3 March 2017, 12:54 PM.

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        • #19
          Re: bio diesel wash

          Tilly; I explained it in this thread. The protons produced from sulfuric acid in reaction solution form a bond on one of the two carbon atoms in a double bond in the long carbon chain of a fatty acid leaving the carbon atom next to or two carbon atoms away aqacent to the new bond electron deficient (poisitive) so the sulfuric acid ion with one hydrogen removed (negative) attacks the positive carbon, bonding with it. So you get sulfuric acid bonded to the long fatty acid carbon chain in roughly the middle of the twelve to twenty two long carbon chain that are fatty acids. The product molecule has a brown color due to the sulfur being present. I probably never wrote that biological produced moleculeces have an even number of carbon atoms in multiples of two. So fatty acids have 12, 14, 16, 18, 20 and 22 carbon atoms bonded to each other in a chain. I don't know why this occurs in even numbers.

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          • #20
            Re: bio diesel wash

            Hi Wesley,
            I am sorry, I do not understand your explanation- I am not a chemist.

            I have read that H2SO4 is a strong oxidizing agent.
            " It will char wood and most other organic matter on contact, but is unlikely to cause a fire."

            The Chemist Neutral explained that the reason for the darker colour was that "Conc sulphuric acid burns organic compounds."
            If this is not what you are trying to say, To quote smithy "In simple terms Wesley," please explain what you mean without going into detail of the chemistry involved
            tillyfromparadise
            Senior Member
            Last edited by tillyfromparadise; 4 March 2017, 12:42 AM.

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            • #21
              Re: bio diesel wash

              I will try to explain it understandably. I was a cemistry tudor paid money by the government here to teach freshman first year college chemistry. A strong acid (sulfuric) produces a proton. A proton is a hydrogen atom without an electron accompanying it. Hydrogen gas occurs as two hydrogen atoms bonded to each other with two electrons shared between the two protons. Sulfuric acid has a central sulfur atom with four oxygen bonded to the center sulfur atom. Two of those oxygen atoms in the molecule are bonded to two hydrogen atoms. When one or both of those hydrogen atoms separate from the group of bonded, connected atoms that make the molecule of sulfuric acid then the disconnected part is a proton with a positive charge, but the larger group of bonded atoms Sulfur, 4 oxygens, 1 hydrogen are left with one positive charge (the proton) subtracted from the bonds being balanced so the molecule has as many protons as electrons. So the remaing ion structure is one positive charge (the proton that disconnected) short of the molecule having an equal number of negative charge electrons as positive charge protons. So sulfuric acid can lose two protons as an acid. Sulfuric acid is not the easiest strong acid to explain this with. But in a free fatty acid, some of the molecules have double bonds. That means a single bond directly between the two atoms nucleus, but the second bond is a phi bond that sticks out on the side along the long carbon chain of 12-22 carbon atoms. When a proton from sulfuric acid ionizes (disconnects) from sulfuric acid, electrophillic addition occurs on a fatty acid molecule with a double bond. The positive proton attacks the two electrons in the double bond between two carbon atoms in th e chain of carbons and forms a bond with one of the two carbons, which leaves the other carbon or the carbon next to it electron deficient, a positive charge. Then the negatively charged sulfuric acid ion that lost a proton attacks the positive carbon atom and forms a bond with it. So sulfuric acid bonds with the long fatty acid carbon chain making a brown crud material that is a polar molecule that will adhere to magnesium silicate solid, that can be filtered out of solution.

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              • #22
                Re: bio diesel wash

                Hi Wesley
                Originally posted by WesleyB View Post
                I will try to explain it understandably. I was a cemistry tudor paid money by the government here to teach freshman first year college chemistry.
                That is interesting. Most of us are not first year chemistry students.



                A strong acid (sulfuric) produces a proton. A proton is a hydrogen atom without an electron accompanying it. Hydrogen gas occurs as two hydrogen atoms bonded to each other with two electrons shared between the two protons. Sulfuric acid has a central sulfur atom with four oxygen bonded to the center sulfur atom. Two of those oxygen atoms in the molecule are bonded to two hydrogen atoms. When one or both of those hydrogen atoms separate from the group of bonded, connected atoms that make the molecule of sulfuric acid then the disconnected part is a proton with a positive charge, but the larger group of bonded atoms Sulfur, 4 oxygens, 1 hydrogen are left with one positive charge (the proton) subtracted from the bonds being balanced so the molecule has as many protons as electrons. So the remaing ion structure is one positive charge (the proton that disconnected) short of the molecule having an equal number of negative charge electrons as positive charge protons. So sulfuric acid can lose two protons as an acid. Sulfuric acid is not the easiest strong acid to explain this with. But in a free fatty acid, some of the molecules have double bonds. That means a single bond directly between the two atoms nucleus, but the second bond is a phi bond that sticks out on the side along the long carbon chain of 12-22 carbon atoms. When a proton from sulfuric acid ionizes (disconnects) from sulfuric acid, electrophillic addition occurs on a fatty acid molecule with a double bond. The positive proton attacks the two electrons in the double bond between two carbon atoms in th e chain of carbons and forms a bond with one of the two carbons, which leaves the other carbon or the carbon next to it electron deficient, a positive charge. Then the negatively charged sulfuric acid ion that lost a proton attacks the positive carbon atom and forms a bond with it.
                This part does not have any meaning to me. I am not a chemist. My last chemistry class was in high school in about 1959.
                Because I do not understand what you are saying, I am not interested in the nitty gritty and intricacies of the chemical reactions involved with how you arrived at your answer.
                I suspect there are very few forum members who will understand it or even be able to read it easily. Please use paragraphs.





                So sulfuric acid bonds with the long fatty acid carbon chain making a brown crud material that is a polar molecule that will adhere to magnesium silicate solid, that can be filtered out of solution.
                This part is starting to make a bit of sense.
                What is this brown crud material that you refer to? Is it the product of the Oxidation that occurs when Concentrated H2SO4 comes into contact with organic material?


                A SUGGESTION
                I can tell you do have knowledge in chemistry.
                Most of the people in this forum are not chemists.

                When you answer a question by first going through a long drawn out explanation of all the chemical reactions that occurred or might possibly occur and also do not use paragraphs to present the information in a way that is easy to read, many people [such as me] will just turn off and stop reading.

                You should go and read some of Neutral's replies to people. He could answer 99.9% of questions asked him without explaining the chemical reactions involved.
                Neutral had an exceptional ability to explain chemistry to people who did not understand chemistry so they would understand it- or at least we thought we did.

                FOR INSTANCE
                In your most recent post all you needed to write was;

                "Sulfuric acid bonds with the long fatty acid carbon chain making a brown crud material that is a polar molecule that will adhere to magnesium silicate solid, that can be filtered out of solution."

                That is ALL you needed to say-
                Then it would not matter that you do not use paragraphs. You would have answered smithy's question and everyone would have understood what you were trying to say.
                tillyfromparadise
                Senior Member
                Last edited by tillyfromparadise; 4 March 2017, 03:26 PM.

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                • #23
                  Re: bio diesel wash

                  Wesley,
                  I support what Tilly was trying to say.
                  Basically, when talking chemistry to chemistry students or those with highre learning in chemistry, use your knowledge to explain fully.

                  When talking to amateur / hobbyist veggies or biodiesel producers, please use the simplest explanation possible. That way, your post will get read and most likely will be understood by most readers.

                  Your Chemistry lesson went way over my head, right at the start of your post, and I lost interest and stopped reading it.
                  Had you responded with the sentence that Tilly gleaned from your post, I would have read that and understood the process to the extent that I needed to.
                  Life is a journey, with problems to solve, lessons to learn, but most of all, experiences to enjoy.

                  Current Vehicles in stable:
                  '06 Musso Sports 4X4 Manual Crew Cab tray back.
                  '04 Rexton 4X4 Automatic SUV
                  '2014 Toyota Prius (on ULP) - Wife's car

                  Previous Vehicles:
                  '90 Mazda Capella. (2000 - 2003) My first Fatmobile. Converted to fun on veggie oil with a 2 tank setup.
                  '80 Mercedes 300D. 2 tank conversion [Sold]
                  '84 Mercedes 300D. 1 tank, no conversion. Replaced engine with rebuilt OM617A turbodiesel engine. Finally had good power. Engine donor for W123 coupe. (body parted out and carcass sold for scrap.)
                  '85 Mercedes Benz W123 300CD Turbodiesel
                  '99 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my darling Wife's car)[sold]
                  '98 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my car)[sold]
                  '06 Musso Sports Crew Cab well body. [Head gasket blew!]
                  '04 Rexton SUV 2.9L Turbodiesel same as Musso - Our Family car.
                  '06 Musso sports Crew Cab Trayback - My hack (no air cond, no heater).

                  Searching the Biofuels Forum using Google
                  Adding images and/or documents to your posts

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: bio diesel wash

                    I was reading this thread, someone said cardboard put into concentrated sulfuric acid turns black. That's not the same reaction as biodiesel reacting with concentrated sulfuric acid. The long carbon chain fatty acids have an even number of carbons connected to each other in a long chain from 12 to 22 carbon atoms long to make the tail of the long fatty acid carbon/hydrogen chain, the head of the fatty acid is the same as the 1st carbon atom in vinegar, acetic acid. The difference in cardboard turning black and biodiesel darkening, is the sulfuric acid reacts with carbons in the fatty acid chain , but in the reaction with cellulose most of the reaction is probably with alcohol groups, oxygen bonded to hydrogen with the oxygen bonded (attached) to a carbon atom in a large carbon atom molecular structure (a polymer). Cardboard has a lot of cellulose in it which is a large , long molecule with carbon hydrogen and oxygen in it (a polymer). The cellulose has hydroxide, Oxygen bonded to hydrogen, an alcohol group where the oxygen is attached bonded to a carbon skeleton and the hydrogen is bonded attached to the oxygen atom. You might do a internet search for cellulose to see its molecular structure. An acid (sulfuric) reacts with an alcohol (cellulose) to produce an ester of sulfuric acid bonded to attached to one of the carbons in the carbon skeleton plus one water molecule. The cellulose with sulfuric acid bonded to it is black due to the presence of sulfur in the molecule (as best I know). Understanding why it's black is 4th year University chemistry, quantum mechanics, which I did not take that class.
                    WesleyB
                    Donating Member
                    Last edited by WesleyB; 7 March 2017, 07:35 AM.

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                    • #25
                      Re: bio diesel wash

                      Hi Wesley,

                      Originally posted by WesleyB View Post
                      I was reading this thread, someone said cardboard put into concentrated sulfuric acid turns black. That's not the same reaction as biodiesel reacting with concentrated sulfuric acid. The long carbon chain fatty acids have an even number of carbons connected to each other in a long chain from 12 to 22 carbon atoms long to make the tail of the long fatty acid carbon/hydrogen chain, the head of the fatty acid is the same as the 1st carbon atom in vinegar, acetic acid. The difference in cardboard turning black and biodiesel darkening, is the sulfuric acid reacts with carbons in the fatty acid chain , but in the reaction with cellulose most of the reaction is probably with alcohol groups, oxygen bonded to hydrogen with the oxygen bonded (attached) to a carbon atom in a large carbon atom molecular structure (a polymer). Cardboard has a lot of cellulose in it which is a large , long molecule with carbon hydrogen and oxygen in it (a polymer). The cellulose has hydroxide, Oxygen bonded to hydrogen, an alcohol group where the oxygen is attached bonded to a carbon skeleton and the hydrogen is bonded attached to the oxygen atom. You might do a internet search for cellulose to see its molecular structure. An acid (sulfuric) reacts with an alcohol (cellulose) to produce an ester of sulfuric acid bonded to attached to one of the carbons in the carbon skeleton plus one water molecule. The cellulose with sulfuric acid bonded to it is black due to the presence of sulfur in the molecule (as best I know). Understanding why it's black is 4th year University chemistry, quantum mechanics, which I did not take that class.
                      I didn't understand what you posted. Because of the lack of paragraphs I found it extremely hard to read

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                      • #26
                        Re: bio diesel wash

                        Sulfuric acid used to make biodiesel reacts with carbon causing the brown darkened color. Sulfuric acid on cardboard reacts with an alcohol group connected to a carbon back bone. It's a different type of organic reaction.

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                        • #27
                          Re: bio diesel wash

                          Hi WesleyB,

                          Originally posted by WesleyB View Post
                          Sulfuric acid used to make biodiesel reacts with carbon causing the brown darkened color. Sulfuric acid on cardboard reacts with an alcohol group connected to a carbon back bone. It's a different type of organic reaction.
                          I understand that.
                          Thank you for clearing it up.

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                          • #28
                            Re: bio diesel wash

                            biopowered (UK) is up and running again, so as promised here is the thread about acid washing making the bio darker. The photo's are on post No 8.

                            If any of the admins on here think it is more appropriate to have this subject within its own thread please feel free to move it.

                            Dave.

                            http://www.biopowered.co.uk/forum/in...pic,2906.0.htm

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