View Poll Results: Which is the best solution RE: DPF use?

Voters
10. You may not vote on this poll
  • unrestricted use on Bio with DPF

    1 10.00%
  • Remove DPF and components

    3 30.00%
  • Blend Bio with Dino when using DPF

    1 10.00%
  • Dont buy a DPF fitted car

    5 50.00%
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Thread: Diesel Particulate Filters and Bio

  1. #11
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Brisbane
    Posts
    4

    Re: Diesel Particulate Filters and Bio

    DPF filters are required to gain a euro 5 emmsions level. 1st removing then means your vehicle is in breach of its ADR requirements 2nd from experiance Holden captiva in series 1 was not capible by the manufactures standard to run bio but the series 2 is capible of running B10 in owners hand book and on fuel flap. DPF filters are the way that every manufature is going to have to go to once euro 5 is made manditory.

  2. #12
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    brisbane
    Posts
    331

    Re: Diesel Particulate Filters and Bio

    Have a look here:- Biodiesel Compatibility - Engine Biodiesel Fuel Compatibility - Popular Mechanics
    Excellent explanation of DPF operation.

  3. #13
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Canberra, ACT, Australia
    Posts
    333

    Re: Diesel Particulate Filters and Bio

    There was a full and detailed explaination some time ago on why the DPF is a no go for bio. It talked about the burning of soot in the DPF and how bio can't do what's needed, thus the DPF blocks.

    Have a search, a topic covered in deatail previously.
    Maverick
    Canberra

  4. #14
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    brisbane
    Posts
    331

    Re: Diesel Particulate Filters and Bio

    A most useful contribution! And we wonder why the forum is suffering from inactivity of late!!

    Quote Originally Posted by maverick_sr71 View Post
    There was a full and detailed explaination some time ago on why the DPF is a no go for bio. It talked about the burning of soot in the DPF and how bio can't do what's needed, thus the DPF blocks.

    Have a search, a topic covered in deatail previously.

  5. #15
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Brisbane (North Side)
    Posts
    714

    Re: Diesel Particulate Filters and Bio

    Ok, I have pretty busy of late with work, so I haven't had a whole heap of time to dedicate, but here's what I have found out thus far. It is by no means conclusive and I am still putting a few things together. I have basically just read a few different articles on the subject.

    Ray (250 downunder) recently referred us to a webpage by Popular Mechanics. I have read the page written by Dave Hubbard (I havent found out his qualifications / experience etc yet), and summarise it as below:

    www.popularmechanics.com/cars/alternative-fuel/biofuels/4311498

    1. Essentially Dave claims that B100 is not acceptable as a fuel in post injection type DPF units as apparently the post power stroke injected (and therefore unburnt) fuel that clings to the side of the cylinder wall can make it past the compression and oil rings (this makes sense as the compression rings wont be forced against the cylinder wall on the exhaust stroke) and potentially dilutes the engine oil. Dave explains it as being a molecular makeup problem as to why the fuel clings, but I would have thought a thinner fuel like dino diesel would have also made it past the rings? Maybe some of the chemists in the forum can chime in here.


    2. It is therefore suggested that maintenance frequency is increased to replace the diluted oil, and that the oil level is closely monitored for increase in level.

    So apart from the Dave's comment that Bio is not suitable for use in a post injection DPF system, he is correct if the owner is not willing to make allowances for use of B100. Personally, I am not sure that Dave's overall comment is comprehensively captured in his reasoning. I wouldl like to hear more from him. I will continue to search on Dave's thoughts.

    Next:

    http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehicles...nce_2011_p.pdf

    General Motorsfunded a study which looked into the use of DPF and Bio diesel in varying blends.

    The major point to be taken from the study was that the soot created by Bio use carried and absorbed more water than that created by dino diesel use, which thereby resulted in corrosion of the DPF at certain low points in the system, where water would accumulate (under some conditions).

    As a personal note, I found the data and text quite disjointed in the page that I read and would like to see the whole report so I could capture context. I will keep looking on that one. There may be more said concering Bio use not mentioned in this text.

    Next:

    www.nrel.gov/vehiclesandfuels/npbf/pdfs/39606.pdf

    The National Renewable Energy Council performed a study into the use of B100 in DPF models with passive regeneration (no injection cycles, just relying on increased exhaust temperature to burn off the soot).

    It basically says that the soot created by B100 use can be oxidised (read burnt) at a lower temperature in the DPF than the soot created by Dino use, and it therfore actually extends the life of a passively generated DPF, as it remains cleaner due to a smaller soot load. It also stands to reason that your regeneration cycles (a purposeful highway drive at speed to increase exhaust temperature over a certain time period) can be shorter and further apart.

    END NOTE:

    I find these 3 articles quite interesting as none of them discount the other and all make sense from a practicle standpoint. I am going to continue reading and will get back to the forum when I have something further to add, but it appears that it you would like to run Bio in an actively regenerated DPF, then you need to drop your oil more reguarly, and closely monitor your oil level. Furthermore, it appears that high exhaust temperatures are good for your system, as not only will it regenerate your DPF on B100 quicker, it may also reduce the level of moisture in your soot, and thereby reduce potential for corrosion. So highway miles towing a camper it is.

    Nothing I have read so far inidicates that Bio use in a DPF fitted car is not manageable. I am not taking anything away from the fact that DPF's in general will be a heartache though. They are a costly replacement item when they fail.

    I have written this pretty quickly, so please let me know if I have made ny mistakes in my summaries (which I am sure you all will!!)
    Last edited by Captaincademan; 9th July 2012 at 02:22 PM.
    Regards,

    Cade.

    2006 Landcruiser HDJ100 (1HD-FTE) 20,000 on bio
    2006 Ford Courier(WLT Motor), 10,000 on bio
    2002 Landcruiser HZJ105r (1HZ motor) 250,000 on bio (sold)
    2006 Mazda B2500 (WLT motor) 80,000 on bio (sold)



  6. #16
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    WA
    Posts
    4,176

    Re: Diesel Particulate Filters and Bio

    Cade,
    Thanks for a comprehensive review of the information you have located.
    Do you feel that this post deserves being made a sticky?

    Keep up the good work.

    Tonmy
    Life is a journey, with problems to solve, lessons to learn, but most of all, experiences to enjoy.

    Current Vehicles in stable:
    '06 Musso Sports Crew Cab. Running on used cooking oil with 5% to 10% misfuel.
    '2014 Toyota Prius (on ULP)


    Previous Vehicles:
    '90 Mazda Capella. (2000 - 2003) My first Fatmobile. Converted to fun on veggie oil with a 2 tank setup. Died when supercharger stuck at max boost for weeks. Stretched head bolts.
    '80 Mercedes 300D. 2 tank conversion [Sold]
    '84 Mercedes 300D. 1 tank, no conversion. Replaced engine with rebuilt OM617A turbodiesel engine. Finally had good power. Donor for current Fatmobile coupe. (body parted out and carcass sold for scrap.)
    '99 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my darling Wife's car)[sold]
    '98 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my car)[sold]
    Parts Car C220 1993 SOLD.
    '85 Mercedes Benz W123 300CD Turbodiesel single tank using 95% used cooking oil and 5% to 10% misfuel (where someone had filled diesel vehicle with petrol).


    Searching the Biofuels Forum using Google
    Adding images and/or documents to your posts


  7. #17
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Brisbane (North Side)
    Posts
    714

    Re: Diesel Particulate Filters and Bio

    Hi Tony,

    You guys would be better judge of whether it should be a sticky than I, but from my view point I think it is a pertinent subject that all diesel owners will have to do deal with at some stage in the future, whether running B100 or not.

    Entirely up to you Tony, you have had a much longer involvement in this website than I.

    I'll keep looking and feedback to the forum when I can.
    Regards,

    Cade.

    2006 Landcruiser HDJ100 (1HD-FTE) 20,000 on bio
    2006 Ford Courier(WLT Motor), 10,000 on bio
    2002 Landcruiser HZJ105r (1HZ motor) 250,000 on bio (sold)
    2006 Mazda B2500 (WLT motor) 80,000 on bio (sold)



  8. #18
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Estonia
    Posts
    4

    Re: Diesel Particulate Filters and Bio

    Hi all,

    i have a question from Estonia - if i remove on my Audi 2006 2.0 tdi 103kw (common rail) dpf & components, then may i use a homebrew biodisel (b100)?
    I found the info on the forum about using only b50 on this engine.
    sorry for my english

  9. #19
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    WA
    Posts
    4,176

    Re: Diesel Particulate Filters and Bio

    Jundik,
    Welcome to the forum.
    As you can see, there is some debate about the best ways to use Biodiesel in a diesel fitted with a DPF.

    By removing the DPF, your DPF will not be blocked by unburnt biodiesel. If you decide to buy a different vehicle, the DPF can be re-fitted and retain its Euro 5 emission standard.

    People using B100 in Common Rail Diesels are rare in Australia, so very few here are able to comment on your specific engine. There are concerns that some material incompatibilities may occur in the injectors or sensors in the Common Rail Fuel system, so you may need to experiment with blends for some time to determine if any of the fuel system components are affected by your fuel.

    Regards,
    Tony
    Life is a journey, with problems to solve, lessons to learn, but most of all, experiences to enjoy.

    Current Vehicles in stable:
    '06 Musso Sports Crew Cab. Running on used cooking oil with 5% to 10% misfuel.
    '2014 Toyota Prius (on ULP)


    Previous Vehicles:
    '90 Mazda Capella. (2000 - 2003) My first Fatmobile. Converted to fun on veggie oil with a 2 tank setup. Died when supercharger stuck at max boost for weeks. Stretched head bolts.
    '80 Mercedes 300D. 2 tank conversion [Sold]
    '84 Mercedes 300D. 1 tank, no conversion. Replaced engine with rebuilt OM617A turbodiesel engine. Finally had good power. Donor for current Fatmobile coupe. (body parted out and carcass sold for scrap.)
    '99 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my darling Wife's car)[sold]
    '98 Mercedes W202 C250 Turbodiesel (my car)[sold]
    Parts Car C220 1993 SOLD.
    '85 Mercedes Benz W123 300CD Turbodiesel single tank using 95% used cooking oil and 5% to 10% misfuel (where someone had filled diesel vehicle with petrol).


    Searching the Biofuels Forum using Google
    Adding images and/or documents to your posts


  10. #20
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Estonia
    Posts
    4

    Re: Diesel Particulate Filters and Bio

    but how do I know what kind of blend to use? when will something broken? do not want to put on the experiments themselves
    car with removed DPF it is a same car from factory without DPF?

    just found in forum only this information about engine (but this engine in 2005 year yet without filter):
    "VW Golf, Series V (Comfortline) ; 2005 ; 2.0 TDi (Common Rail) on B50 ; 6 months ; no issues......yet. maverick_sr71"

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