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The Imsides method

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  • #91
    Re: The Imsides method

    Hi Tony,

    Originally posted by Tony From West Oz View Post
    Can anyone please list the advantage (s) and disadvantage(s) of this method?
    It is unlikely that anyone, including the Author of this procedure, has performed any MEANINGFUL COMPARISON TESTING to see what difference, if any, there is between this procedure and the standard single stage base procedure.

    My testing was just to show that the procedure was not foolproof.
    The claim that the procedure is foolproof has been shown to not be true and the claim that it can be performed at room temperature is meaningless because, as I have also demonstrated, the standard single stage procedure will also make biodiesel at a reduced temperature as long as everything remains liquid.

    University testing I have read shows that using NaOH gives a better yield than using KOH. I am sure this is because of the water bound in the KOH most people use.
    Real life experience on the several forums I am a member of has never shown a noticeable difference in yield when using KOH instead of NaOH so I suspect the difference is small.

    The Advantage that this procedure might have, but no-one has shown to be the case, is that if this procedure really removes the water from the methoxide then it will not only remove the water made producing methoxide but also remove the water that was bound with KOH. This should result in a better yield- as long as the WVO being reacted is low titration.

    At this point, someone needs to do some ACTUAL COMPARISON TESTING to show whether there is an advantage, and not just sitting back in a chair making wild guesses about what might be happening.

    As the Chemist Neutral used to say,
    "While it is good to know what should happen, it is even better to do some experiments and see what really happens"
    tillyfromparadise
    Senior Member
    Last edited by tillyfromparadise; 11 November 2017, 12:11 PM.

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    • #92
      Re: The Imsides method

      I think your conclusions are generally correct Tilly. However I did perform some water tests on KOH methoxide before and after being dried by CaO some time ago. I can't remember offhand which forum I posted the results on. I will try to find them.

      As you mentioned in para 3 of your post NaOH does seem to give a better yield (not only does it contain less water than KOH but as the reqd amount is roughly 1.4 times less then the water produced is 1.4 times less)
      I have used methanol containing approx 1% water for the methoxide and noticed a reduction in yield of only 2% max. However the closer we can get to an anhydrous process the closer we can get to the magic 104% yield. The big question is "is it worth the extra time and effort'?

      Comment


      • #93
        Re: The Imsides method

        Hi smithy,

        Originally posted by smithy View Post
        However the closer we can get to an anhydrous process the closer we can get to the magic 104% yield.
        The 104% yield by volume will only be available with unused oil.
        FFA's are converted into soap not biodiesel when transesterfying WVO

        Comment


        • #94
          Re: The Imsides method

          Indeed, one of the reasons I glycerol pre-treat.

          Comment


          • #95
            Re: The Imsides method

            Hi smithy,

            Originally posted by smithy View Post
            Indeed, one of the reasons I glycerol pre-treat.
            I often wonder whether you really do not understand this.

            You are performing a two stage reaction
            Your "Glycerol pre-treat" is the first stage reaction.
            In this first stage reaction the FFA's are converted into soap and some transesterfication occurs
            The soap and glycerine produced during this first stage reaction then settles out along with the glycerine you added to do the first stage reaction and is removed.

            I understand that you then put the remaining partially reacted biodiesel back into a large container and pretend it is still WVO instead of partially reacted biodiesel.
            You then fill your reactor to the top again with partially reacted biodiesel from this larger container to perform a second stage reaction, but you tell people you are performing a first stage reaction on WVO.
            Of course no further soap is produced in the second stage through nutralization of FFA's because You have already converted the FFA's into soap in the first stage and then removed them with the glycerol.

            There is no magic involved with what you do. Your first stage reaction is producing soap which is removed along with the glycerine and you are losing yield whether you pretend you are or not
            tillyfromparadise
            Senior Member
            Last edited by tillyfromparadise; 12 November 2017, 10:01 AM.

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            • #96
              Re: The Imsides method

              Something you didn't mention Tilly is pretreating vegetable oil with glycerine is ffa's hydrogen bond with glycerine as part of why they go into the glycerine layer and are to an extent removed. It's similar to pretreating with magnesium silicate. The head of the carbon chain is polar (carboxylic acid) the tail is non-polar. The head of the free fatty acid chain hydrogen bonds to the glycerine molecule in the lower layer and to an extent can be removed. Not all the free fatty acids are necessarily becoming soap. It's also a pretreat.
              WesleyB
              Donating Member
              Last edited by WesleyB; 13 November 2017, 02:19 AM.

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              • #97
                Re: The Imsides method

                Hi wesley,

                Originally posted by WesleyB View Post
                pretreating vegetable oil with glycerine is ffa's hydrogengen bond
                The pretreatment included more than just glycerine. There is also methoxide in the mix.
                What he is calling a pretreatment is a base transesterification reaction




                Not all the free fatty acids are necessarily becoming soap.
                Just so I understand what you are saying.
                Do you mean that in a base transesterification reaction not all the FFA's are converted into soap?
                Some of them are bound in the glycerine instead of being converted into soap?
                That is the first time I have heard that claimed.
                Why doesn't the methoxide in the glycerine convert the FFA's in the glycerine into soap?

                Not to be rude, but lately you have come up with some very strange chemistry notions that do not hold up under closer examination
                You should probably go check that out again.

                Still, no matter how the FFA's are removed from the reaction, whether they are converted into soap or bound with the glycerine, they are removed and do not become biodiesel and that results in a lowered yield.
                tillyfromparadise
                Senior Member
                Last edited by tillyfromparadise; 12 November 2017, 06:45 PM.

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                • #98
                  Re: The Imsides method

                  Tilly, I know there is no Magic, but when the glycerol pre-treatment is so easy to do, why would I want to try to convert WVO 'as is' When I can remove ffa's and water so easily, making the oil convert as if it were new.

                  I found the water test results for the CaO drying regarding the Imisides method; (you know Tilly, the results you said no one had ever done)

                  400mls of reclaimed methanol with a water content of 2600ppm plus 50gms of KOH gave a water content of 3.12% (31200 ppm)

                  100gms of CaO was added and the mix shaken for 10 mins, after settling the water content was measured again at 0.42% (4200ppm )

                  A reduction in water of 85%

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Re: The Imsides method

                    Hi smithy,

                    Originally posted by smithy View Post
                    Tilly, I know there is no Magic, but when the glycerol pre-treatment is so easy to do, why would I want to try to convert WVO 'as is' When I can remove ffa's and water so easily, making the oil convert as if it were new.
                    Do whatever you want, but do not post misleading information.
                    Do not tell people you are doing one thing while you are actually doing something entirely different.
                    Do not describe how you performed a second stage reaction on partially reacted biodiesel and tell people it was a first stage reaction on WVO.
                    Do not call the second stage reaction the first stage reaction.

                    Ii is hard to tell when what you are saying is true or just something you are saying for whatever reason you frequently post inaccurate or misleading information.

                    The idea on the forum is to share accurate information to help people make biodiesel.

                    Jon Heron on the infopop biodiesel forum summed the situation up quite well when he said to you:
                    "I appreciate your effort here but you consistently get results that no one else can achieve due to unknown circumstances, because of this your results dont hold much weight."

                    Right now, about the only thing I can be sure of when you post information is that your internet connection is working.
                    Become a reliable source of information
                    tillyfromparadise
                    Senior Member
                    Last edited by tillyfromparadise; 13 November 2017, 09:45 AM.

                    Comment


                    • Re: The Imsides method

                      It is ridiculous to call a glycerol pre-wash a !st stage. That would imply that only methoxide was added.

                      Jon Heron seemed to be annoyed that I managed to convert oil to bio by using only 3.5gmsKOH/litre by using a 7 stage process.

                      if we are allowed to use quotes from people on other forums to try to discredit members on here, I would be careful Tilly. I WILL RISE ABOVE IT AT THE MOMENT.

                      Comment


                      • Re: The Imsides method

                        Hi smithy,

                        Originally posted by smithy View Post
                        It is ridiculous to call a glycerol pre-wash a !st stage. That would imply that only methoxide was added.
                        That is incorrect.
                        Calling it the first stage acknowledges the fact that you have added methoxide and performed the first stage reaction.



                        Jon Heron seemed to be annoyed that I managed to convert oil to bio by using only 3.5gmsKOH/litre by using a 7 stage process.
                        I do not remember you making that claim.
                        I would have thought it would be "touch and go" to achieve separation when reaction oil with just 3.5g KOH in a single stage, especially if you were reacting WVO.
                        And you achieved separation in all seven stages with a total of just 3.5g KOH spread over the whole 7 stages
                        That is pretty impressive.
                        Or was that an additional 7 stages of reaction after performing a glycerol pre-wash first stage or possibly an enhanced glycerol pre-wash first stage?
                        tillyfromparadise
                        Senior Member
                        Last edited by tillyfromparadise; 13 November 2017, 08:20 AM.

                        Comment


                        • Re: The Imsides method

                          Hi smithy,



                          Originally posted by smithy View Post
                          Jon Heron seemed to be annoyed that I managed to convert oil to bio by using only 3.5gmsKOH/litre by using a 7 stage process.

                          You did no such thing.

                          It is exactly this type of inaccurate nonsense that you are continually posting that I am talking about.

                          I went back and had a look at what you were claiming and you were not talking about oil. You were talking about partially reacted biodiesel. You had already performed at least one stage of reaction.

                          Of course you call your first stage of reaction a “Glycerol pre-wash” and for some reason do not count it as a stage of reaction. You almost never include the chemicals contained in this first stage when you tell people the quantities of chemicals used in a reaction.

                          I have no idea why you continually post inaccurate and misleading information.
                          tillyfromparadise
                          Senior Member
                          Last edited by tillyfromparadise; 14 November 2017, 08:57 AM.

                          Comment


                          • Re: The Imsides method

                            Smithy I think it's being ignored that glycerol strips used oil of free fatty acids and some water. There is residual catalyst and methanol in the glycerine. I will get some used vegetable oil and test if USP glycerine (only) lowers the titration number. Usually I experiment with new vegetable oil or palm kernel flakes or unused free fatty acids to minimize other factors. I made soap a few times, on purpose. It takes days or weeks to completely react, not the few minutes that Smithy does a glycerine pretreat.

                            Comment


                            • Re: The Imsides method

                              Hi Wesley,

                              Originally posted by WesleyB View Post
                              Smithy I think it's being ignored that glycerol strips used oil of free fatty acids and some water.
                              That is a interesting idea.
                              So if the glycerol is actually stripping most of the free fatty acids from the WVO instead of them being neutralized into soap by the KOH as all the books say, that means there is actually more KOH available for the transesterification reaction on the WVO.
                              That means the transesterification reaction actually goes farther during this stage than it would if all the free fatty acids were being neutralized by the KOH.
                              I would have never thought of that



                              ..not the few minutes that Smithy does a glycerine pretreat.
                              How many minutes does smithy do his "pre-treat"?
                              tillyfromparadise
                              Senior Member
                              Last edited by tillyfromparadise; 14 November 2017, 11:10 PM.

                              Comment


                              • Re: The Imsides method

                                Free fatty acids don't react with caustic immediately like inorganic reactions do. Some soap forms but it takes time for it all to react.

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