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  • Drying WVO

    I have a question about drying WVO and titration levels. Is it possible to change the titration valve of the oil through the drying process. I have built a drying tower for my set up. It's a 150L water water tank. I stripped all the insulation off the tank down to the bare metal. I have a drum heater wrapped around the tank and a pump set up to cycle and spray the oil in the tank. I have a vacuum system set up to draw fresh air through the tank. I recently added some oil to the tower to dry. I tested the first oil the first time and it was at 1.5. I started the drying process, unfortunately, I started and stop the process several times. So a month later after many start/stops, I was final ready to transfer the oil to the processing tower. I tested the oil and it titrated at 18. So, is it possible to raise the titration level of the oil through excessive drying/heating? How long could one expect to dry oil? Is the drying process usual a day or two, or a week or more? I redid my neutral solution to rule that out and it still titrated at the same level.

  • #2
    Re: Drying WVO

    Yes, heating the oil and exposure to oxygen will promote polymerisation and other degradation of the oil.
    Is your oil wet due to washing it, or just comes like that?
    Washing the oil may be beneficial. I wash my biodiesel, to remove residual byproduct.
    To dry my biodiesel after washing, I put it in half full buckets or cubes and put them in the sun with an insect screen over them. After 4 hours on a sunny day, any remaining water has dropped out and the biodiesel is "sparkling clear". I pour the biodiesel into storage containers and leave the bottom 5% of each container. I consolidate the remnants and sit in the sun again. Another 4 hours and the sparkling clear biodiesel can be drawn of. A small amount of water remains in the container and it is put on weeds, giving them a minuscule amount of oil on the leaves of the weeds. They die off soon after.
    Life is a journey, with problems to solve, lessons to learn, but most of all, experiences to enjoy.

    Current Vehicles in stable:
    '06 Musso Sports 4X4 Manual Crew Cab tray back.
    '04 Rexton 4X4 Automatic SUV
    '2014 Toyota Prius (on ULP) - Wife's car

    Previous Vehicles:
    '90 Mazda Capella. (2000 - 2003) My first Fatmobile. Converted to fun on veggie oil with a 2 tank setup.
    '80 Mercedes 300D. 2 tank conversion [Sold]
    '84 Mercedes 300D. 1 tank, no conversion. Replaced engine with rebuilt OM617A turbodiesel engine. Finally had good power. Engine donor for W123 coupe. (body parted out and carcass sold for scrap.)
    '85 Mercedes Benz W123 300CD Turbodiesel
    '99 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my darling Wife's car)[sold]
    '98 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my car)[sold]
    '06 Musso Sports Crew Cab well body. [Head gasket blew!]
    '04 Rexton SUV 2.9L Turbodiesel same as Musso - Our Family car.
    '06 Musso sports Crew Cab Trayback - My hack (no air cond, no heater).

    Searching the Biofuels Forum using Google
    Adding images and/or documents to your posts

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    • #3
      Re: Drying WVO

      No, the oil is not wet due to washing. I'm trying to dry the WVO prior to processing it. I have read on many threads that water in the WVO is a problem and the drier the WVO, the easier the reaction stage will go. So I built the drying tower with the intentions of drying out any water that many be in the WVO. I plan on water washing the bio after, put I wasn't going to use my drying tower. I was just going to do a bubble dry method. To be honest, I haven't got to that part of the process yet with a big batch. So should I not be so concerned with water in my WVO? Would heating the oil in the tower, without pumping it around, but still drawing the air through the tank work better?

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Drying WVO

        Why do you believe that there is water in your oil?
        Is it stored outside - if yes, then definitely test for water and dry it if necessary.
        How to test for water? Check out the "Hot Pan Test"

        I don't dry my oil as it comes from the fryer and is transferred to my oil drums which are stored inside the shop. The only time water might get into my oil is when I transport it, but the drum bungs are tight and the seals are good. I store it inside my workshop until I process it.
        Life is a journey, with problems to solve, lessons to learn, but most of all, experiences to enjoy.

        Current Vehicles in stable:
        '06 Musso Sports 4X4 Manual Crew Cab tray back.
        '04 Rexton 4X4 Automatic SUV
        '2014 Toyota Prius (on ULP) - Wife's car

        Previous Vehicles:
        '90 Mazda Capella. (2000 - 2003) My first Fatmobile. Converted to fun on veggie oil with a 2 tank setup.
        '80 Mercedes 300D. 2 tank conversion [Sold]
        '84 Mercedes 300D. 1 tank, no conversion. Replaced engine with rebuilt OM617A turbodiesel engine. Finally had good power. Engine donor for W123 coupe. (body parted out and carcass sold for scrap.)
        '85 Mercedes Benz W123 300CD Turbodiesel
        '99 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my darling Wife's car)[sold]
        '98 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my car)[sold]
        '06 Musso Sports Crew Cab well body. [Head gasket blew!]
        '04 Rexton SUV 2.9L Turbodiesel same as Musso - Our Family car.
        '06 Musso sports Crew Cab Trayback - My hack (no air cond, no heater).

        Searching the Biofuels Forum using Google
        Adding images and/or documents to your posts

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Drying WVO

          I just assumed that all oil has some water in it. I did do the hot pan test and I saw bubbles. But I don't know how many bubble there should be before I become concerned. So I went with the theory that if there is any, then there is too many. But I don't know if that's really the case. I figured it be one of those things that I would learn in time. My oil is outside in containers but they are under cover.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Drying WVO

            If you only had a few bubbles, I wouldn't bother drying the oil. A little moisture in the oil should not affect the reaction much, if at all.
            If you had a lot of bubbles then I would look at drying the oil.
            Do a test batch of say 10 litres in a 20L cubie after titrating the oil.
            See how the reaction goes.
            Life is a journey, with problems to solve, lessons to learn, but most of all, experiences to enjoy.

            Current Vehicles in stable:
            '06 Musso Sports 4X4 Manual Crew Cab tray back.
            '04 Rexton 4X4 Automatic SUV
            '2014 Toyota Prius (on ULP) - Wife's car

            Previous Vehicles:
            '90 Mazda Capella. (2000 - 2003) My first Fatmobile. Converted to fun on veggie oil with a 2 tank setup.
            '80 Mercedes 300D. 2 tank conversion [Sold]
            '84 Mercedes 300D. 1 tank, no conversion. Replaced engine with rebuilt OM617A turbodiesel engine. Finally had good power. Engine donor for W123 coupe. (body parted out and carcass sold for scrap.)
            '85 Mercedes Benz W123 300CD Turbodiesel
            '99 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my darling Wife's car)[sold]
            '98 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my car)[sold]
            '06 Musso Sports Crew Cab well body. [Head gasket blew!]
            '04 Rexton SUV 2.9L Turbodiesel same as Musso - Our Family car.
            '06 Musso sports Crew Cab Trayback - My hack (no air cond, no heater).

            Searching the Biofuels Forum using Google
            Adding images and/or documents to your posts

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Drying WVO

              A formula for soap making is triglycerides with fatty acids bonded to glycerine plus caustic with water present plus enough heat. In the absence of water the reaction to form soap is slower. Drier oil is better to lessen the quantity of soap formed. But a consideration of cost and energy effectiveness needs to be made. How much does it cost to perfectly dry the oil? Look at descriptions of Flash Evaporators for best cost effectiveness in drying vegetable oil. Under adequate vacuum the boiling point of water goes down. A flash evaporator sprays warmed or hot oil into a container with a vacuum inside it. Since the temperature the oil needs to be at to do the proceedure is lower less free fatty acids are produced upon drying, and it's a lot faster. So the titration will not go up as much if the oil is dried at a lower temperature. A small vent slowly letting air into the vacuum chamber allows the water vapor produced to be carried out of the chamber towards the vacuum source. It's like a vacuum still but with modifications. A cold condenser between the vacuum pump and the vacuum container will keep most of the water from going through your vacuum pump. This type of system is surely a more cost effective and energy effective way of drying your oil. A flash evaporator is expensive to purchase unless you make it yourself. A problem if you make one yourself is the walls of the container need to be thick so atmospheric pressure will not crush the vaccum container. The best shape for the container is spherical. or a long round tube. I'm not sure how to optimize the shape of the ends of a round tube shaped flash evaporator.
              WesleyB
              Donating Member
              Last edited by WesleyB; 1 December 2016, 05:43 AM. Reason: used wrong word in a sentence

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Drying WVO

                hello horseflybiodiesel,

                If you are worried about water in your oil before processing why not conduct a glycerol pre treatment. This will reduce the ffa content (reduce the titration) and lower the water content. As long as your oil is not really wet a pre treatment will always leave the oil at less than 500ppm water.

                Another consideration is that mixing your methoxide produces water anyway. 1KG KOH in 20 litres of methanol produces 320gms of water (1.6%) plus any water in the methanol. With so much water being produced with methoxide production it can be counter productive to use lots of energy into drying your oil.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Drying WVO

                  Hi Horse fly,

                  since we all throw in ideas here :-) I have changed to do the acid base method, and you can convert really crappy oil to good bio that way. Only downside is your messing around with sulfuric acid so be extremely careful!

                  I do 1000ltr batches, so I mix 40ltr of methanol with about 1ltr of acid, be aware methanol will boil if the acid is introduced to fast. once the acid is mixed in the methanol, all goes in the pre heated oil as per normal, let is stir for about 24 hrs and then let it settle. All water will drop to the bottom, so you can drain it easier, the acid converts the FFA's as well, so your titration goes down as well. Same as smithy has mentioned. If you are not confident with this, Smithy's idea is good too, I have used it before to treat crappy oil. Only thing I found was the issue to sepperate the glycerine from the oil.

                  Bottom line, unless your oil is really shitty, its been out in the rain in a open container or you are using it straight in your vehicle, don't worry about a few bubbles.
                  1990 Toyota Hilux LN106 with ATG 2 tank system (sold after running 150.000 ks on mainly WVO)

                  1993 Toyota 75 Series with 1 HDT conversion, 75l factory tank and a custom 170l under tray tank. (Retired with 680.000ks on the clock mostly running on BIO and on WVO)

                  2006 Landcruiser Troopcarrier 1HZ with DTS Turbo Kit, 170ltr long range tank currently not converted, running on B100

                  "him who never made a mistake, made no discovery either"

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Drying WVO

                    "1 KG KOH in 20 litres of methanol produces 320 gms of water (1.6%) plus any water in the methanol." Not exactly. Most KOH is not 100% pure. My KOH is 85% pure. But if your KOH is 90% pure then 1 kilogram equals 900 grams of KOH, which is about 16 moles, not the higher amount assuming 1000 grams of KOH. 900 grams of KOH would produce 288 grams of water if the reaction proceeded 100% with methanol to produce methoxide. But the reaction does not proceed 100% where Hydroxide ion from KOH plucks the hydrogen from the hydroxide on methanol, producing water and methoxide ion. I don't know the percent the reaction forms at equilibrium. I remember reading that a person said only 5% does the potential reaction proceed to form methoxide. A spectral absorption emission analysis could determine approximate concentrations of competing materials. Water decomposes methoxide. If the methanol or ethanol has too much water in it not enough methoxide or ethoxide will form for biodiesel to form (transesterification). I tried making ethyl biodiesel with 95% ethanol, it didn't work. Making ethyl biodiesel did work using 99.5% ethanol with 0.5% water plus KOH plus corn oil heat and stirring. A dangerous chemical called sodium or potassium methoxide exists which is pure methoxide salt, with no water in it. That's the ultimate in making biodiesel with no water present probably with highest percentage fatty acid esters resulting. Fuel Farmer on info pop biodiesel forum may have used sodium methoxide a few times that was described in poists.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Drying WVO

                      There is a very simple way to make sure there is no water in your oil before processing, get a decent centrifuge. They allow you to remove water and waste, then you can process it.

                      I run mostly on straight vo, but make BD for starting and cleaning stuff so get the best of both worlds. Used to almost boil my oil before getting a fuge so it would process better and it did, but a fuge makes life so much easier and the rubbish and water it removes can then easily be used for processing. If you heat your oil to about 200deg, all the water will be evaporated and if you have a collector above your heater tank, that will collect the water.

                      Now dirty oil is run through the fuge, into the processor, then BD goes back through the fuge, sits for a few days exposed to the sun in either summer or winter, then is ready to be used. The BD I use is normally many months old and very clear, anything in it drops out and it's rare for there to be anything but a thin film on the bottom of the drums, which is added to the process again.

                      My centrifuge cost close to $2000 years ago and is pretty primitive, only able to process about 100lt a day safely and with a few clean outs. Now you can get them from china for around $1500 and they process large amounts, a friend down here has one that is 3 phase 4hp and he can process 1000lt a day without stopping it, as it self cleans and can be found on ebay. That will be my next purchase if I can figure out how to run it without 3 phase properly (off grid), have a motor controller, but not sure if that will cope with 4hp so will have to do some research on that.
                      Alga
                      Senior Member
                      Last edited by Alga; 5 December 2016, 12:01 PM.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Drying WVO

                        Hi WesleyB,

                        Originally posted by WesleyB View Post
                        "1 KG KOH in 20 litres of methanol produces 320 gms of water (1.6%) plus any water in the methanol."
                        Not exactly. Most KOH is not 100% pure.
                        But if your KOH is 90% pure then 1 kilogram equals 900 grams of KOH, which is about 16 moles, not the higher amount assuming 1000 grams of KOH.
                        900 grams of KOH would produce 288 grams of water if the reaction proceeded 100% with methanol to produce methoxide.
                        Do not forget that the "contaminant" in KOH is Water (H2O).
                        So if your KOH is 90% purity, it contains 10% H2O which would be another 100ml of H2O per kg of KOH used in the reaction.
                        So in your above case that would be 288g H2O from the reaction and another 100g of H2O as contamination in the KOH for a total of 388ml H2O per kg of KOH used in the reaction



                        But the reaction does not proceed 100% where Hydroxide ion from KOH plucks the hydrogen from the hydroxide on methanol, producing water and methoxide ion.
                        I don't know the percent the reaction forms at equilibrium. I remember reading that a person said only 5% does the potential reaction proceed to form methoxide.
                        Thank you for explaining this part again, I had forgotten it.
                        So working with the above figures, if only 5% of the KOH is actually converted into Potassium Methoxide that would be 5% of 288g H2O which= 14.4g H2O from the reaction and 100g H2O as the contaminant in the KOH.
                        A total of 114.4g H2O
                        tillyfromparadise
                        Senior Member
                        Last edited by tillyfromparadise; 5 December 2016, 12:41 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Drying WVO

                          Thanks all for your contributions.
                          To summarise:
                          - Heating the oil and exposing it to oxygen will have an impact on its FFA levels (higher temp , more O2 & time all contribute to an increase in FFA).
                          - Acid can be used to dry the oil and if used with part of the methanol for the reaction can reduce the oil FFA. The wet acid needs to be removed before using more Methanol and Caustic to complete the Acid-Base biodiesel process. Please do more research to determine if this is for you. (Added safety issues and costs)
                          - Byproduct from previous biodiesel reactions can be used to remove most of the water from cooking oil.
                          - The Biodiesel process does produce water when KOH or NaOH is mixed with Methanol (or Ethanol)
                          - 90% KOH is 10% water, so there will be water in the biodiesel reaction anyway.

                          - If you have few bubbles in a HPT, then you should be fine making biodiesel with that oil (at least when using Methanol rather than Ethanol).

                          Go for it horseflybiodiesel.
                          Life is a journey, with problems to solve, lessons to learn, but most of all, experiences to enjoy.

                          Current Vehicles in stable:
                          '06 Musso Sports 4X4 Manual Crew Cab tray back.
                          '04 Rexton 4X4 Automatic SUV
                          '2014 Toyota Prius (on ULP) - Wife's car

                          Previous Vehicles:
                          '90 Mazda Capella. (2000 - 2003) My first Fatmobile. Converted to fun on veggie oil with a 2 tank setup.
                          '80 Mercedes 300D. 2 tank conversion [Sold]
                          '84 Mercedes 300D. 1 tank, no conversion. Replaced engine with rebuilt OM617A turbodiesel engine. Finally had good power. Engine donor for W123 coupe. (body parted out and carcass sold for scrap.)
                          '85 Mercedes Benz W123 300CD Turbodiesel
                          '99 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my darling Wife's car)[sold]
                          '98 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my car)[sold]
                          '06 Musso Sports Crew Cab well body. [Head gasket blew!]
                          '04 Rexton SUV 2.9L Turbodiesel same as Musso - Our Family car.
                          '06 Musso sports Crew Cab Trayback - My hack (no air cond, no heater).

                          Searching the Biofuels Forum using Google
                          Adding images and/or documents to your posts

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Drying WVO

                            Originally posted by Alga View Post
                            That will be my next purchase if I can figure out how to run it without 3 phase properly (off grid), have a motor controller, but not sure if that will cope with 4hp so will have to do some research on that.
                            Being 4 HP it's gunna suck a fair emount of electrons on single phase, but ti can be done with the right VSD unit.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Drying WVO

                              Just to clear up one point.

                              Acid Esterification (AE) is only used for high titration oil to reduce the titration of the oil by esterifying FFA's into biodiesel, it is not used to dry oil.
                              In fact, you need to have the oil already dry before performing AE because water is a byproduct of the esterification and if enough water is present it will stop the esterification reaction

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