View Poll Results: Which is the best solution RE: DPF use?

Voters
10. You may not vote on this poll
  • unrestricted use on Bio with DPF

    1 10.00%
  • Remove DPF and components

    3 30.00%
  • Blend Bio with Dino when using DPF

    1 10.00%
  • Dont buy a DPF fitted car

    5 50.00%
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Thread: Diesel Particulate Filters and Bio

  1. #21
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    brisbane
    Posts
    331

    Re: Diesel Particulate Filters and Bio

    "car with removed DPF it is a same car from factory without DPF?"
    No. I believe that an ECU software upgrade is required in addition to removing or gutting the DPF.
    Have a look here:
    VWWatercooled Australia go to the "Diesel" section of the forum and look at "DPF removal" to see just how complex the VW 2L. DPF is. I think you might change your mind about messing with it.
    Last edited by 250downunder; 26th September 2012 at 08:50 PM.

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Brisbane (North Side)
    Posts
    701

    Re: Diesel Particulate Filters and Bio

    From what I have read Ray, I think that it depends entirely on whether the DPF is actively or passively regenerated. If its actively regenerated, then yes agree, there will be a need for software delete, and I am sure that it would be quite complex. However if it is passively regenerated, then it may be quite simple, as the only real computer inputs are related to back pressure in the exhaust system, and km's travelled. With the DPF removed, back pressure will be reduced and therefor SHOULDNT (note that I am postulating here) trigger the need for a burn cycle, other than that pre-programmed in based on km's travelled. Passive regeneration just requires elevated exhaust temperatures associated with highway driving to burn off the soot. Active regeneration requires additional fuel (unburnt) to be injected into the exhaust system which increases the oxidation rate of the soot. Its this kind of set up you need to be wary of.
    Regards,

    Cade.

    2002 100 series Landcruiser
    240,000 Km and counting on B100, 330,000km total on car.
    Naturally aspirated, Walbro Pusher pump just upstream of tank switch valves, Cav filter with reversed fuel flow direction.
    At 160,000 km Rebuilt pump, Reconditioned head and manifolds, glow plugs. Injectors all good after 160,000 km on B100.

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Estonia
    Posts
    4

    Re: Diesel Particulate Filters and Bio

    Foreman-wizard, which will remove the filter, said that he will remove the filter from the inside (body only remains of it) and make the engine program for Euro3 standard (and brains of the car will think that there is no filter in the car was not).
    is it possible?
    and can I use the B 100 then?

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    New Zealand
    Posts
    20

    Re: Diesel Particulate Filters and Bio

    I have a Peugeot with DPF and have been using B10 whilst it was under warrenty with no issue. Now that the car is out of factory warrenty I intend to start using B20 and possibly move up to B30. Peugeot Europe support the use of B30 in vehicles with a DPF. I have no intention to delete [whatever that means] or remove the DPF.

    I do not support making this thread sticky simply because by doing so reinforces the unproven issue that biodiesel causes problems with a DPF [read scarmongering]. When it becomes proven then make it sticky !

    That said I cannot comment on whether problems would occur with B100

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Brisbane (North Side)
    Posts
    701

    Re: Diesel Particulate Filters and Bio

    Hi Xlink,

    Whilst its great to have someone with real world experience who has run Bio (even at a small ratio) in a DPF commenting here on the forum, could you please expand on your thoughts re scaremongering? Its a pretty rash way to jump into a conversation.

    I think we can all benefit from your experience here, as you are the first to come forward who claims to have successfully ran Bio in a DPF fitted car in this thread.

    Could you please inform us:

    1. How many kms on your various blends you have travelled?
    2. the bio source you used - i.e. home made or retail purchased?
    3. What sort of DPF system your car employs?
    4. How regular were the "burn cycles" required with your blends?
    5. How regular were the "burn cycles" supposed to be in accordance with the vehicle manufacturers specs?
    6. How many total km's your car has travelled?
    7. Any problems you may have encountered?

    I am really keen to hear your answers mate, they could help dispell some of the "scaremongering" you are concerned with.

    Also if you read my earlier posts, you will see that I really didnt want any baseless information listed on the thread, hence my questions above, so others can form an opinion.

    personally, I suspect there may be absolutely nothing wrong with using Bio in a passively regenerated DPF system. But I wont advocate that untill I see something that really sets it straight for me. The only problem I can see for use of bio in a actively regenerated system is oil contamination, which is manageable. Once again though, I really need further info befofre I'll wholeheartedly support that line either.

    If you think that being cautious about using bio in a DPF amounts to scaremongering, forget the possible B30 blend and go straight to B100. After all, there are plenty who have run B100 in pugs before, without DPF's.

    I think its important to remember that by using Bio we are pushing the envelope of what out cars are designed for (except for a few sturdy makes/models) and that the fitment of DPF's are really, really new in the alternative diesel crowd.

    There is nothing wrong with being cautious and being worried about the use of Bio in any car, let alone in a car fitted with a relatively new technology that is yet to be really proven for use with normal diesel. This thread is all about trying to weed out the good from the bad, the real from the conjecture, the positives from the negatives. That way we can all learn something.

    As I said before, I am really quite keen to hear your answers to the about numbered questions Xlink, and I take my hat off to you for having a crack at Bio in a DPF car.
    Last edited by Captaincademan; 27th September 2012 at 08:17 PM. Reason: bloomin percent sign
    Regards,

    Cade.

    2002 100 series Landcruiser
    240,000 Km and counting on B100, 330,000km total on car.
    Naturally aspirated, Walbro Pusher pump just upstream of tank switch valves, Cav filter with reversed fuel flow direction.
    At 160,000 km Rebuilt pump, Reconditioned head and manifolds, glow plugs. Injectors all good after 160,000 km on B100.

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    brisbane
    Posts
    331

    Re: Diesel Particulate Filters and Bio

    The information that I provided was about the VW [group] 2.0 TDI 103kw. engine common to VW and Audi ,noting that Jundik has an Audi fitted with that particular engine. The DPF fitted is certainly Actively generated with fuel injected directly into the DPF. If you have a look at the pictures included in the article that I provided directions to on the VWWatercooled Forum you will appreciate the complexity of the VW system.
    In answer to Jundik's latest post : If you have the DPF gutted and the ECU remapped you will certainly not have any of the problems associated with Bio and DPF's, however you are still entering relatively uncharted territory running 100% Bio in a VW common rail engine. I have been running 30% in a 2005 2.0 TDI VW [no DPF] for about 3 years without problems. If you are going to experience problems, assuming that your Bio is of good quality, it will most likely involve viscosity and non-compatibility with seal materials. Bio is more viscous than Diesel and is a most aggressive solvent.
    Try it and let us know how you go. The most it will cost you is a new fuel pump; about $5000 in Australia I believe!



    Quote Originally Posted by Captaincademan View Post
    From what I have read Ray, I think that it depends entirely on whether the DPF is actively or passively regenerated. If its actively regenerated, then yes agree, there will be a need for software delete, and I am sure that it would be quite complex. However if it is passively regenerated, then it may be quite simple, as the only real computer inputs are related to back pressure in the exhaust system, and km's travelled. With the DPF removed, back pressure will be reduced and therefor SHOULDNT (note that I am postulating here) trigger the need for a burn cycle, other than that pre-programmed in based on km's travelled. Passive regeneration just requires elevated exhaust temperatures associated with highway driving to burn off the soot. Active regeneration requires additional fuel (unburnt) to be injected into the exhaust system which increases the oxidation rate of the soot. Its this kind of set up you need to be wary of.
    Last edited by Tim-HJ61; 28th September 2012 at 12:22 AM. Reason: coding fixed

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    New Zealand
    Posts
    20

    Re: Diesel Particulate Filters and Bio

    Quote Originally Posted by Captaincademan View Post
    Hi Xlink,

    Whilst its great to have someone with real world experience who has run Bio (even at a small ratio) in a DPF commenting here on the forum, could you please expand on your thoughts re scaremongering? Its a pretty rash way to jump into a conversation.

    I think we can all benefit from your experience here, as you are the first to come forward who claims to have successfully ran Bio in a DPF fitted car in this thread.

    Could you please inform us:

    1. How many kms on your various blends you have travelled?
    2. the bio source you used - i.e. home made or retail purchased?
    3. What sort of DPF system your car employs?
    4. How regular were the "burn cycles" required with your blends?
    5. How regular were the "burn cycles" supposed to be in accordance with the vehicle manufacturers specs?
    6. How many total km's your car has travelled?
    7. Any problems you may have encountered?

    I am really keen to hear your answers mate, they could help dispell some of the "scaremongering" you are concerned with.

    Also if you read my earlier posts, you will see that I really didnt want any baseless information listed on the thread, hence my questions above, so others can form an opinion.

    personally, I suspect there may be absolutely nothing wrong with using Bio in a passively regenerated DPF system. But I wont advocate that untill I see something that really sets it straight for me. The only problem I can see for use of bio in a actively regenerated system is oil contamination, which is manageable. Once again though, I really need further info befofre I'll wholeheartedly support that line either.

    If you think that being cautious about using bio in a DPF amounts to scaremongering, forget the possible B30 blend and go straight to B100. After all, there are plenty who have run B100 in pugs before, without DPF's.

    I think its important to remember that by using Bio we are pushing the envelope of what out cars are designed for (except for a few sturdy makes/models) and that the fitment of DPF's are really, really new in the alternative diesel crowd.

    There is nothing wrong with being cautious and being worried about the use of Bio in any car, let alone in a car fitted with a relatively new technology that is yet to be really proven for use with normal diesel. This thread is all about trying to weed out the good from the bad, the real from the conjecture, the positives from the negatives. That way we can all learn something.

    As I said before, I am really quite keen to hear your answers to the about numbered questions Xlink, and I take my hat off to you for having a crack at Bio in a DPF car.
    Captaincademan

    Firstly thank you too for the time to make a comprehensive reply

    Now in regards to my "scarmongering" comment. In hindsight prehaps my choice of words was somewhat inflammatory but the point I want make is that if enough posts are made concerning problems using Biodiesel with a DPF then it creates an impression that there is a problem when that appears to be far from fact at least from my point of view

    As I stated Peugeot [at least in Europe] support the use of B30 in their cars with their HDi engines, in my case the 308 [and the 307] have a DPF. I'm confident that Peugeot would not allow the use of B30 [there are 'special' requirements to do so] if there was a known issue as it would cost them significantly if there was

    Furthermore the Euro 5 emission standard [effective Sept 2009] essentially results in almost all vehicles [in the Euro market] being fitted with a DPF to reduce the particulate matter to the regulatory levels. Additionally in Europe biodiesel is mandated at a minimum of B5 in almost all European countries. I'm sure DPF's wouldn't be fitted on tens of millions of vehicles if there were known issues.

    Now we know that not many passenger vehicles offically support B100 but I am lead to beleive that many heavy trucks can offically use B100 and these vehicles in many jurisdictions have a DPF fitted to meet Euro 5. Again I'm sure this wouldn't occur if there were proven issues with DPFs.

    In regards to your comment on why not use use B100 myself - the reason is not because of the DPF but firstly because it is not support by Peugeot [I'm sure they have good reasons] but also because the issues that do in Pugs that arise in using B100 to my knowledge are not from the DPF but due to poor Peugeot fuel components e.g. injector seals, fuel pump housing etc. Check in with Matt in this forum who runs Pugs on B100.

    Now to your specific questions

    1. How many kms on your various blends you have travelled? approx 4100kms on B5, 3260kms on B7 and 10,000kms on B10 [I keep a record]
    2. the bio source you used - i.e. home made or retail purchased? retail commercial spec* B100 which I blend in tank
    3. What sort of DPF system your car employs? I don't know but it shouldn't be hard to find out
    4. How regular were the "burn cycles" required with your blends? don't know [how would I know ?]
    5. How regular were the "burn cycles" supposed to be in accordance with the vehicle manufacturers specs? as above
    6. How many total km's your car has travelled? 40,000 but I didn't start using biodiesel until 23,000 [the shortfall in kms is due to inconsistant supply]
    7. Any problems you may have encountered? not so far

    * This fuel meets NZ spec and is made from approx 90% used veg oil, 10% virgin canola [note tallow content is never more than 2% when it exists]

    What I personally find ironical in this discussion is that I presume that many people use biodiesel for ecological reasons yet the removal or disabling of a DPF would result in ones vehicle emitting particulate matter which has numerous known carcinogenics [hence the Euro 5 and 6 standards]. Personally for this reason I would rather have a DPF than use Biodiesel
    Last edited by xlink_nz; 1st October 2012 at 12:51 PM.

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    brisbane
    Posts
    331

    Re: Diesel Particulate Filters and Bio

    The use of Bio [I mean real Bio - not B5, B7, B10] results in considerably less harmful particulate matter in comparison to mineral diesel. One could argue that a DPF is of very little benefit when used with Bio.

    "Particulate Matter Climate Impacts Diesel particulate matter has components that can be either climate warming or climate cooling. Absorbing materials absorb both incoming sunlight and outgoing infrared light. Both of these effects lead to increases in the earth's surface temperature. In contrast, tiny clear or white droplets (water, organic carbon, sulfate) act to cool our planet, by reflecting some of the incoming sunlight back out to space. Diesel's sooty "black carbon" particles are believed to trap 5000 – 12,000 times more heat than carbon dioxide per unit weight, making black carbon particles a powerful potential contributor to greenhouse warming. Black carbon that falls on snow also enhances snow melting and can alter water supplies and enhance flooding. Organic carbon particles, on the other hand, cool the earth, as do sulfate particles. From a purely climate point of view, emissions of black carbon is 'bad', while unburned fuel (or organic carbon) is 'good'.The ratio of particle emissions that heat the atmosphere vs. those that cool the atmosphere changes with engine power output. At high power output ("high load", for example when a truck is accelerating) diesels typically emit mostly black carbon, while at idle they produce mostly organic carbon. Because the black carbon component is so strongly warming, on balance diesel particle emissions are warming. Diesel emissions are believed to be responsible for about 20% of global black carbon particles in the atmosphere; the rest is largely attributed to burning of coal, and biomass in fires, cooking and heating. If biodiesels produce either less particulate matter or a lower ratio of black carbon-to-organic carbon, they will mitigate this impact.
    The majority of studies indicate biodiesel fuel produces moderately less particulate matter than diesel, by 10-50%. More dramatic is the change in particulate matter composition. The ratio of biodiesel black carbon-to-organic carbon is typically only 30-60% of the diesel black carbon-to-organic carbon ratio. When combined with the reduction in particulate matter mass, black carbon emissions from biodiesel may only be 20-40% of the diesel black carbon emissions, making for much "cooler" emissions."

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Estonia
    Posts
    4

    Re: Diesel Particulate Filters and Bio

    found such an article
    as I understood, with a DPF can be used not more b50.
    but I do not understand whether we can to use b100 on this engine, if i remove the DPF?
    withstand the gaskets and other components?
    please explain

  10. #30
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Cape town , South Africa
    Posts
    1

    Re: Diesel Particulate Filters and Bio

    What type of rubber is used for these seals? I believe that Viton (grade?) is reistant to methylester biodiesel. I have a renault Megane 1.9dci I wonder if they use the same rubber materials as peugeot?

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