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The Imsides method

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  • #76
    Re: The Imsides method

    Tilly ; Calcium hydride is not the same thing as calcium oxide or calcium hydroxide or calcium dihydroxide. Calcium hydride is one calcium atom bonded to two hydrogen atoms. The formula would be Calcium (1) Hydrogen (2) or CaH2. I expect it is made by heating pure calcium metal with hydrogen gas molecules under high pressure. A more common example of a hydride is Lithium Aluminum Hydride. It is used to hydrogenate (add hydrogen to) some organic molecules . I think the formula is LiAlH4, Lithium (1 atom) Aluminum (1 atom) Hydrogen (4 atoms) That's one atom of lithium , one atom aluminum and four atoms of hydrogen all bonded together in one molecule.
    WesleyB
    Donating Member
    Last edited by WesleyB; 7 November 2017, 12:30 AM.

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    • #77
      Re: The Imsides method

      Originally posted by tillyfromparadse[SIZE=3
      So apparently calcium hydride does dry methanol[/SIZE]
      Indeed it does Tilly, which is why the Sandy Brae works to quantify the amount of water in methanol.

      Calcium Oxide also reduces the water in methoxide, I did a few water tests before and after adding CaO to prove this some years ago.
      smithy
      Senior Member
      Last edited by smithy; 7 November 2017, 05:47 AM. Reason: spelling mistakes (naughty boy!)

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      • #78
        Re: The Imsides method

        Hi smithy,

        Originally posted by smithy View Post
        Indeed it does Tilly, which is why the Sandy Brae works to quantify the amount of water in methanol.
        Calcium Oxide also reduces the water in methoxide, I did a few water tests before and after adding CaO to prove this some years ago.

        The Sandy Brae test kit does not claim to be able to detect water in methanol and Calcium oxide is not part of the Sandy Brae test kit.
        The Sandy Brae test kit detects water in oil using calcium hydride


        tillyfromparadise
        Senior Member
        Last edited by tillyfromparadise; 7 November 2017, 04:33 PM.

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        • #79
          Re: The Imsides method

          That isn't what i said, Tilly. I was agreeing with you that calcium hydride can dry methanol, the very reason it works in the Sandy Brae, producing Hydrogen. I didn't mention anything about Calciom Oxide in the S/B.

          Just because Graydon doesn't mention anything in the S/B instructions about methanol doesn't mean it won't work. It does work accurately to evaluate the water content of methanol. I have had conversations with Graydon who agrees with me.

          It is the Carbide Manometer (updated by your mate IMB) that is incapable of measuring water in methanol.

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          • #80
            Re: The Imsides method

            Hi smithy,

            Originally posted by smithy View Post
            That isn't what i said, Tilly. I was agreeing with you that calcium hydride can dry methanol, the very reason it works in the Sandy Brae, producing Hydrogen. I didn't mention anything about Calciom Oxide in the S/B.
            You are correct, I see my mistake.



            Just because Graydon doesn't mention anything in the S/B instructions about methanol doesn't mean it won't work. It does work accurately to evaluate the water content of methanol. I have had conversations with Graydon who agrees with me.
            You seem confused. I do not think of Graydon as an authority on anything and have no idea what he might or might not claim for the Sandy Brae test kit.
            I went to the Sandy Brae site to see what they claim for their test kit and methanol was not mentioned.




            It is the Carbide Manometer (updated by your mate IMB) that is incapable of measuring water in methanol.
            I remember him! he is the fellow I helped sort out one of the design problems with his reactor.

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            • #81
              Re: The Imsides method

              I'm sure IMB was pleased with your advice.

              BTW well done with the tests. When you threw down the gauntlet to Dr Mark it was a mistake for him to claim that you would get separation on the 15gm/15titration process. Lets face it, no way on Gods earth would that ratio of chemicals have worked. Even with dry methoxide the neutralisation would produce something in the region of 0.5% water.

              However, using his drying method in conjunction with glycerol pre treated oil which shows no titration and a water level of around 350ppm gives a greater yield, plus one other advantage which is the process gives rise to liquid glycerol (good for pre treating) whereas using the liquid catalyst ASM gives rise to glycerol that sets like a brick.

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              • #82
                Re: The Imsides method

                Hi smithy,

                Originally posted by smithy View Post
                BTW well done with the tests.
                Thank you.



                ...in conjunction with glycerol pre treated oil which shows no titration
                Just so people understand what you mean by "glycerol pre treated oil".

                Smithy performs a first stage reaction which he seem to not want people to know is a first stage reaction so he calls it a

                glycerol pre treatment instead of the first stage reaction which is what it really is
                This first stage reaction is performed by adding byproduct containing an unmentioned amount of methanol/ KOH to the WVO and mixing.
                This first stage reaction neutralizes all the FFA's as well as performing some of the transesterfication of the WVO.
                As an added bonus. some of the biodiesel bound up in the byproduct that is added to perform this first stage reaction is released into this partially reacted first stage oil.
                Then the first stage has separation of byproduct which settles to the bottom and is removed.

                Then a second stage reaction is performed which he calls the first stage.
                All very confusing

                I await some meaningful comparison testing that demonstrated what difference, if any, this procedure actually has over the standard procedure.
                tillyfromparadise
                Senior Member
                Last edited by tillyfromparadise; 8 November 2017, 08:53 AM.

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                • #83
                  Re: The Imsides method

                  All the World is a stage, Tilly-----I'll leave the comparative testing to your goodself!

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                  • #84
                    Re: The Imsides method

                    TITRATION 8 KOH WVO- WE HAVE SEPARATION!

                    Finally, this "foolproof" method has produced biodiesel. It took a while


                    CONCLUSSION


                    My testing here was to detect the high grade "golly Gosh" magic that had to be present to make this procedure "foolproof".
                    The kind of magic where metoxide containing 15g KOH will not only neutralize all the FFA's in a litre of WVO titrating 18KOH, but also produce biodiesel.
                    Not surprisingly, this type of magic was not detected. In fact I can not detect anything different from the normal single stage procedure.

                    Very low grade magic might be able to be detected with further careful experimentation but for the time being I will leave that experimentation in the hands of other folks who seem very keen on having people believe this procedure is a major step forward in biodiesel home production.

                    For now, I do not see the added time and expense required to perform this procedure value for money
                    tillyfromparadise
                    Senior Member
                    Last edited by tillyfromparadise; 8 November 2017, 01:43 PM.

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                    • #85
                      Re: The Imsides method

                      Cmon Tilly, don’t be so cynical. This is a MAJOR step forward.

                      This is means I can change my base rate from 8grams per litre to 7 grams per litre. That’s around a 12% saving in potassium costs.....

                      thanks for the hard work, I can’t wait to reap the benefits!

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                      • #86
                        Re: The Imsides method

                        This method seems to me to have a low temperature advantage. I recognize it probably increases methoxide concentration, but with a disadvantage of calcium soaps (probably) being formed that would not have been. I got a lot of glycerine fallout at about 25 degrees centigrade over a short time. I do not know how to effectively remove calcium soaps. I left the drying agent calcium oxide in my no ffa vegetable oil during transesterification with methoxide/methanol solution at room temperature. Tilly has found a problem with not titrating the vegetable oil.

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                        • #87
                          Re: The Imsides method

                          The organic chemistry class I was in made a methoxide/alcohol type solution in 1985 or so. It involved putting dry/anhydrous alcohol into a flask then adding sodium metal. The metal floated in the alcohol bubbling (like boiling around it) until it had all reacted and dissolved. That made methoxide solution or a similar chemical without water in it. Buying anhydrous methoxide alcohol solution may be expensive. I don't know where to buy it here. Calcium oxide plus potassium hydroxide plus anhydrous methanol might be a less expensive alternative to buying methoxide solution. There were some people on biodiesel UK who could get methoxide solution for their transesterification reaction. Maybe letting the calcium oxide fines settle would produce an equivalently dry/anhydrous methoxide solution for less expensive use in making biodiesel.

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                          • #88
                            Re: The Imsides method

                            Hi Wesley,

                            Originally posted by WesleyB View Post
                            This method seems to me to have a low temperature advantage.
                            This procedure does not seem to have a low temperature advantage

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                            • #89
                              Re: The Imsides method

                              Can anyone please list the advantage (s) and disadvantage(s) of this method?
                              Life is a journey, with problems to solve, lessons to learn, but most of all, experiences to enjoy.

                              Current Vehicles in stable:
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                              '04 Rexton 4X4 Automatic SUV
                              '2014 Toyota Prius (on ULP) - Wife's car

                              Previous Vehicles:
                              '90 Mazda Capella. (2000 - 2003) My first Fatmobile. Converted to fun on veggie oil with a 2 tank setup.
                              '80 Mercedes 300D. 2 tank conversion [Sold]
                              '84 Mercedes 300D. 1 tank, no conversion. Replaced engine with rebuilt OM617A turbodiesel engine. Finally had good power. Engine donor for W123 coupe. (body parted out and carcass sold for scrap.)
                              '85 Mercedes Benz W123 300CD Turbodiesel
                              '99 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my darling Wife's car)[sold]
                              '98 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my car)[sold]
                              '06 Musso Sports Crew Cab well body. [Head gasket blew!]
                              '04 Rexton SUV 2.9L Turbodiesel same as Musso - Our Family car.
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                              Adding images and/or documents to your posts

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                              • #90
                                Re: The Imsides method

                                Calcium oxide adsorbs , reacts with water, removing water from solution to a great extent in alcohol. Making methoxide solution from potassium or sodium hydroxide produces water and methoxide in alcohol solution. There's a chemical principle process called equilibrium, where raw materials react to produce products. In the case of making methoxide solution from potassium hydroxide or sodium hydroxide and methanol, methoxide and water are products of the reaction. Water decomposes methoxide. At a maximum concentration of methoxide and percentage of water present the reverse reaction (decomposition of methoxide by water) equals the forwards reaction (to the right side of the equation) of potassium or sodium hydroxide making methoxide. So by removing water , the reverse reation of decomposing methoxide is diminished, which increases the concentration of methoxide some. That's important in speeding up the transesterification (biodiesel making) reaction. In theory the reaction should be faster. That would be an advantage.

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