Pre Heating WVO before injector pump

[Tony From West Oz Vice Chairperson of WARFA Find all posts View Profile Close Tony From West Oz]

Re: Pre Heating WVO before injector pump

That's probably a little impractical as it would invovle a substantial amount of replumbing - a better idea is to fit a pair of 3-way solenoid valves to isolate the heat exchanger, which is the biggest contributor to the dead volume. I could then wire them into the tank switch so that when I switch back to dino the valves isolate the heat exchanger and it just goes directly into the stock filter. Anyone know where I can get some 3-way 12V solenoid valves?

Yeah it's probably not necessary, but I'd rather err on the side of caution. But I've just set up my 1HDT on SVO and the Frantz was causing a bit of a problem. When I got up around 100kmh iut was starting to suffer fuel starvation issues. I wasn't surprised because when I was installing it I was concerned about the narrowness of the internal diametrs of it's fittings - about 4mm. I naver had a proiblem with them when running on bio, but SVO is of course thicker, even when hot.

But I fixed the problem by reaming them out and putting 1/4" BSP fittings in, with a much larger diameter. Problem solved, but my system now has a huge dead volume in it. Once the fuel gets into the engine bay it goes through the heat exchanger, then the Frantz, then the factory filter. So when I'm switching back to dino before I turn it off it takes 7 or 8 km driving to purge the system

Mark, I would have thought that the Franz would have the biggest volume of fuel. If you have one of the Heltons it should only have a tiny amount of fuel in it compared with a fuel filter or even worse the Franz. Even a 30 plate FPHE would not contain as much oil as a Franz.

[Dr Mark Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Dr Mark]

Re: Pre Heating WVO before injector pump

No I think the Frantz is pretty small because most of the volume is taken up by the filter element. The heat exchanger definitely has a larger volume – I reckon about a litre. And it's compounded by The fact that it's not a plug flow scenario. So when the dino enters the heat exchanger it doesn't push the wvo out but simply gradually dilutes it. In any case, I have bypassed the Frantz for now anyway – even with the larger inlet ports I'm still getting fuel starvation problems at around freeway speeds. So in fact I want two sets of solenoid valves - One to isolate the heat exchanger and one to isolate the Frantz when I'm on the freeway or driving in the country. I've had a look on the web and I can't find any valves that fit the bill. I've got a pair of manual valves but I'd rather not have to do it manually – there must be some valves somewhere that will do the job

[Tony From West Oz Vice Chairperson of WARFA Find all posts View Profile Close Tony From West Oz]

Re: Pre Heating WVO before injector pump

Mark search for motorised ball valves. I purchased some for my home hydronic system and They are full bore valves which do not cause any significant flow restriction when fully open. They are available in a number of wiring conditions and auto stop at open and closed is one option.

[Alga Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Alga]

Re: Pre Heating WVO before injector pump

My helton HE's, contain,120ml of vo,measured it to see what distance had to travel to fully purge. But still travel at least 12klms on dino/BD to make sure the system is pretty clean of vo.

Know a bloke with a 1hdt who tried a franz filter, he says when full holds close to 1lt. He ditched his because it clogged rapidly and was useless for vo. Ran into him the other day when he was collecting his oil and had a look at his setup, which has been in operation for the last 5 years he says.

So setting up my 1hdt along the same lines as his, which is as push pump before the HE and then into the in line throw away and main filter. Before the throw away and main filter, he has connected a 5.5lt dino tank, which sits in the engine bay. This is used for long trips and has a manual ball valve switch over, we both have tried electric changeover valves, but they ended up causing so much trouble, they all sit in the workshop and only use manual now. The fuel return line comes back to join the system after the throw away and before the main, so it gets flushed as well.

However he only used the small tank when he is going on long trips and fills the sub with vo. For running round, he uses the main for vo and the sub for dino starting and stopping. Tells me it works really well and means he doesn't have to get out to switch over, but when doing over 500klms, he fills the sub with vo and uses the small tank for purging. Says that little tank has saved him a couple of times when he started using vo in the 1hdt, because of the amount of crap coming off the tank walls and lines, blocking up the system, so he just switched to the small tank to get home. Then flushed the system and carried on.

[Johnnojack Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Johnnojack]

Re: Pre Heating WVO before injector pump

There is no need to include filters and heat exchangers in the flushing operation. Like most of the old hands I use a separate filter for each fuel. I have my solenoid valve which delivers vege oil screwed into the bottom of a flat plate heat exchanger, the solenoid valve which is brass gets hot from the heat exchanger. So when I switch to oil not a drop of cold oil goes to the IP. The only common 'vessel' which has either oil or diesel in it before the IP is 150mm of 8mm fuel hose joining the heat exchanger to the IP. So the IP is the only thing that needs flushing. This takes 3 kms with a VE pump.

[Dr Mark Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Dr Mark]

Re: Pre Heating WVO before injector pump

My helton HE's, contain,120ml of vo,measured it to see what distance had to travel to fully purge. But still travel at least 12klms on dino/BD to make sure the system is pretty clean of vo.

Know a bloke with a 1hdt who tried a franz filter, he says when full holds close to 1lt. He ditched his because it clogged rapidly and was useless for vo. Ran into him the other day when he was collecting his oil and had a look at his setup, which has been in operation for the last 5 years he says.

So setting up my 1hdt along the same lines as his, which is as push pump before the HE and then into the in line throw away and main filter. Before the throw away and main filter, he has connected a 5.5lt dino tank, which sits in the engine bay. This is used for long trips and has a manual ball valve switch over, we both have tried electric changeover valves, but they ended up causing so much trouble, they all sit in the workshop and only use manual now. The fuel return line comes back to join the system after the throw away and before the main, so it gets flushed as well.

However he only used the small tank when he is going on long trips and fills the sub with vo. For running round, he uses the main for vo and the sub for dino starting and stopping. Tells me it works really well and means he doesn't have to get out to switch over, but when doing over 500klms, he fills the sub with vo and uses the small tank for purging. Says that little tank has saved him a couple of times when he started using vo in the 1hdt, because of the amount of crap coming off the tank walls and lines, blocking up the system, so he just switched to the small tank to get home. Then flushed the system and carried on.

Thanks for the info. The problem your friend probably had with the Frantz is the size of the inlet and outlet ports, which are just too small for VO. Mine have been reamed out to 7 or 8mm ID.
And as for the internal volume, yes, it'd be about a litre with no element, but the elemnt occupies most of the internal volume, so there's not much dead volume.
This morning when I took off, after warming the engine up I switched to VO and immediately began getting fuel starvation issues. This was with the Frantz bypassed and only the stock filter. So I reversed the configuration (plumbed Frantz in and bypassed stock filter) and it fixed the problem.

Here's what I think happened. The stock filter is on the opposite side of the engine from the HE - so after the oil comes out of the HE it has probably 70cm of hose to travel before it reaches the stock filter. The stock filter is sitting right in the air blasting from the cooling fan, and I reckon this has a cooling effect on the oil so it's a bit thick for the IP. But the Frantz is mounted on the firewall right next to the HE, so it's very hot when it goes into it, and so the oil is still very hot when it reaches the IP. Anyhow, we'll see how it goes.

Thanks for tip about the ball valves Tony

[Tony From West Oz Vice Chairperson of WARFA Find all posts View Profile Close Tony From West Oz]

Re: Pre Heating WVO before injector pump

Thanks for the info. The problem your friend probably had with the Frantz is the size of the inlet and outlet ports, which are just too small for VO. Mine have been reamed out to 7 or 8mm ID.
And as for the internal volume, yes, it'd be about a litre with no element, but the element occupies most of the internal volume, so there's not much dead volume.
This morning when I took off, after warming the engine up I switched to VO and immediately began getting fuel starvation issues. This was with the Frantz bypassed and only the stock filter. So I reversed the configuration (plumbed Frantz in and bypassed stock filter) and it fixed the problem.

Here's what I think happened. The stock filter is on the opposite side of the engine from the HE - so after the oil comes out of the HE it has probably 70cm of hose to travel before it reaches the stock filter. The stock filter is sitting right in the air blasting from the cooling fan, and I reckon this has a cooling effect on the oil so it's a bit thick for the IP. But the Frantz is mounted on the firewall right next to the HE, so it's very hot when it goes into it, and so the oil is still very hot when it reaches the IP. Anyhow, we'll see how it goes.

Thanks for tip about the ball valves Tony

If your Helton heated oil is losing sufficient heat to cause fuel flow restriction issues after passing thru just 70cm of hose, then you need a better heat exchanger! Perhaps you might add some insulation around the stock filter too.

even with the larger inlet ports I'm still getting fuel starvation problems at around freeway speeds.

With the problems you are having with fuel starvation, SINCE reaming out the hose barbs, you still persist with the Franz.

• The Franz is known to be subject to tunneling thru the filter, where the oil finds a pathway thru the Franz so the oil does not pass thru the toilet roll paper, but between the sheets - meaning that unfiltered oil comes out of the Franz.
• The Franz is not rated to any standard.
• The Franz may work good as a bypass filter for engine oil and as a fuel filter for biodiesel or petroleum diesel, but it is not effective for veggie oil. There are many posts online of Franz filters not working for WVO.
• The volume of oil in the Franz is significant. The fact that you are "purging" the Franz so easily just shows that the filter is not passing the oil thru it properly. Most of the oil is retained in the filter material and is effectively wasted.

Have you tried using the stock filter and bypassing the Franz - Yes, you have (see quote above). Why is the filter causing flow restriction with your oil?
My Mercedes powered Musso Sports, unmodified, does not have any problem with fuel flow on a cold engine. Outside temperatures in Bedfordale were around 10°C this morning. After driving off, I floored it in 3rd gear, and from 2K to 4K RPM reaching 13psi boost, there was no sign of fuel starvation. My fuel filter is in the wind from the engine fan and it does not have fuel flow issues. I came back from Armadale up the highway and had no flow issues then either. We drove to Collie and back last week, no fuel flow issues in either direction at 110KM/h, including a long uphill stretch (Roelands hill)
Why are you having these issues?

I don't mind that you want to persist with the Franz, but for the benefit of future readers we need to let them know that the Franz are not as good as some people think.

[83Patrol Donating Member Find all posts View Profile Close 83Patrol]

Re: Pre Heating WVO before injector pump

Thanks for the info. The problem your friend probably had with the Frantz is the size of the inlet and outlet ports, which are just too small for VO. Mine have been reamed out to 7 or 8mm ID.

But alga just said that it clogged rapidly, not that there was a restriction issue. ??

And as for the internal volume, yes, it'd be about a litre with no element, but the elemnt occupies most of the internal volume, so there's not much dead volume.

Unless you use a special, different type of SOLID filter media, I'm sure that the media becomes saturated with oil and holds quite a large amount of oil.

This morning when I took off, after warming the engine up I switched to VO and immediately began getting fuel starvation issues. This was with the Frantz bypassed and only the stock filter. So I reversed the configuration (plumbed Frantz in and bypassed stock filter) and it fixed the problem.

Here's what I think happened.

I think you should go back to basics and process your oil properly (before it goes into the vehicle) so that it doesn't clog your filters so often. This may include anything that may gel or solidify at cooler temperatures.

It may also help to get someone who is mechanically minded to go over the workmanship in regards to the conversion on your vehicle.

[83Patrol Donating Member Find all posts View Profile Close 83Patrol]

Re: Pre Heating WVO before injector pump

If your Helton heated oil is losing sufficient heat to cause fuel flow restriction issues after passing thru just 70cm of hose, then you need a better heat exchanger!

Tony, weren't you reading? Dr Mark uses the best heat exchanger there is - not a Helton, nor FPHE. From a previous reply to a new user who was asking about where to get a reasonably priced heat exchanger from (emphasis mine):

Best thing is a hot shower unit from a 4WD store http://www.4wdworld.com.au/Glind-Car-Boat-Showers.html

The black thing in the middle is the heat exchanger - plumb it into your cooling system and you can use the other two ports for heating water for your shower, or, in thius case, just plumb your fuel lines through them

Perhaps you might add some insulation around the stock filter too.

There would be a theory as to why that's not a good idea.

With the problems you are having with fuel starvation, SINCE reaming out the hose barbs, you still persist with the Franz.

Because empirical data holds no value to someone who is deeply in love with their theories.

[Alga Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Alga]

Re: Pre Heating WVO before injector pump

Thanks for the info. The problem your friend probably had with the Frantz is the size of the inlet and outlet ports, which are just too small for VO. Mine have been reamed out to 7 or 8mm ID.
And as for the internal volume, yes, it'd be about a litre with no element, but the elemnt occupies most of the internal volume, so there's not much dead volume.
This morning when I took off, after warming the engine up I switched to VO and immediately began getting fuel starvation issues. This was with the Frantz bypassed and only the stock filter. So I reversed the configuration (plumbed Frantz in and bypassed stock filter) and it fixed the problem.

Here's what I think happened. The stock filter is on the opposite side of the engine from the HE - so after the oil comes out of the HE it has probably 70cm of hose to travel before it reaches the stock filter. The stock filter is sitting right in the air blasting from the cooling fan, and I reckon this has a cooling effect on the oil so it's a bit thick for the IP. But the Frantz is mounted on the firewall right next to the HE, so it's very hot when it goes into it, and so the oil is still very hot when it reaches the IP. Anyhow, we'll see how it goes.

Thanks for tip about the ball valves Tony

Like myself and others, all our vo fuel lines are 12mm to the HE and the franz was on the 12mm lines. My 1hdt cruiser has 10mm fuel lines standard, so haven't changed them. The shorter your fuel run from the HE to iP, the better, all mine from He to iP would be max 15cm and those are insulated. They are all plumbed so the HE is as close to the iP as possible, not the other side of the engine bay. Insulating the main filter will help as well, if it is not close to the engine and on the 1hdt, it sits on the wheel well, so will insulate that with a sock type covering.

The franz in the friends car, never failed to clog, even when fully purging. It took little time for the oil to tunnel through the filter, basically bypassing filtration and that led to more problems.

Others may disagree, but for me the simpler the setup, the less chance of problems. When first started using vo back in the 1970's tried many sophisticated setups and ended up with a very simple system that keeps working. Of course yet to have a vo system that you don't have to change in line filters after anything from one hundred to thousands of klms, yet to work out why this is, so just put up with it.

Using a centrifuge makes a lot of difference to the quality of my oil and the time spent cleaning it, but still get black junk in the in line filter and have even had a main filter gel up when forgetting to change it after the vehicle sat for an entire winter. The oil going into the tank looks completely clean and almost brand new, so have no idea why it happens.

Even when inadvertently picked up an unused drum of oil some cook had put out by mistake, it still produced black junk in the filter. Think it may have to do with heating the oil, but not sure and am only saying that because my tip truck has the in line well before the HE and so far hasn't shown signs of the black junk, just the slime coming of the tank walls. It's only been running on vo for a few months and only gets used fortnightly to collect oil and other materials.

[Dr Mark Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Dr Mark]

Re: Pre Heating WVO before injector pump

Right, it's sorted - the problem was the Toyo filter. For some reason, it gums up as soon as the VO hits it, even after going through the Frantz. I know the oil isn't dirty because I've been running the same batch in both my Mazda and Merc for several months now with no problems. But as soon as it hit the Toyo filter it gummed up. That's why the power loss was so hard to trace, as it seemed so unlikely, given the fact that I knew the oil was OK. And then when I replaced the filter the new one gummed up almost immediately.

Anyhow, I fixed the problem by replacing it with a Delphi CAV unit (5 um) and now it's running beautifully. The temps are 71 for the HE, 55 in the Frantz and about the same in the Delphi. But I'm considering fitting a 2nd HE after the CAV and before the IP. 55 is probably OK, but I wouldn't mind it being a little hotter. It wouldn't need anywhere near the capacity of the unit running off the coolant. Maybe a smaller electric unit- can anyone point me in the right direction?

[83Patrol Donating Member Find all posts View Profile Close 83Patrol]

Re: Pre Heating WVO before injector pump

The temps are 71 for the HE, 55 in the Frantz and about the same in the Delphi. But I'm considering fitting a 2nd HE after the CAV and before the IP. 55 is probably OK, but I wouldn't mind it being a little hotter. It wouldn't need anywhere near the capacity of the unit running off the coolant. Maybe a smaller electric unit- can anyone point me in the right direction?

Yep, an earlier post in this very thread, from a long-time WVO / SVO user who knows his stuff:

A hose in hose is really only a preheater, good for making thick oil flow from the tank. Get a proper 20 plate heat exchanger (HEX). 82deg, that is just the max coolant temperature, the temperature of the injector will be much higher. A HEX will get the oil close to 82 deg. You could get a 12v heater if you like but you will ultimately find it is a waste of money.

[Dr Mark Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Dr Mark]

Re: Pre Heating WVO before injector pump

You're referring to the Helton Unit. I had a look at it - it's pretty impressive - nice and compact. The question is do I get the single coil or twin coil unit? I reckon the single coil will do if the fuel is coming in at 55. Does anyone know what size the fuel line barbs are on those units?

[Tony From West Oz Vice Chairperson of WARFA Find all posts View Profile Close Tony From West Oz]

Re: Pre Heating WVO before injector pump

I am sure that 83Patrol was referring to a flat plate heat exchanger. They are designed with heat transfer efficiency in mind, unlike the "shower units" like the Helton and other similar units.
My testing of Helton heat exchangers showed that they were particularly inefficient at heating veggie oil. Probably OK for shower water, as you do not want it over 50°C.
With veggie, you want it at coolant temperature of >80°C

The Heltons I tested had 1/4" copper pipe for the heated medium. I am sure that Helton will fit whatever sized pipe you need to suit your system (at a cost). IIRC, I tested the dual coil Helton with the coils in series.

Tony

[Dr Mark Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Dr Mark]

Re: Pre Heating WVO before injector pump

Helton have a HE made specifically for biofuel (as well as the ones for showers). Is that the one you rtested?