Piston Slap?

[Lozzer Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Lozzer]

Re: Piston Slap?

and this one. Great reference to use of vege oil (or more bio) towards the end of it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4E28hDgXCw

[Lozzer Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Lozzer]

Re: Piston Slap?

Hi All,

Just an update. After running several bottles of commercial good quality injector cleaner and also a few % of ULP in several tanks, there seems top be little change in the startup noise.

Again, it goes within 10-15 secs of startup and only occurs at or near idle.

No worsening of the symptom so will hang in there for now

[tillyfromparadise Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close tillyfromparadise]

Re: Piston Slap?

Hi Lozzer,

Hi All,

Just an update. After running several bottles of commercial good quality injector cleaner and also a few % of ULP in several tanks...

If you checked the MSDS of Nulon Diesel injector cleaner you will find that it is mostly white spirit/ Mineral turpentine/ stoddart solvent mixed with a bit of Kerosene..
If you go to Bunnings you will find that buying the ingredients to make your own Diesel injector cleaner cost a lot less than the $40 you will pay for a litre of Nulon diesel cleaner.
https://jr.chemwatch.net/CWWS/Materi...C70F01DB&mtt=1

[Lozzer Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Lozzer]

Re: Piston Slap?

thnx tilly
i recall looking into it some time back but couldn't clarify if white spirit is mineral turpentine which I don't think it is. Not sure exactly what white spirit is...maybe dry cleaning fluid.
I guess at some point an amount of solvent fuel additive is going to erode cylinder lubrication.
What ratio do you think is too high?

[Captaincademan Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Captaincademan]

Re: Piston Slap?

Hey Lozzer, not sure if you have this fixed yet, but my cruiser started making the same sounds for a while now but I hadn't got around to addressing it until recently. I changed out the driveshaft seal on the fuel pump again (as the prick who did the pump up for me 60,000 km ago didn't put Viton back in even though he was told too) and ofcourse re-timed the fuel pump when I fitted it back on. Well I went to a bit of effort to time it properly this time, bought the correct tools etc, and the difference is remarkable. it is so very quiet now, runs so much smoother and virtually no smoke at all.reading your post got me thinking. the cruiser has a cold start advance leaver which is operated via a thermo-wax plunger. basically as the coolant temp increases, the timing retards to its normal running timing setting. if your timing was already advanced and you had such a device fitted to your pump, then the timing at cold may be too far out of tolerance and you may be experiencing injector nailing (high fuel pressure too early compared with cylinder pressure) simply due to injector timing, not injector condition? As the engine warms up this effect would be nullified.once I worked out how to properly time the cruiser, its a pretty simple process and the results were well worth while. I am not sure how this relates to your fuel pump (or even if your fuel pump is a rotary), but it may be worth considering.A quick google search gave me the correct timing specifications for my pump as the info I had unfortunately did not suit my engine. first time I timed it and re-assembled it, it ran like dogs-balls. a little more research and I found the sweet spot.

[tillyfromparadise Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close tillyfromparadise]

Re: Piston Slap?

Hi Lozzer,

thnx tilly
i recall looking into it some time back but couldn't clarify if white spirit is mineral turpentine which I don't think it is. Not sure exactly what white spirit is...maybe dry cleaning fluid.
I guess at some point an amount of solvent fuel additive is going to erode cylinder lubrication.
What ratio do you think is too high?

From Wikipedia-
"White spirit (UK)^{[note 1]} or mineral spirits (US),^[1][2][3] also known as mineral turpentine, turpentine substitute, petroleum spirits, solvent naphtha (petroleum), varsol, Stoddard solvent,^[4][5] or, generically, "paint thinner", is a petroleum-derived clear liquid used as a common organic solvent in painting and decorating."

Diggers White Spirits (home dry cleaning fluid) is a widely used hydrocarbon solvent that provides good solvency with controlled evaporation.
$8.25 per litre from Bunnings
From MSDS- Low Aromatic White Spirit CAS number 64742-82-1






However, if you buy it in a bottle labeled "diggers mineral Turpentine" it will only cost you $2.97 a litre.
From the MSDS- Low Aromatic White Spirit CAS number 64742-82-1





At the tiny amounts recommended (300ml per tankful) I do not think it will make any difference other than making your wallet lighter.


QUICK EDIT
From the Nulon Diesel Injector Cleaner MSDS- CAS Number 64742-82-1. >60

[Qwarla Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Qwarla]

Re: Piston Slap?

If the CAS numbers are the same, as they are in this case, there is no doubt ti is the same stuff, just by another name.

[tillyfromparadise Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close tillyfromparadise]

Re: Piston Slap?

Hi Qwarla,

If the CAS numbers are the same, as they are in this case, there is no doubt ti is the same stuff, just by another name.

And at a very different price.
If it is in a labeled "Nulon Diesel Injector cleaner" it will cost about $46.27 a litre from SuperCheap.
If it is label "Diggers Mineral Turpentine" it will cost about $2.97 a litre from Bunnings.

[Johnnojack Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Johnnojack]

Re: Piston Slap?

Are you saying white spirits and turps are the same? Seems quite different to me.

[tillyfromparadise Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close tillyfromparadise]

Re: Piston Slap?

Hi Johnojack

Are you saying white spirits and turps are the same? Seems quite different to me.

MINERAL Turps is the same as White Spirits.
Pure Gum Turpentine is different and costs 11.98 a litre from Bunnings

[Captaincademan Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Captaincademan]

Re: Piston Slap?

Hang on, back that truck up a bit. So by that rational dry cleaners use turps to clean your $500 suit??? WTF do they use to get the smell out after? Ain't no amount of camphor gunna hide that. I must have missed something.

I fear i have gone off topic a tad. Sorry

Hi Johnojack

MINERAL Turps is the same as White Spirits.
Pure Gum Turpentine is different and costs 11.98 a litre from Bunnings

[tillyfromparadise Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close tillyfromparadise]

Re: Piston Slap?

Hi Captaincademan,

Hang on, back that truck up a bit. So by that rational dry cleaners use turps to clean your $500 suit??? WTF do they use to get the smell out after? Ain't no amount of camphor gunna hide that. I must have missed something.

From Wikipedia
Modern dry cleaning use of non-water-based solvents to remove soil and stains from clothes was reported in 1855.
The potential for using petroleum-based solvents such as gasoline and kerosene was recognized by French dye-works operator Jean Baptiste Jolly, who offered a new service that became known as nettoyage à sec—i.e., dry cleaning.^[1][2]
Flammability concerns led William Joseph Stoddard, a dry cleaner from Atlanta, to develop Stoddard solvent (white spirit) as a slightly less flammable alternative to gasoline-based solvents.
The use of highly flammable petroleum solvents caused many fires and explosions, resulting in government regulation of dry cleaners.
After World War I, dry cleaners began using chlorinated solvents. These solvents were much less flammable than petroleum solvents and had improved cleaning power.
By the mid-1930s, the dry cleaning industry had adopted tetrachloroethylene (perchloroethylene), or "perc" for short, as the solvent. It has excellent cleaning power and is stable, nonflammable, and gentle to most garments. Perc, however, was incidentally the first chemical to be classified as a carcinogen by the U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission

[Lozzer Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Lozzer]

Re: Piston Slap?

Hi tilly,

Thanks for informative and money saving advice. Much appreciated.
I do share some confusion with the other guys however. See below. As the composition on MSDSs for each are the same I guess that says it enough.

In regard to how much injector cleaner is safe to use, there must be some point where the ratio of cleaner to fuel is too high. Some YouTube artists propose hooking up a jar of straight injector cleaner temporarily or filling the fuel filer with injector cleaner. I must admit to doing this with ATF on the old Navara many years ago. It ran smoothly by the way on 500ml.

Would certainly clean something! I think I'd prefer mixing the injector cleaner in tank to dilute but was wondering if say 1lt to an 80 lt tank is too harsh.

You run a Musso from memory. Have you had any injector issues before that may be related to WVO?

Talk:Mineral spirits

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Please note that Mineral Turpentine and White Spirits/Mineral Spirits are not equivalent. Mineral Turpentine generally has a very high aromatic content while WS/MS can be specified to be low in aromatics. The two are often put to different uses, Low aromatic WS/MS burns with a hot, clean flame and so can be used in stoves and as a fuel in general, whereas Mineral Turpentine is most often used as a solvent. Even though there is a lot of cross-over, the two should not be confused. The very name mineral turpentine is misleading since it contains no terpenes (cf wood turpentine). Use of the more general name High Aromatic White Spirit or Mineral Spirit is very unlikely to be widely used outside of specific industries.

[tillyfromparadise Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close tillyfromparadise]

Re: Piston Slap?

Hi Lozzer,

Hi tilly,

Thanks for informative and money saving advice. Much appreciated.
I do share some confusion with the other guys however. See below. As the composition on MSDSs for each are the same I guess that says it enough.

I am aware that there are often different names for the same substance and the same name is also used for different substances.
I am talking about the CAS Regestry number .
As stated in the above post The CAS number for the Diggers White Spirit and the Diggers Mineral Turpentine are identical- 64742-82-1.
This indicates that for all purposes they are the same thing.

The MSDS for Nulon Diesel injector cleaner shows that it also consists of over 60% CAS number 64742-82-1.
It then says that between 1- 10% is CAS number64742-47-8- This turns out to be kerosene
Next there is 0- 10% CAS number 104-76-7 which is 2-ethyl hexanol. If included, this is probably used to make it smell nice. Of course there might not be any of this in the mix so it must not be important.
Then there might or might not be less than 1% dye and less than 1% anti-foam.

So the way I read the MSDS, Nulon Diesel injector cleaner could be as much as 99% CAS number 64742-82-1 with as little as 1% kerosene.
The exact mixture probably dependant on what half full drums of chemicals are sitting around needing to be used up.

In regard to how much injector cleaner is safe to use, there must be some point where the ratio of cleaner to fuel is too high.

There certainly might be. Maybe it is not safe to use any of it.

Some YouTube artists propose hooking up a jar of straight injector cleaner temporarily or filling the fuel filer with injector cleaner.

I am sure you will find many different recommendations on YouTube. Do you trust their advice?
Personally I wouldn't.

I must admit to doing this with ATF on the old Navara many years ago. It ran smoothly by the way on 500ml.

My musso runs smoothly on straight biodiesel.

Would certainly clean something!

Would it? I would not know.

I think I'd prefer mixing the injector cleaner in tank to dilute but was wondering if say 1lt to an 80 lt tank is too harsh.

Why do you think your injectors require cleaning?
1 litre of Nulon diesel injector cleaning fluid will cost around $45.
I litre of Diggers Mineral turps will cost around $3
I suspect that mixing 1 litre of this magical fluid into an 80 litre tank will be no more harmful than mixing 1 litre of petrol into an 80 litre tank.
And I can guarantee that you will be able to detect an amazing increase in performance.
Especiallyif you used the $45 version

You run a Musso from memory. Have you had any injector issues before that may be related to WVO?

No. 275,000km and not a problem

[Lozzer Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Lozzer]

Re: Piston Slap?

When I started this thread I was concerned that the brief rattling noise that I could often hear on start up was piston slap as a mechanic mate suggested.
Further investigation has shown that its injector nailing as per Tony's suggestion.
I spoke with a SS specialist with a good rep and he told me that he has never had to replace Musso injectors.
So I suspect that there is some injector issue related to my long term use of WVO. Not bothered by this as firstly there seems to be no reduction in performance over time and in fact the Sports runs better now than ever, and secondly as use of WVO has more than paid for the car.
Enquiries for injector overhaul indicate a similar cost for overhaul as for buying new ones. So I'll wait for now and if the performance deteriorates I'll probably replace with Bosio nozzles.