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  • #16
    Re: Loss of power

    Originally posted by surfie View Post
    Bad Luck!

    ..... I was thinking that if the problem was the fuel pressure regulating valve then I should probably be seeing a lot of fuel being returned when I was trying to rev the engine up. That is why maybe the IP is starved of fuel as Johnnojack was saying. However to my surprise no fuel is returned whatsoever on the return line.

    Surfie
    Surfie if the fuel pressure regulating valve is faulty/leaking back, then you won't get much fuel returned if any, just to make that clear.
    Johnnojack
    4WD Isuzu Jackaroo 3.1 200000km on WVO,(2020) 2 tank home built system 6 solenoids FPHE, heated filter fuel line and tank pickup for thicker oil. Mk. 9 version now and no changes planned as trouble free.
    Mercedes W201 190D 1986 model: 2 tank system, bigger fuel line from tank, no heat exchanger, electric pump for diesel 22000km so far sigpic

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: Loss of power

      Thanks Johnnojack. I thought earlier you mean that if the regulating valve is not working then "too" much is returned and that is why there is not enough fuel left. If nothing is returned shouldn't I have more than enough fuel then in the pump?

      Also, I went for a test drive to see if I can make it to the diesel place at 10kms/hour :-) and it is blowing white smoke, which I think means no fuel. I will get a tow now.

      I could not see fuel leaks or at least not enough to explain how much is missing. Or is it possible that it is getting air through the leak?

      Surfie

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: Loss of power

        You should be getting a LOT of fuel through the return.
        I think it was tbird that has measured it and I think it was about 5 litres/minute from memory. Anyway it is a lot. About 90% of what goes in goes back through the return on these IPs.
        I think Johnnojack is on the right track. If that regulating valve is bypassing back to the inlet you will get very little drawn from the jar, nothing back through the return and very little to the injectors.
        Sure your IP man will fix the regulating valve as part of the IP overhaul but the IP should not need a complete overhaul at only 180,000 km.
        You might be able to get at the regulating val;ve without removing the IP which might save a lot of work/labour.

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: Loss of power

          Reading back through this thread I do see anywhere that you have mentioned that you have removed the inlet banjo bolt and checked for an inlet screen into the I.P.

          If there is one and it is clogged with crap, it would be giving you these problems.

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: Loss of power

            Originally posted by surfie View Post
            Thanks Johnnojack. I thought earlier you mean that if the regulating valve is not working then "too" much is returned and that is why there is not enough fuel left. If nothing is returned shouldn't I have more than enough fuel then in the pump?

            Also, I went for a test drive to see if I can make it to the diesel place at 10kms/hour :-) and it is blowing white smoke, which I think means no fuel. I will get a tow now.

            I could not see fuel leaks or at least not enough to explain how much is missing. Or is it possible that it is getting air through the leak?

            Surfie
            I'll try to explain how your IP works in as few words as I can. There is a vane pump inside your IP at the front. This draws fuel from the tank through the filter. Output from the pump goes thru the regulating valve in the body of the pump to the main chamber in the IP (the body of the IP). This fuel which is at a pressure of between 20 and 150psi feeds the rotating high pressure piston in the distributor head at the back of the pump. This piston produces the very high pressures in the distributor head and hence to the injectors
            If the regulating valve is no good then pressure cannot be built up in the IP as fuel simply bleeds back to the inlet side of the vane pump. Without pressure in the IP the high pressure piston cannot deliver sufficient pressure to the injectors. Result power down to 10kmh top speed.

            Directly in front of the vane pump is the main shaft seal. If this is shot then air will be sucked in - same result as above. You can identify this by having clear hoses into and out of the IP
            Johnnojack
            4WD Isuzu Jackaroo 3.1 200000km on WVO,(2020) 2 tank home built system 6 solenoids FPHE, heated filter fuel line and tank pickup for thicker oil. Mk. 9 version now and no changes planned as trouble free.
            Mercedes W201 190D 1986 model: 2 tank system, bigger fuel line from tank, no heat exchanger, electric pump for diesel 22000km so far sigpic

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: Loss of power

              Thanks for the tips. Sounds like I should have got to the regulating valve and also at the banjo outlet.

              However, before your replies I thought that this was all getting beyond me a little bit and also I have checked everything but the pump. Also, my appointment that I had to make 2+ weeks earlier with the diesel man came up.

              So finally, it is there now and I am awaiting their diagnosis. It is great to know from you what sort of problems I can expect so that I can mentioned this to him, so at least he knows that I am not a complete idiot (well, with some help from all of you, thanks! ;-) ).

              Will post further, once I know...

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: Loss of power

                Oh my God!

                They have just called me an are quoting for $2860, effectively a reconditioning and also a swap of the timing control valve (which itself costs around $800).

                This is the problem list:
                -Pump housing worn near advance piston
                -drive shaft bushes worn
                -roller assemply for advance carrier cage - worn near housing
                -need new drive shaft - worn in journal area?
                -seal lips cut into shaft
                -transfer pump guides - blades are worn

                -evidence of water contamination - bit of corrosion
                -gummy residue on internal filter
                -timing control valve works but they want to replace it - they are prepared to wait with replace until they test pump

                parts list:
                -drive shaft
                -pump housing
                -transfer pump
                -roller assembly kit
                -2 trust washers on plunger
                -drive shaft oil seal

                They are saying that the pressure regulator is ok. Timing control valve may be ok but could be blocked.

                I asked what has caused the sudden deterioration in performance, he said most of this has been happening over a long time, like housing probably in last 60000kms (I have only been on veg for maybe 20000+kms). Never answered my question.

                All of the above does not say much to me (I was taking notes - not sure if I wrote it down correctly)? One option is I am told is for me to go and get a second hand pump - but what if I end up with same problem?

                Any ideas? Help!!

                Surfie

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: Loss of power

                  Just rang Toyota! A brand new pump is $2500, with the $550 fitting, I am almost better of paying for a brand new one!

                  Maybe I need to hunt around for a reconditioned one, but how can I be sure that it is built properly?

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: Loss of power

                    I went to see my pump. It was fully disassembled. He showed me all the bits he thought he needed to change.

                    Now, I must say that as you found out I know nothing about IPs, but I have seen nothing obvious from what he showed me that would have caused a catastrophic failure.

                    A little bit of wear here or there, but nothing dramatic. I know these pumps work on high pressure and I am not sure about the tolerances, but none of these would have made it stop from what I could see.

                    One thing that caught my attention was that the internal filter had some muck on it, blocking about a third/quarter of the filter, but the other side was clean.

                    I couldn't help thinking that the regulating valve must be faulty although he says that the timing control valve he would also change given that I had a timing control problem.

                    He kind of admitted that certain parts maybe we could leave, like drive shaft, transfer pump, but this would only cut $250 off the price.

                    In the meantime, I have located a brand new pump now for $2200, so it is still not worth the repair, even with fitting and I also end up with spare parts that way.

                    Maybe I need to push him to only change the regulating valve or timing control valve...

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: Loss of power

                      I had anIP dismantled and was quoted $2k+ to overhaul so I got exchange recon IP from Denco at Wagga for $1,600. Mine had only done 110,000 km and another IP guy had a look at the old bits and said it could be put back together and work fine.
                      Gotta fly now but will post again tomorrow with more detail. I reckon you are getting ripped off.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: Loss of power

                        Originally posted by surfie View Post
                        -gummy residue on internal filter

                        From your list I'd say this is the winner. Blocked internal filter would explain why you had very little/no return. Also this would starve the high pressure part of the pump.

                        The pressure regulator with a stuffed 'O' ring would also do the same, but as they say the reg is OK, then that leaves the screen.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: Loss of power

                          Hi surfie,

                          for sure some places try one on you.

                          I just did a complete rebuilt of my Toyota inline ip after 700,000km. The first price I got was $1600. After a bit of searching on the net I found $1000 was about norm for a reco changeover pump.

                          To cut a long story short it ended up costing $1000 to do a full reco on my own pump.

                          I agree with the others it prob only a blocked ip filter. If newer model ip's wear out at low km's like yours then I'm never selling my old troopy.

                          God bless, froggo.
                          HJ45 Landcruiser Troopy
                          Home made 2 tank system
                          Blending in main diesel tank
                          SVO/WVO Converted 18/01/08
                          http://www.biofuelsforum.com/svo_users/3667-hj45_troopy_conversion.html

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: Loss of power

                            Originally posted by Qwarla View Post
                            From your list I'd say this is the winner. Blocked internal filter would explain why you had very little/no return. Also this would starve the high pressure part of the pump.

                            The pressure regulator with a stuffed 'O' ring would also do the same, but as they say the reg is OK, then that leaves the screen.
                            I second that, for sure.

                            "I asked what has caused the sudden deterioration in performance, he said most of this has been happening over a long time, like housing probably in last 60000kms (I have only been on veg for maybe 20000+kms). Never answered my question."

                            This doesn't add up does it? Slow wear over a period of time won't cause a sudden loss of performance.
                            When my internal screen gummed up I went from good performance to 40ks top speed in one trip. Each time I stopped the car and restarted it dropped 10ks in top speed, When you are 300ks from home and 40kmh is the most you can manage it takes a long time to get home

                            If you were in Adelaide I'd get the seal replaced for $20 for you, clean it and put it back together for you. I find it hard to believe that the vane pump and body is worn beyond limits at 180,000km You are however in a difficult position with the pump in bits in his shop, but you could shop around and then pay him off and take the parts to someone else.
                            Johnnojack
                            4WD Isuzu Jackaroo 3.1 200000km on WVO,(2020) 2 tank home built system 6 solenoids FPHE, heated filter fuel line and tank pickup for thicker oil. Mk. 9 version now and no changes planned as trouble free.
                            Mercedes W201 190D 1986 model: 2 tank system, bigger fuel line from tank, no heat exchanger, electric pump for diesel 22000km so far sigpic

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: Loss of power

                              Im not a diesel mechanic and I may be nieve, but I do understand why once it is apart and they find one thing needs replacing, they go to get the whole lot replaced. If they put it all back together after just cleaning one filter and charge a few bucks to do it and then 6 months later the slightly worn part that has dried out a little while it was sitting on the bench leaks.... well we arent happy campers then when they have to do a second repair job.

                              I would get him to fix the worst bits and clean out the filter and put it back. My car regularly loses power and blows white smoke. Its usually that gauze filter or the return hose filter....

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: Loss of power

                                Just ask him for a price to clean the screen and reassemble the IP and verify it does work on his test bench.
                                If the price is reasonable, do that and take the chance that the screen was the only thing wrong.
                                If it doesn't go for very long, then get a recond or new IP as discussed earlier, and fit that.

                                Your call.
                                Life is a journey, with problems to solve, lessons to learn, but most of all, experiences to enjoy.

                                Current Vehicles in stable:
                                '06 Musso Sports 4X4 Manual Crew Cab tray back.
                                '04 Rexton 4X4 Automatic SUV
                                '2014 Toyota Prius (on ULP) - Wife's car

                                Previous Vehicles:
                                '90 Mazda Capella. (2000 - 2003) My first Fatmobile. Converted to fun on veggie oil with a 2 tank setup.
                                '80 Mercedes 300D. 2 tank conversion [Sold]
                                '84 Mercedes 300D. 1 tank, no conversion. Replaced engine with rebuilt OM617A turbodiesel engine. Finally had good power. Engine donor for W123 coupe. (body parted out and carcass sold for scrap.)
                                '85 Mercedes Benz W123 300CD Turbodiesel
                                '99 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my darling Wife's car)[sold]
                                '98 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my car)[sold]
                                '06 Musso Sports Crew Cab well body. [Head gasket blew!]
                                '04 Rexton SUV 2.9L Turbodiesel same as Musso - Our Family car.
                                '06 Musso sports Crew Cab Trayback - My hack (no air cond, no heater).

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