SOV but is there ANY reason you would not blend 5% ULP

[barton Biofuels Forum Newbie Find all posts View Profile Close barton]

Re: SOV but is there ANY reason you would not blend 5% ULP

Years ago when experimenting, was able to meet and discuss this with engineers from the Antarctic division as they used ULP in the engines and had to change them over ever 2 seasons after running 24/7 for at least 2 years.

I am not clear what you mean here. Do you mean they were using ULP in diesel engines?
If that was the case, what percentage was ULP? What was the fuel it was mixed with, Number 1 or number 2 diesel?

[Alga Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Alga]

Re: SOV but is there ANY reason you would not blend 5% ULP

I am not clear what you mean here. Do you mean they were using ULP in diesel engines?
If that was the case, what percentage was ULP? What was the fuel it was mixed with, Number 1 or number 2 diesel?

Not sure, it was years ago, probably 2, as it's a winter fuel. As stated in my post, they used up to 25% ULP, to stop it gelling. Things have changed a great deal since then and generator rooms and storage tanks etc have stable temperatures, well above freezing point. They did say it was something they really wouldn't recommend for getting a long life out of your engine.

To my mind any more than 10% would be asking for trouble over the long term, then again the experts may disagree. All I go on is personal experience over the last 30 years or so, and learning from others experiences, especially in very low temperature area's, like the snowy mountains. For some reason prefer living in cold climates, so have learnt what works best and gives us the best reliability and life time. Our 2h land cruiser is approaching 600000 klms, more than 300000 on VO and 10% BD or dino in winter. Been meaning to rebuilt it for the last few years, but as it still goes and pulls really well, other than down a bit of power, it will continue until it virtually dies. The di triton ute we had and experimented with ULP, had an engine rebuild and nothing but problems, costing us a fortune. So got rid of all our di engines and went back to in line IP's, A mate is currently fitting a 12ht engine into a 91 cruiser, once it set up properly, will probably do the same. Series 80's are cheap and their engine seem to pack up quickly to earlier engines, then you have all the computing and special servicing which costs the earth. I can get one with a blown engine for less than $3000. My only concern, is whether the 12ht can handle the constant 4x4, just have to wait and see.

[barton Biofuels Forum Newbie Find all posts View Profile Close barton]

Re: SOV but is there ANY reason you would not blend 5% ULP

Not sure, it was years ago, probably 2, as it's a winter fuel.

If it was winter diesel it would have been number 1 diesel which is kerosene

As stated in my post, they used up to 25% ULP, to stop it gelling.

Not wanting to be considered pedantic, but in your OP you said it was you who had used up to 25% ULP. You did not specify what the percentage was in the ant arctic, that is why I asked.

The UlP scoured fuel system, diluted any form of lubrication in the diesel and when sulphur was removed, they had to replace some IP's, injectors, piston rings and fuel pumps within 6 months.

If you are adding 25% ULP to kersoene you can expect to have trouble. Back then there was no lubricity requirement in the Diesel Fuel specification
Then, if you add to that the problems which resulted with the change over to low sulfur kerosene.

But we are not mixing ULP with kerosene, so that is not a valid comparrison

[Alga Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Alga]

Re: SOV but is there ANY reason you would not blend 5% ULP

If it was winter diesel it would have been number 1 diesel which is kerosene

Not wanting to be considered pedantic, but in your OP you said it was you who had used up to 25% ULP. You did not specify what the percentage was in the ant arctic, that is why I asked.


If you are adding 25% ULP to kersoene you can expect to have trouble. Back then there was no lubricity requirement in the Diesel Fuel specification
Then, if you add to that the problems which resulted with the change over to low sulfur kerosene.

But we are not mixing ULP with kerosene, so that is not a valid comparrison

Read my post and understand what was said, this is what I posted. “however you can put 25% in without instant problems”. No where does it say I claimed to have used 25%, 15% may have been the most as knocking and hunting became very evident. It was the antarctic blokes who stated 25% could be used, which was verified with research. They never said how much they used, as I didn't ask.

The validity of my comments are in using ULP instead of diesel in VO, when there is no difference in performance and you can add any amount of diesel to your fuel, if needed. Diesel BD VO, all compatible fuels. ULP is not compatible with any of them in regard to how they are used, type of engine and firing mechanism. Diesel, BD. VO all have similar flash points, ULP is vey different. It was used as a thinner when needed and that's why people have this idea it's cool, to run ULP through your diesel engine. In my opinion, it's not logical or rational, even though the science may claim otherwise. To my mind, it's adding an abrasive to your fuel system, which may be fine once or twice. But we are talking about adding it to VO constantly, if you think that's fine, go for it. What I write is only my opinion, many others have different ones, I respect that and learn from them. It develops an overall understanding, so you can then implement the best approach which suits your circumstances.

I prefer simple, logical and easily workable approaches, cheap, easily fixed and won't cause to many problems. This allows us to only buy start fuel when travelling and we run out of BD, or winter in Tas or the snowies, where we sometimes have to thin both the VO and BD because of temperatures. Dino does that excellently and to any percentage you need, without a problem. As we carry 120lt of start fuel, it's rare we buy dino. Others prefer different ways which suit them and their situation. If you prefer blending ULP with VO rather than dino, go for it, experience is the best way to learn.

[barton Biofuels Forum Newbie Find all posts View Profile Close barton]

Re: SOV but is there ANY reason you would not blend 5% ULP

Read my post and understand what was said, this is what I posted. “however you can put 25% in without instant problems”. No where does it say I claimed to have used 25%,...

In your first paragraph you said "Over the years have experimented with ULP, BD and diesel blends of up to 25% during winter, to see the results in actual practice."
I took that to mean that you had mixed up to 25% ULP, BD and diesel into your VO. Apparently you meant something else.

[Alga Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Alga]

Re: SOV but is there ANY reason you would not blend 5% ULP

I'm not exactly sure where you are coming from Alga.
I'm a proponent of blending ULP, I was promoting it when a lot of the people now singing it's praises were crapping on about cetane ratings and saying they would never put it in their car etc. I sure laugh when I see the turnaround many have made.

Despite that, I'd say that putting 25% ULP in diesel was asking for trouble as well. It's no secret the lube value of diesel is marginal so to reduce it further would have to be detrimental. If I was using ANY ULP in diesel. I'd be putting in a good helping of SVO ( new or used) or 2 stroke ( and a lot more than the touted 200:1). You can't have too much lubricity but adding 25% ULP to dino would be one sure fire way I'd say to achive under lubing.

As for your other statements, they don't all hold true for me.




I don't believe WVO or bio is compatible with a lot of fuel pumps, injection systems and other components either and can and sometimes does cause damage and problems. I'm sure you are well aware of the In joke with veg fuelers that Diesel mechanics have only been around since the inception of veg fuels because according to these mechanics, no IP ever had a problem before veg came along.

While I don't believe ULP is compatible with Diesels on it's own, when mixed with veg in a blend, the properties that make it incompatible as a pure product compensate for some of the shortcomings of WVO as a fuel for diesel engines very nicely.
ULP is compatible with veg as a blend. WMO isn't, it will separate and doesn't add anything of value to the WVO as far as thinning, bringing timing back to Dino spec or anything else. If you were arguing WMO as being incompatible, I'd agree. ULP, no.
ULP has numerous benefits when used with VEG rather than DIESEL.




I'm not sure flashpoint is very significant in a compression ignition engine. It was my understanding that autoignition temp is the key factor and to that end I believe the difference between Dino and BD is around 200 O c LOWER than Veg oil or around double. To me, that's very dissimilar.

Could you show some evidence to support the flashpoints of Dino, BD and VO all being similar? The info I posted earlier and other I have seen puts them around 200 Oc apart or veg being around double the flashpoint of dino. That's not what I call similar at all. ULP is less than Dino or bd and what makes it a good blending agent for veg.



Not sure if you mean Cool as in trendy or cool as in OK?
The former has never entered my mind, the latter I certainly agree with.
It' seems to me your main problem is it's abrasive. I would guarantee and bet my house that a Blend of even 50% ULP and VO is going to kick the backside of regular diesel right off the lubricity charts. That being the case, I'm not understanding your problem.




With respect, I'll take science over your or anyone elses "opinion" any day.
That's kinda the point of science, to show what the real truth is and take out "beliefs" and opinion and politics and agendas and all that man made variable stuff.
As for logic and rational. I believe I showed in my previous post exactly why it is logical and rational. If you write facts off as technical jargon, then the conversation is really rather pointless as you have made your mind up and are going to argue with anything that doesn't agree.



Well I think that about sums it up. My experience and the facts support ULP blending.

Petrol is not an abrasive at all. It just has low lube value. It it were abrasive, common sense and logic would tell you all the cars that have been made in the last 20 years that have Fuel injection systems would be going through the high pressure pumps and injectors like steam if petrol was in fact abrasive. Critically speaking, the Kerosene that is a large component in Diesel is an abrasive and is/was used in engineering circles specifically for that quality. From what I have seen, you would have to add at least 95% ULP to wvo in order to get the lubricity level down as low as that of regular Dino.

About 5 weeks ago I set up a small Diesel engine which was driving a 3 phase induction motor set up as a generator.
I was monitoring frequency of the output and the wattage the motor was producing down to the 10/th of a watt. It occurred to me by locking the fuel rack, I could get a very accurate reading of what the engine was doing. To summarize what I did, I found 5% ULP in WVO gave a power increase. Dino & Bio either reduced the output or did nothing at up to 10%. 5% ulp /WVO had a slightly better power output than the Bio I had.
10% ULP in WVO gave a reduced power output compared to both 5% and SVO.

The hand crank engine used in the test was tried to be started from 24HR shut down several times and suffice to say I gave up before the thing fired. With 5% ULP, the thing would start first crank every time. I went back to svo and again couldn't get it to go but with a small amount of ULP down the intake or poured on the air filter element, starting was again always first wind up every time.




To me, and obviously other people's opinions differ, It's pretty easy to fill a 1.25L drink bottle with petrol and pour it into a 25L drum and give it a shake by twisting motion of my wrist before pouring it in the tank. I'f I filling the tank, I have a 5L oil bottle I use for the fuel. I pour 50L of oil in, then the petrol, then top the tank off with WVO. That is simple, logical and workable enough for me and has NEVER caused a problem.



I don't carry any ULP initially, all WVO. I start off with a tank of blended fuel and I have about an 850KM range with that. When I get to where I need to fill, I usually stop at a servo, Pour a drum of WVO in the tank, take the empty drum and get 15L of ULP. I put 5 in the tank and then top off with oil. I have enough for another couple of refills and by the time that is done, I'm back home. My furthest travel is Sydney to brisbane, some running round and a couple of inland tours and that's it.

Any further and I'm collecting on the road and it's obviously no problem to buy more petrol if I need it. Last trip I ran short on oil and had to buy some Dino but a fellow forumite helped me out with some more WVO which was enough to get me back to a relatives place where I keep enough oil from a local supplier there to get me back home.

One big reason I go for ULP over dino is that you can only ever make thick Diesel with Dino, because it's the base viscosity to start with. With ULP being so much thinner, you have a head start so to speak. 10% ULP makes a huge difference to the viscosity of WVO and if it's cold enough to need that much ULP, it's more than cold enough to run it.

I'm not coming from anywhere other than my experience and many others since 1977, when I first started using VO. Since have tried just about every suggestion others made until early this century, when decided on the simplest, cheapest most reliable system which suited the need of our many different engines.

You can be as enthusiastic as you like, the facts are you spend lots of money on ULP, rely upon petrol stations and have to buy and blend always, along with filtering your oil. We just put our oil in a centrifuge at home or on the road, then into the tank and that's it. I couldn't care less whether they hold true for you or anyone else, All I'm doing is putting forward my opinion and experience of more than 30 years.

The most important thing you need to understand is, diesels were designed to run on peanut and seed oils originally, It was only when diesel became available and cheap, things changed. Modern diesel with rotary pumps are a bit different and problematic, that's why we got rid of them and now all our engines are in line IP's.

We ran a triton on ULP blend, lasted 4 years after a rebuild. Others I have met and known over the years who use ULP blends have ended up having major repairs done. We have one vehicle which has done more than 300000 klms on pure veggie oil, one coming up to 150000 and our bus, was switched over to veggie with the engine having done 650000 klms. I personally know of no one who has been able to use a ULP blended vehicle for more than 3 years, without having heaps of trouble. Especially when the white flakes you find in petrol fuel systems, being to appear and get into IP and injectors after a couple of years.

I'm only posting for those who wish to learn of other experiences, not interested in anything else. Unless you can truthfully tell me you've run your ULP blended vehicle for at least 4 years and over 100000 klms, without a problem, then until you've had the experience and knowledge, what you say means nothing to me.

[howard43 Biofuels Forum Newbie Find all posts View Profile Close howard43]

Re: SOV but is there ANY reason you would not blend 5% ULP

. We just put our oil in a centrifuge at home or on the road, then into the tank and that's it.

This is the type of information I am looking for. Up to now everything looks very complicated. Now I see that all I need to do is run the veg oil through a centrifuge and pour it into the tank. No chemicals or 2 tank system or heating needed.

[Tim-HJ61 Donating Member Find all posts View Profile Close Tim-HJ61]

Re: SOV but is there ANY reason you would not blend 5% ULP

That might be right howard43 - welcome to the forum by the way - but you MUST make sure your vehicle is suited to running a blend. It is not suitable for any diesel, but it is suitable for some diesels.

Check the FAQ at the top of the SVO section of the forum and work it out with the matrix, then post a query to confirm your research to the group.

Tim

[howard43 Biofuels Forum Newbie Find all posts View Profile Close howard43]

Re: SOV but is there ANY reason you would not blend 5% ULP

Thank you for the welcome Tim.
I can not find the FAQ at the top of the SVO section.

Query- Can you show me where the FAQ section at the top of the SVO section is?

[Tim-HJ61 Donating Member Find all posts View Profile Close Tim-HJ61]

Re: SOV but is there ANY reason you would not blend 5% ULP

http://www.biofuelsforum.com/threads...place-to-start

It's the fifth thread in the SVO = i.e. this section - of the forum.
http://www.biofuelsforum.com/forums/5-SVO-Users

There is also a matrix there to help you determine key issues and how suitable your particular vehicle is for a variety of options.

If you want to know more about blending there is a whole subsection of the SVO section dedicated to blending, and this thread really belongs in it.

Tim

[howard43 Biofuels Forum Newbie Find all posts View Profile Close howard43]

Re: SOV but is there ANY reason you would not blend 5% ULP

I was looking all the way at the top of the forum

I have read through the thread and can not find anything about just running the WVO through a centrifuge and pouring it into the fuel tank.
I can not find the matrix.

[Alga Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Alga]

Re: SOV but is there ANY reason you would not blend 5% ULP

This is the type of information I am looking for. Up to now everything looks very complicated. Now I see that all I need to do is run the veg oil through a centrifuge and pour it into the tank. No chemicals or 2 tank system or heating needed.

Howard, my apologies for not explaining a bit more for those not familiar with using VO and probably misleading you.

You do need a 2 tank system (start tank) and heat exchanger when using straight VO, never found a way round that which is reliable and long term. Once you have set up your system, then it's just a matter of putting the oil in the centrifuge and into the tank, as with all things, they only get easy when you've done the required work.

[Tim-HJ61 Donating Member Find all posts View Profile Close Tim-HJ61]

Re: SOV but is there ANY reason you would not blend 5% ULP

I was looking all the way at the top of the forum

I have read through the thread and can not find anything about just running the WVO through a centrifuge and pouring it into the fuel tank.
I can not find the matrix.

Howard43,

My apologies, the matrix is in the sticky on vehicles converted to WVO. A sticky is a thread that has been deemed useful enough for newcomers to give them a guide to what we do, or an introduction to the forum. they are marked as Sticky and are the top 6 or so threads. We put them there to be helpful to newcomers who are looking for stuff.

http://www.biofuelsforum.com/threads...ed-Cooking-Oil is the thread with the matrix in it.

[Tim-HJ61 Donating Member Find all posts View Profile Close Tim-HJ61]

Re: SOV but is there ANY reason you would not blend 5% ULP

Peter1,

I cannot say I have left my two tank alone at all, and I do like the idea of blending being a viable solution. It's never a black and white issue.

Please let us know if your confidence in blending spreads to direct injection and common rail vehicles. And what blends have you found successful with these engines? Given I have run my DI successfully on a two tank system, sometimes containing a blend, I'm keen to know if i can move to the next stage with confidence. I'm keen to know at what blend with what dilutant, the problem of injector blockages can be removed in DI engines.

Tim

[gilfish Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close gilfish]

Re: SOV but is there ANY reason you would not blend 5% ULP

I have worked out what the real trouble with SVO is and it' has nothing to do with heating the oil and all the other claimed poppycock.

Hi peter I am interested in this comment and your belief that complete combustion is dependent on compression ratio being within spec. I was under the impression that it is temperature related so cold motors not producing the required combustion temps to prevent coking and I don't know the combustion temp required.
We are all aware that IDI motors run higher compression ratios than DI and temperature and pressure are dependent on each other, as in higher compression pressure higher temperature reached in the combustion chamber. does this mean IDI engines are less prone to coking than DI? Could you please explain your belief in compression specs and coking kind regards andrew