washing with heat

[Captaincademan Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Captaincademan]

All,

got a question. I am no chemist by any means and have a rudimentary handle on whats occuring within the reaction that I have been performing for years. I have stuck to the recipe and it has worked well for me.

I should receive my new car in the next couple of days which has a 1HD-FTE in it, and am interested in improving my fuel quality for the new engine / fuel pump.

The first obvious improvement to the fuel would be to wash it and make sure I have all of the catalyst and meth out.

question - is my understanding correct? By washing the fuel you are removing methanol, which holds residue catalyst / water / unreacted oil in suspension in the bio?

remove the methanol and the rest drops out leaving you nothing but the bio?

I want to wash the fuel, but I dont want to deal with large quantities of waste water, not to mention the time and additional process.

I have tried bubbling, but havent had any success with a 200 litre brew. no discernible difference at all. I think you need a lot of air, and that gets noisy. I dont think the neighbours would appreciate the compressor coming on at 2am!

This got me thinking, could I wash with heat? methanol boils at about 65 degrees right? could I just boil the methanol right out of the bio?

Now I dont think I would use my immersion heater that is in the brewer - seems a little dangerous to my mind. that thing gets way too hot.

I was thinking of another electric heating element in a small vessel say a 20 litre drum with copper pipework coiled up through the mixer from the bottom and out the top, returning to the bottom of the vessel. it would circulate without a pump, and slowly heat the brew up. ofcourse there would be energy losses which I would need to to counter with insulation etc.

or would it be safe enough to simply turn on the brew heater and set the thermostat to 75 degrees? what does everyone think?

regardless of heating method, would heating the brew be an effective wash?

and while your at it, should I heat using a remote element or use the immersion element I have in the brewer?

[tillyfromparadise Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close tillyfromparadise]

Re: washing with heat

Hi Cade,
Washing does not remove unreacted oil

[Captaincademan Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Captaincademan]

Re: washing with heat

Thanks Tilly,

Ok, so the unreacted oil would stay in suspension?

Given that plenty of folks run a 1HD-FTE on svo, I would think I would be pretty right with a little unreacted oil in the brew?

back to my original question, do you think that heating a brew would be an ok way of removing methanol?

[tillyfromparadise Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close tillyfromparadise]

Re: washing with heat

Hi Cade,

Thanks Tilly,
Ok, so the unreacted oil would stay in suspension?

Biodiesel and un-reacted oil are miscible in all proportions. In other words, They will mix together in all proportions and are not easily separates once they are mixed together. Like mixing ethanol with water.

Given that plenty of folks run a 1HD-FTE on svo, I would think I would be pretty right with a little unreacted oil in the brew?

Perhaps, I have never tried it so can not give advice on that.

back to my original question, do you think that heating a brew would be an ok way of removing methanol?

Heating with agitation in an open top container should remove all the methanol.

[smithy Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close smithy]

Re: washing with heat

Hi cade, to water wash you must convert all the triglycerides (oil) as these will/can emulsify during the wash and cause you problems, so the first thing is to confirm a clear dropout test.

There is a technique which in the uk is called a 5% prewash. (not an accurate description of the method) Basically after most of your glycerol has been removed (say 2 hours after the process) you need to add an amount of water to the processor equal to the (assumed) amount of glycerol still in suspension in the bio. In your 200 litre batch this will be about 2 to 3 litres, so add 2.5 litres of water and using the pump, mix for 10 mins. The mix will go quite white as if it is emulsifying, don't worry about this. Using a aquarium bubbler bubble from the bottom, over a period of a few hours the wet glycerol will fall, taking most of the soap and methanol with it. No extra heat is reqd.

When I do this method and leave the bubbler overnight the resultant soap level in the bio is very low (nominally about 100ppm) The method does leave the bio wet, so you have a choice of carrying on with a water wash until you have clear water (very easy as you are starting with a very low soap level) Some then just dry the bio without further washing.

[tillyfromparadise Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close tillyfromparadise]

Re: washing with heat

Hi smithy

Hi cade, to water wash you must convert all the triglycerides (oil) as these will/can emulsify during the wash and cause you problems...

You have that confused. It is monoglycerides that are said to possibly cause an emulsion problem, not triglycerides

There is a technique which in the uk is called a 5% prewash.

It is called something similar to the 5% prewash all over the English speaking world.
In the early days it was sometimes called a glycerine pre-wash??

The procedure has been around for about 15 years.
Idaho University Biodiesel researchers initially recommended adding 15% water to the reactor at the end of the reaction for their ethanol biodiesel.
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_...yl_esters.html

Neutral performed some tests on the infopop forum that showed that when using methanol, there was an increase in yield up to about 5%- 6% pre-wash and then there is no further increase in yield.
And so it has come to be called the 5% pre-wash
This is an excellent 2003 thread about the development of the procedure on the infopop forum.
http://www.biodieseldiscussion.com/f...ead.php?t=8203


Here is a 2007 discussion on this forum about the method
http://www.biofuelsforum.com/threads/3404-5-pre-wash

[smithy Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close smithy]

Re: washing with heat

Originally posted by Tilly;
You have that confused. It is monoglycerides that are said to possibly cause an emulsion problem, not triglycerides
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Not at all, Tilly. if there are a quantity of tri's present they will cause an emulsion throughout the whole batch if the mixing with water is aggressive enough.

Mono's will only emulsify with the water present and cause an emulsified layer between the water and bio

[tillyfromparadise Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close tillyfromparadise]

Re: washing with heat

Hi smithy,

Not at all, Tilly. if there are a quantity of tri's present they will cause an emulsion throughout the whole batch if the mixing with water is aggressive enough.
Mono's will only emulsify with the water present and cause an emulsified layer between the water and bio

So what do you think the triglycerides are forming an emulsion with throughout the biodiesel that the monoglycerides are not forming an emulsion with if it is not the water?

Please show me where you have gotten your information from about triglycerides causing an emulsion in biodiesel

[smithy Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close smithy]

Re: washing with heat

Gotten my information from water washing something like 250 batches since I started. Oil and water do readily emulsify.

[Captaincademan Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Captaincademan]

Re: washing with heat

Gotten my information from water washing something like 250 batches since I started. Oil and water do readily emulsify.

I’m loving this lively discussion about water and emulsions as it’s great for the readers. However I have no intention of introducing water into the mix. I want to know if everyone agrees that you could wash with heat only.

Would heating the brew and removing meth do the same thing as water or air washing?

[tillyfromparadise Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close tillyfromparadise]

Re: washing with heat

Hi smithy,

Gotten my information from water washing something like 250 batches since I started. Oil and water do readily emulsify.

As I suspected, you are just guessing.

[smithy Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close smithy]

Re: washing with heat

Since we started to lock horns Tilly on various forums, all you have ever done is belittle any tests or experiments I have ever done. You may try to play the great god on this forum but you don't know everything.

Have a look at my rider on your warnqvist test thread and you will see what I mean.

Sorry to other forum members for throwing this thread off topic but I do get really cheesed off with this guy.

[tillyfromparadise Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close tillyfromparadise]

Re: washing with heat

HI smithy,

Since we started to lock horns Tilly on various forums, all you have ever done is belittle any tests or experiments I have ever done.

Please describe the experiments you have performed that supports your contention that triglycerides are prone to making emulsions when washing very high conversion biodiesel.

I will tell you what I know.
You always claim that you make very high conversion biodiesel, and you test your biodiesel with the 3/27 test and make sure your biodiesel passes this test before proceeding.
The 250 batches you are basing this claim on were very high conversion biodiesel.
Very high conversion biodiesel contains virtually no Triglycerides
Therefore the 250 batches of biodiesel you are basing your clam on contained virtually no triglycerides.
If there are virtually no triglycerides in very high conversion biodiesel, it is extremely unlikely that triglycerides will be a significant cause of emulsion problems when water washing very high conversion biodiesel

On the other hand, Very high conversion biodiesel will contain both monoglycerides and diglyceride which are both used in industry as emulsifiers.
Very high conversion biodiesel will initially contain soap which is also an emulsifier.

If you have actually performed any meaningful tests that shows that triglycerides are a likely cause of emulsions when water washing very high conversion biodiesel, please post it.

[Captaincademan Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Captaincademan]

Re: washing with heat

Ahh - Tilly - The thread isnt about water washing at all. Its about whether or not you can acheive the same outcome of water washing by removing methanol with heat. Note the thread title. I think Ill just go and do my own thing. Ill let you know what I come up with if you lot can ever stop arguing.

[tillyfromparadise Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close tillyfromparadise]

Re: washing with heat

Hi Cade,

Ahh - Tilly - The thread isnt about water washing at all.

Yes, I finally realize that and have removed that reference

I think Ill just go and do my own thing. Ill let you know what I come up with

That seems to be the best solution. I know my "wash" procedure is not "world class" and no one else has responded. I eagerly await your findings

if you lot can ever stop arguing.

This is just a little game smithy and I play.
He says something silly and then I point out how silly it is and then he pretends to get angry because I have pointed out how silly it is.
At the end of the day we meet in a pub and laugh over it all