Hey all,

I finally RE-found this article I was reading today.

Can some SMART person please take the time to read this article and advise if it applies to the bulk of the oil sold (that we collect) in Australia.

It suggests that at 130C degrees oil has the same viscosity of diesel and can be properly combusted. What happens if oil isn't heated enough? I've seen the smoke come from my car for the first minute until the engine is warm enough for complete combustion. Am I gumming up my car until this happens? Is it going to get logarithmicly worse until I start losing power? Would the standard components even stand up to that sort of heat? The pollak probably wouldn't. Would the filters handle that sort heat. Would the seals in the IP?

This article (if I'm reading it right) would suggest that at 80 or 90 degrees (which is about the max FPHE can heat oil to) may not be enough for proper combustion. So this article coupled with this one here which summises that incomplete combustion causes ring gumming makes me wonder if a.) mixing 50/50 WVO/biodiesel or petro-diesel is a bad idea if not suitable heated is applied and b.) if the standard SVO conversions with the FPHE is heating the oil enough.

Lets see what I can start worrying about tomorrow.

__________________
Joe Morgan
Brisbane Biodiesel Site Admin
http://www.brisbanebiodiesel.com

Searching tips using Google - SVO Dual tank systems
SVO, Common Rail and Direct Injection - Vehicles converted to Used Cooking Oil

I am not sure I qualify as smart, but here goes.....
(running a two tank system)
The FPHE does not heat the oil up for combustion, it only heats it up enough for the injector pump to pump it properly (ie no lumps, reasonably thin). The heat to get it hot enough for combustion is supplied by the combustion itself, though the direct heating of the injector, head, and piston from the flame, pre heated by the bio/diesel startup.

So dont worry about the FPHE not heating the oil up enough, its mainly done latter when the oil goes into the hot injector, which hopefully will be at about the 130 degrees.

__________________
cheers
Chris.
1990 landcruiser 80, 1HD-T two tank, copper pipe HE+ 20 plate FPHE, toyota solenoids and filters. 1978 300D, elsbett one tank system.

I agree with Chris. It is the temp at injection that matters and this means the temp of the injector tip.
If the injector tip is not hot enough the engine will not run properly and will smoke.
If the injector tip is hot enough then the engine will run properly.
I can supply oil at 20oC from the IP and still have the engine run properly, as long as the engine has been running for a while. It won't run properly if the ambient is 20oC and the engine has just started.
I am quite sure that it is not injected at 20oC, but the injector heats it enough to allow good combustion.
I am confident that I could run a 2 tank system without any heating if I could do without a filter. I think we only need to heat cold filtered oil to get it through the filter. I would not try to start on cold WVO with cold injectors (as per elsbett) but I do think approx 2 kms running on diesel is enough to heat the injector tips to a temp that will give good combustion.
It would be nice to be able to measure the injector tip temperature.

Thanks guys for your comments. I would expect however svo users to defend their positions vigerously. Which will lead to a good debate.

Captn echidna, you may have missed my point I'm not questioning if or why the FPHE is doing its job of getting the oil past the filter.

I'm questioning if the correct oil temp should be higher that the fphe are currently achieving and if the oil IS attaining a high enough temp to properly combusted. If it doesn't will that lead to gumming when we think it isn't. Again I run a 50/50 oil/fuel mix. Is that big mistake?

My IP is cold enough to touch after an hour or so of running time so I fail to see how its heating the oil any further. I guess the last chance the oil has it to get the heat from the block as it passes through the injectors.

__________________
Joe Morgan
Brisbane Biodiesel Site Admin
http://www.brisbanebiodiesel.com

Searching tips using Google - SVO Dual tank systems
SVO, Common Rail and Direct Injection - Vehicles converted to Used Cooking Oil

Fair assumption
Can you be certain of this. What if there is a middle point or middle temperature where the car stops smoking, but still isn't combusting properly and fuel is being deposited in the rings and cylinder walls.

Also mayby the IP isn't supposed to get to that hot. Diesel fuel (or bd for that matter) by design typically is credited as acting as a coolant for the IP. If we're pouring heated oil through does that change its operating perameters. IE tolerances change, operating pressures higher or lower depending on which way the metal is expanding or contracting, seals melting?!?

__________________
Joe Morgan
Brisbane Biodiesel Site Admin
http://www.brisbanebiodiesel.com

Searching tips using Google - SVO Dual tank systems
SVO, Common Rail and Direct Injection - Vehicles converted to Used Cooking Oil

I'm questioning if the fphe contributes anything at all to achieving proper combustion. My opinion is that it doesn't matter what the oil temp is on the way to the injector but the injector temp is what matters. If the oil is hot (80oC) and the injector is cold (20oC) the oil will be injected at close to 20oC. If the oil is cold (20oC) and the injector is hot (150oC) the oil will be injected at close to 150oC.

If there is not proper combustion you will know about it (rough running and smoke).
If you have IDI you don't need to worry too much about gumming. If you have DI you do.

IMO running 50/50 veg/diesel on the Sunshine Coast you should have no trouble at all.
I would consider running 50/50 (2 tank with startup on diesel) with no fuel heating at all.
Or even single tank and start on 50/50. Maybe 70/30 in winter in Sydney.
Sunshine Coast doesn't have a winter, just a summer and another hotter summer.

OK agreed then, so lets drop the FPHE. It serves its purpose by thinning the oil sufficiently enough to get the oil past the fuel filter quickly enough so as not to starve the engine or cause the lift pump in the IP any damage.

Do we agree it doesn't heat sufficiently for proper combustion (according to this document, because thats what I trying to get to the bottom of).

The oil (hopefully) gets heated sufficiently to be thin enough to pass through the IP and into the chamber to be combusted properly. There hasn't been made mention in any of the SVO posts I've read that relies on the heat of the IP or Injector tips to further raise the oil temp. Should it be included in the schematics?

The Sunshine coast is a great place to live but the hinterland a mere 50 K's away gets cold. It was 3 degrees yesterday morning and it's already 5 right now. Its been a pretty mild winter. Does that qualify as winter by southern standards?

Does your IP REALLY get to 150. Thats VERY hot to touch. water would boil on contact! Does water boil on contact. I must ask my friend who also has a 2H motor. You have do a 2H motor in your troopy right? Is it turboed?

Does gumming not affect IDI engines. Doesn't fuel both burnt and unburnt leave the Ricardo precombustion chamber cups as they make their way around the cylinder and out the valves.

Sorry that sound like a stupid question but I want to get on top of this before I go down this path.

I have rough running and smoke on start up. Could that be when the gumming is occurring?

Actually its 4 degrees now.

__________________
Joe Morgan
Brisbane Biodiesel Site Admin
http://www.brisbanebiodiesel.com

Searching tips using Google - SVO Dual tank systems
SVO, Common Rail and Direct Injection - Vehicles converted to Used Cooking Oil

__________________
David

1994 Merc C250D -110k diesel, 10k miles SVO twin tank

And remember,

"if you drive a car fast enough it will last you a lifetime"

"I have rough running and smoke on start up. Could that be when the gumming is occurring?"

Yes absolutely! you need to do something about that. Rough running and smoke is very bad news.

"Does gumming not affect IDI engines. Doesn't fuel both burnt and unburnt leave the Ricardo precombustion chamber cups as they make their way around the cylinder and out the valves."

Gumming does affect IDI engines, it's just that it affects DI engines much worse. We can take more liberties with IDI. We need to meticulously careful with DI. Some say they wouldn't use WVO in a DI engine.

"Does your IP REALLY get to 150. Thats VERY hot to touch. water would boil on contact! Does water boil on contact. I must ask my friend who also has a 2H motor. You have do a 2H motor in your troopy right? Is it turboed?"

I have a 1HZ IDI N/A 4.2 engine in the troopy. The IP gets to 98oC max'.
Mostly it is 75-80oC.

Here's my imagined scenario:

Cold morning in Newcastle, ambient 10oC. Start on diesel, everything is at 10oC before starting - fuel, coolant, IP, Injectors.
Immediately after starting - injector tips up to 100oC (guess). Everything else still 10oC. If I switch to veg now I get rough running.
2 km down the road - coolant 40oC, IP 20oC, Injector tips 150oC (guess).
I switch to veg and no rough running.
From here on everything gets hotter.

"Do we agree it doesn't heat sufficiently for proper combustion (according to this document, because thats what I trying to get to the bottom of)."

Yes, at least I agree with that. I don't think that 80oC is hot enough for proper combustion. I don't think that the FPHE or the IP can heat the veg hot enough for proper combustion. I think that we need to rely on the heat in the injector at the combustion chamber end to heat the veg enough for proper combustion. In my case it takes 2 km of driving to get the injector tips hot enough that they heat the veg enough to give proper combustion.
Of course heating the veg before it gets there helps a little.

Troopy after watching the video (thank you David) I'm happy to say that I am sorry I doubted you. I am glad however I raised the issue as I would have always had the lingering doubt. Science has proven to my satisfacion that the head, block and injectors posess enough heat to heat the oil sufficiently.

Two tanks are definately the way to go. And I might refrain from running my 50/50 mix inleiu of a dual system. That minute or so of smoke and 10 - 15 secs of rough idling had always unsettled me and is proof of incomplete combustion. And now I know whats happening with the unburnt fuel I will treat it with more concern.

Thank you for your patience.

__________________
Joe Morgan
Brisbane Biodiesel Site Admin
http://www.brisbanebiodiesel.com

Searching tips using Google - SVO Dual tank systems
SVO, Common Rail and Direct Injection - Vehicles converted to Used Cooking Oil