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  • Bio Sludge in fuel tank

    Mark,
    What colour is the smoke?
    Have you checked the fuel filters?
    There can be a drop out over time, even from washed biodiesel, which could contribute to your problem. At our meeting on Sunday, a member brought in samples of biodiesel and a dark substance from the fuel tank, which accumulated over time, resulting in a 'failure to proceed' of his daughter's car. After towing it home, the IP was removed as it was not pumping fuel to the injectors. A substance had entered the IP and it had to be cleaned. The IP mechanic said it was very hard to remove and did not respond to the usual solvents they use.
    The samples provided were not water soluble and they remained oily but sticky.
    Do you know where we could get the samples tested to identify the 'drop out' and suggest methods to prevent it / clean it up should it occur.

    Tony
    Life is a journey, with problems to solve, lessons to learn, but most of all, experiences to enjoy.

    Current Vehicles in stable:
    '06 Musso Sports 4X4 Manual Crew Cab tray back.
    '04 Rexton 4X4 Automatic SUV
    '2014 Toyota Prius (on ULP) - Wife's car

    Previous Vehicles:
    '90 Mazda Capella. (2000 - 2003) My first Fatmobile. Converted to fun on veggie oil with a 2 tank setup.
    '80 Mercedes 300D. 2 tank conversion [Sold]
    '84 Mercedes 300D. 1 tank, no conversion. Replaced engine with rebuilt OM617A turbodiesel engine. Finally had good power. Engine donor for W123 coupe. (body parted out and carcass sold for scrap.)
    '85 Mercedes Benz W123 300CD Turbodiesel
    '99 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my darling Wife's car)[sold]
    '98 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my car)[sold]
    '06 Musso Sports Crew Cab well body. [Head gasket blew!]
    '04 Rexton SUV 2.9L Turbodiesel same as Musso - Our Family car.
    '06 Musso sports Crew Cab Trayback - My hack (no air cond, no heater).

    Searching the Biofuels Forum using Google
    Adding images and/or documents to your posts


  • #2
    Re: Bio Sludge in fuel tank

    Who set up this forum? I composed a long and detailed reply, and I know what the black stuff is and what to do about it, but when I attempted to post it, I was told that I had to refresh and log in again. And as soon as I did that I lost everything I'd typed.
    Tony From West Oz
    Vice Chairperson of WARFA
    Last edited by Tony From West Oz; 20 March 2017, 11:02 PM. Reason: Re- titled to match new thread

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Bio Sludge in fuel tank

      I have never had to 'refresh' on the forum. There may have been a connection issue that caused it.
      You have learned a lesson. If you need to 'refresh' ensure you copy the post first. Some people prefer to write their posts on a word processor programme and then copy and past it into a forum post.
      Care to try again?
      Tony From West Oz
      Vice Chairperson of WARFA
      Last edited by Tony From West Oz; 20 March 2017, 11:03 PM. Reason: Re-titled to match new thread
      Life is a journey, with problems to solve, lessons to learn, but most of all, experiences to enjoy.

      Current Vehicles in stable:
      '06 Musso Sports 4X4 Manual Crew Cab tray back.
      '04 Rexton 4X4 Automatic SUV
      '2014 Toyota Prius (on ULP) - Wife's car

      Previous Vehicles:
      '90 Mazda Capella. (2000 - 2003) My first Fatmobile. Converted to fun on veggie oil with a 2 tank setup.
      '80 Mercedes 300D. 2 tank conversion [Sold]
      '84 Mercedes 300D. 1 tank, no conversion. Replaced engine with rebuilt OM617A turbodiesel engine. Finally had good power. Engine donor for W123 coupe. (body parted out and carcass sold for scrap.)
      '85 Mercedes Benz W123 300CD Turbodiesel
      '99 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my darling Wife's car)[sold]
      '98 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my car)[sold]
      '06 Musso Sports Crew Cab well body. [Head gasket blew!]
      '04 Rexton SUV 2.9L Turbodiesel same as Musso - Our Family car.
      '06 Musso sports Crew Cab Trayback - My hack (no air cond, no heater).

      Searching the Biofuels Forum using Google
      Adding images and/or documents to your posts

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Bio Sludge in fuel tank

        I'll just do shorter posts. The black slime is biomass, the ultimate product of using a fuel that is biological in nature. Only car I've ever had it happen on was my Triton for reasons that are as yet unclear. Solution is to remove the tank, drain the fuel, and then soak the tank in a dilute solution of caustic soda. The NaOH will convert the slime to a fairly rigid gel that will then lift away from the steel and float in a single mass so you can just lift it out with your hand. But then you have to do your fuel lines as well. It was so fine that it even got past my 1um Frantz filter, and ultimately killed the IP. I had seen this for a while - there was a fine black slime downstream of the filter element. At first I thought it was rubber from the fuel lines, but the penny eventually dropped, and when I emptied the fuel tank there was a covering of it sitting on the bottom.
        Tony From West Oz
        Vice Chairperson of WARFA
        Last edited by Tony From West Oz; 20 March 2017, 11:04 PM. Reason: Re-titled to match new thread

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Bio Sludge in fuel tank

          Originally posted by Dr Mark View Post
          I'll just do shorter posts. The black slime is biomass, the ultimate product of using a fuel that is biological in nature. Only car I've ever had it happen on was my Triton for reasons that are as yet unclear. Solution is to remove the tank, drain the fuel, and then soak the tank in a dilute solution of caustic soda. The NaOH will convert the slime to a fairly rigid gel that will then lift away from the steel and float in a single mass so you can just lift it out with your hand. But then you have to do your fuel lines as well. It was so fine that it even got past my 1um Frantz filter, and ultimately killed the IP. I had seen this for a while - there was a fine black slime downstream of the filter element. At first I thought it was rubber from the fuel lines, but the penny eventually dropped, and when I emptied the fuel tank there was a covering of it sitting on the bottom.

          Mark,
          This does not occur when using WVO, yet does after it is converted to Biodiesel. Can you shed some light the cause on the sludge occurring and any means to prevent its formation? Is this an issue with commercially produced biodiesel, here or overseas? If not, why not?
          Tony From West Oz
          Vice Chairperson of WARFA
          Last edited by Tony From West Oz; 20 March 2017, 11:04 PM. Reason: Re-titled to match new thread
          Life is a journey, with problems to solve, lessons to learn, but most of all, experiences to enjoy.

          Current Vehicles in stable:
          '06 Musso Sports 4X4 Manual Crew Cab tray back.
          '04 Rexton 4X4 Automatic SUV
          '2014 Toyota Prius (on ULP) - Wife's car

          Previous Vehicles:
          '90 Mazda Capella. (2000 - 2003) My first Fatmobile. Converted to fun on veggie oil with a 2 tank setup.
          '80 Mercedes 300D. 2 tank conversion [Sold]
          '84 Mercedes 300D. 1 tank, no conversion. Replaced engine with rebuilt OM617A turbodiesel engine. Finally had good power. Engine donor for W123 coupe. (body parted out and carcass sold for scrap.)
          '85 Mercedes Benz W123 300CD Turbodiesel
          '99 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my darling Wife's car)[sold]
          '98 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my car)[sold]
          '06 Musso Sports Crew Cab well body. [Head gasket blew!]
          '04 Rexton SUV 2.9L Turbodiesel same as Musso - Our Family car.
          '06 Musso sports Crew Cab Trayback - My hack (no air cond, no heater).

          Searching the Biofuels Forum using Google
          Adding images and/or documents to your posts

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Bio Sludge in fuel tank

            I forwarded the content of this discussion to members of WARFA. Here is a response from one of our contacts:
            I find sedimenters are very important in Biodeisel systems and veg oil systems!
            Even with one, it ( Glycerine as I believe it to be ) still falls out of suspension after 6 months of settling and can still bypass the primary sedimenter and accumulate in my filter!
            I also understand that professionals are loath to store Biodeisel long term ( over a year ) due to possible problems.... can't recall what but assumed it was degradation of fuel....


            My solution is to regularly drain both my inline sedimenter and recommend (but don't do it myself, ones fuel filter between services and to use almost a full tank to almost empty before I refuel regularity. I also flush a tank of diesel through every 6 months as a precautionary measure!

            5 years on last vehicle, two tank system bio diesel and wvo ( filtered) and steel tanks sparkling clean!
            Does anyone else have any suggestions?
            Life is a journey, with problems to solve, lessons to learn, but most of all, experiences to enjoy.

            Current Vehicles in stable:
            '06 Musso Sports 4X4 Manual Crew Cab tray back.
            '04 Rexton 4X4 Automatic SUV
            '2014 Toyota Prius (on ULP) - Wife's car

            Previous Vehicles:
            '90 Mazda Capella. (2000 - 2003) My first Fatmobile. Converted to fun on veggie oil with a 2 tank setup.
            '80 Mercedes 300D. 2 tank conversion [Sold]
            '84 Mercedes 300D. 1 tank, no conversion. Replaced engine with rebuilt OM617A turbodiesel engine. Finally had good power. Engine donor for W123 coupe. (body parted out and carcass sold for scrap.)
            '85 Mercedes Benz W123 300CD Turbodiesel
            '99 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my darling Wife's car)[sold]
            '98 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my car)[sold]
            '06 Musso Sports Crew Cab well body. [Head gasket blew!]
            '04 Rexton SUV 2.9L Turbodiesel same as Musso - Our Family car.
            '06 Musso sports Crew Cab Trayback - My hack (no air cond, no heater).

            Searching the Biofuels Forum using Google
            Adding images and/or documents to your posts

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Bio Sludge in fuel tank

              Well I always considered the black sludge to be glycerine. I dont wash my fuel so I do get a continuing drop out in my storage tanks (1000 L IBC). I recently installed a 'glycerine trap' inline before the bowser pump. I used a 20l steel tin as I have plenty of these (it also doesnt flatten with the suction of the pump like a plastic cubie will) and it just acts as big chamber to slow the fuel down on its way so the crap that drops out falls into the accumulator rather than blocking my golden rod filter. Glycerine used to make it past the filter and into my tank, before being caught in my cav glass bowl.

              Since installing the glycerine trap the amount of glycerine in the cav filter bowls have definitely reduced, but its still there. I tend to think that maybe the additional 'processing' that is occurring in the car (agitation from driving, facet / walbro pump and then the lift pump in the IP - all coupled with heating from the IP engine block - then return to the tank) continues to convert the fuel on the run and improves my fuel quality!!!!

              One possible concern with long term storage of biodiesel is if its being stored its not being sold, so your return on investment is poor. I would be loath to store it if I was trying to sell it too.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Bio Sludge in fuel tank

                Yes in most cases it is glycerine, but not every case. This stuff was most certainly biological in nature (I had some sitting in the bottom of my Frantz and did some tests on it). Why it formed in my Triton but none of my other cars is a mystery to me. I know that this used to even be a problem in Dino - you used to be able to buy bacteriocide additives to add to your fuel to stop growth of algae. My solution to it is to not run B100, but to put at least 10% petrol in there - I reckon the aromatics would prevent bacterial growth. But it's not a problem for me anymore as I now run blended WVO mixtures

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Bio Sludge in fuel tank

                  Originally posted by Captaincademan View Post
                  One possible concern with long term storage of biodiesel is if its being stored its not being sold, so your return on investment is poor. I would be loath to store it if I was trying to sell it too.
                  Always wondered about this, I never use my BD for at least 6 months and and as I only use it for starting, have some that is close to 2 years old and works fine. It is still oil, have some stored in glass bottles from each batch so I can get an idea of what happens to ti over time. Come of my bottles would be close to 15 years old and have a small line on the bottom of them of white stuff, but that's it and the bd looks great. Got some drums of bd under a stack of other drums which would be well over 10 years old and when it get to them will take some photo's and post what they look like, if they are still alright.

                  The worst cases of junk I've ever had was when using blends over a decade ago, the hj61 sahara has had the most problems and it has been using WVO/BD for 6 years and seems to have finally settled down, but if I leave the tank half full for a few weeks when we are away, have found back stuff starts to come through and now always have my tanks full.

                  One the other hand the hj60, which has been on wvo for well over 15 years and over 300000klms, can sit for months with half empty tank and it is fine. Still haven't touched the engine and it has done close to 700000klms, just keeps on going. Reckon the tank is lined with baked on vo, so there is no vo to metal reaction.

                  Also found oil stored in metal drums goes off much faster then in plastic, after 6 months you can smell the rancid oil in metal drums, but in the plastic one, no smell.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Bio Sludge in fuel tank

                    Very interesting - I'd suggest that the BD goes off quicker in metal than plastic because it acts as a heterogenous catalyst.

                    To add to my further comments, there are two differences between glycerine and the biomass I've observed. The first is the colour. Gly is dark brown (although it can appear black at a glance or if there is enough of it) whereas the biomass is jet, midnight black. The other difference is that the Gly won't go through my 1um Frantz filter but the biomass will. Also of course the gly is water soluble but the biomass isn't

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Bio Sludge in fuel tank

                      What's everyone's guess at what this is? From my sediment trap after about 3 years of no cleaning. I wash my fuel until it passed the shakemup test.

                      I have been adding Chemtech Diesel Power as a biocide and I expect Tilly will have the MSDS for that stored somewhere and tell me it is snake oil.

                      Assuming it is algae, what is the best biocide to use?

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                      Attached Files
                      3DB
                      1995 Holden (Isuzu) Rodeo 2.8TD 4X4 - B100 since April 2013
                      1976 Mercedes 300D Turbo 'The Coal Grenade' - B100 since May 2016 - SOLD
                      1994 Peugeot 405 SRDT 1.9L intercooled turbo diesel (Shitbox Rally car.) - B100 since August 2019 - SOLD
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                      • #12
                        Re: Bio Sludge in fuel tank

                        It does look like algae residue to me, to answer the "whats the best...." question, don't know, I found a guy somewhere online he sells his super dooper stuff for $90 a bottle, claims it kills anything in your tank. I have used Chemtech too, however I am skeptical on how efficient it is as it is a readily available product. Matt used something rather radical when he had the bug, his chemistry mate said something along the lines, "don't want to know about it, be careful!" Apparently it sensitizes the skin on contact to any form of presents of it, since it is present in the air it could be quite challenging. However that's the stuff you want, it killed the bug dead dead dead he said with a grin on his face. :-)
                        1990 Toyota Hilux LN106 with ATG 2 tank system (sold after running 150.000 ks on mainly WVO)

                        1993 Toyota 75 Series with 1 HDT conversion, 75l factory tank and a custom 170l under tray tank. (Retired with 680.000ks on the clock mostly running on BIO and on WVO)

                        2006 Landcruiser Troopcarrier 1HZ with DTS Turbo Kit, 170ltr long range tank currently not converted, running on B100

                        "him who never made a mistake, made no discovery either"

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Bio Sludge in fuel tank

                          Another response from a WARFA member:
                          When I leave glycerine in Biodiesel for long periods (in an overhead bowser, up to 6 months) I notice the last of the glycerine to come out is really sticky nasty stuff that does not make good hand wash at all!

                          It is like trying to wash your hands in animal fat!
                          My theory is that moisture in the air and tank drops to the bottom of the tank and super saturates the glycerine where it will no longer combine with water and is sticky and nasty!!
                          Maybe this is the stuff tony is getting?


                          However I find by leaving glycerine in Biodiesel for up to 3 months makes more Biodiesel separation from the glycerine occur to a higher extent and I don't lose as much draining out with the glycerine.



                          I recently noticed my 1000 L Pod of waste glycerine had 800L of Glycerine and 200L ofBio deisel that wasn't in there before?????
                          Was this Biodiesel that separated out of the glycerine over a couple of years?



                          Who knows!

                          My thoughts on this:
                          I disagree with your supposition that the glycerol becomes super-saturated with water. This would thin the glycerol but should not stop it being soapy (residual caustic in the byproduct would still be present unless the biodiesel was washed.)
                          I feel that it is more likely that the residual caustic in the byproduct is still reacting with the biodiesel and the byproduct of that reaction is the sticky tarry stuff.

                          I have little chemistry knowledge and I bow to those whose chemistry can explain the tarry stuff.
                          Life is a journey, with problems to solve, lessons to learn, but most of all, experiences to enjoy.

                          Current Vehicles in stable:
                          '06 Musso Sports 4X4 Manual Crew Cab tray back.
                          '04 Rexton 4X4 Automatic SUV
                          '2014 Toyota Prius (on ULP) - Wife's car

                          Previous Vehicles:
                          '90 Mazda Capella. (2000 - 2003) My first Fatmobile. Converted to fun on veggie oil with a 2 tank setup.
                          '80 Mercedes 300D. 2 tank conversion [Sold]
                          '84 Mercedes 300D. 1 tank, no conversion. Replaced engine with rebuilt OM617A turbodiesel engine. Finally had good power. Engine donor for W123 coupe. (body parted out and carcass sold for scrap.)
                          '85 Mercedes Benz W123 300CD Turbodiesel
                          '99 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my darling Wife's car)[sold]
                          '98 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my car)[sold]
                          '06 Musso Sports Crew Cab well body. [Head gasket blew!]
                          '04 Rexton SUV 2.9L Turbodiesel same as Musso - Our Family car.
                          '06 Musso sports Crew Cab Trayback - My hack (no air cond, no heater).

                          Searching the Biofuels Forum using Google
                          Adding images and/or documents to your posts

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Bio Sludge in fuel tank

                            So far most of the posts are about unwashed biodiesel. Does anyone who washes their biodiesel have similar issues?
                            Is the dropout a black tarry substance in this case?
                            Life is a journey, with problems to solve, lessons to learn, but most of all, experiences to enjoy.

                            Current Vehicles in stable:
                            '06 Musso Sports 4X4 Manual Crew Cab tray back.
                            '04 Rexton 4X4 Automatic SUV
                            '2014 Toyota Prius (on ULP) - Wife's car

                            Previous Vehicles:
                            '90 Mazda Capella. (2000 - 2003) My first Fatmobile. Converted to fun on veggie oil with a 2 tank setup.
                            '80 Mercedes 300D. 2 tank conversion [Sold]
                            '84 Mercedes 300D. 1 tank, no conversion. Replaced engine with rebuilt OM617A turbodiesel engine. Finally had good power. Engine donor for W123 coupe. (body parted out and carcass sold for scrap.)
                            '85 Mercedes Benz W123 300CD Turbodiesel
                            '99 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my darling Wife's car)[sold]
                            '98 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my car)[sold]
                            '06 Musso Sports Crew Cab well body. [Head gasket blew!]
                            '04 Rexton SUV 2.9L Turbodiesel same as Musso - Our Family car.
                            '06 Musso sports Crew Cab Trayback - My hack (no air cond, no heater).

                            Searching the Biofuels Forum using Google
                            Adding images and/or documents to your posts

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Bio Sludge in fuel tank

                              Over the years I have seen plenty of posts reporting glycerol dropping from biodiesel even after water washing. These have been from people that water wash in a 'meek and mild' way, either bubbling gently for a long time or misting. I have never been drawn to these methods simply because I don't think they are too good at glycerol removal.

                              The most efficient way 'IMO' to water wash is to really blast it, I mean really blast it either with the pump or with a compressor. My soap level after 5 or so washes on a 200 litre batch with 8 litres of water per wash is usually <10ppm and I have never had a problem over the last 9 years with anything dropping out of the bio.

                              Just a thought on a related subject here. I glycerol pre-treat my oil in a separate vessel. After a couple of days when nearly all the glycerol has settled I transfer the oil to a conical feed tank ready to go into the processor. The oil will sit in this tank for about 3 weeks. Every few months I run off more settled glycerol from the bottom tap, I actually did this yesterday and removed about 9 litres of 'glycerol', but it wasn't all glycerol. It was about 50/50 glycerol and something much lighter in colour that I would assume is soap. It seems that with time the glycerol and soap actually separate?

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